Selling the solution: why the crafting bag and additional storage shouldn’t be paywalled

AScarlato · 12:30AM

Orbital78 wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

I would like to point out that ESO is the ONLY game In the elderscrolls line up that doesnt have encumbrance or weight to items.

Imagine if that armory of sets that tanks and healers carry had weight. There is a fairly large difference between solo and multiplayer games too. Encumbrance was kind of a legacy thing, I don't think many MMO's have had that since the need/greed days and when it took months to get a level. Some things died off for a reason.

By Mara may they not get any ideas from this thread. I have spent over $1000 in BDO on inventory weight lol.

Radiate77 · 12:30AM

With the addition of Season Passes, they could do away with the Subscription altogether, let alone the craft bag.

wolfie1.0. · 12:41AM

I look at it this way.

With update 49 ZOS has fundamentally changed how monetization works. There is no longer a $50 to $80 commitment to play the new content.

Actions zos has made to address Inventory issues up to and including update 49:
- Reconstruction
- increased transmute storage
- furniture storage
- hybridization
- consolidation of certian redundant items
- stackable seige, surveys, and maps
- reduction of bank and bag costs
- increased speed of riding research

I often maintain that between all of the items out there, you only need to keep improvement items, some alchemy, and a handful of provisioning items.

Everything else you really dont need to store. The most valuable item I personally possess is transmute stones. Something i cant trade. Most aspects of thr game that require crafting are really optional.

Besides, with no chapters In the picture is it really too much to ask you to drop a sub once or twice a year to fill that craft bag?

SilverBride · 1:13AM

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Is there really such a thing as playing ESO for free, since you have to purchase the game to have access to it at all? Unless you happen upon a free copy of the base game, no one is really playing for free. I've never thought of other players as "free to play", when they paid for the same base game and expansions as I did.

We purchase the game but can then access their servers and play on them for no monthly fee. That is what is meant by "free to play".

I mean, to even access those servers, there's an initial fee in the form of buying the base game. So it's not free to play. It's buy for access.

It's the same thing no matter what we call it. And isn't relevant as to whether non subscribers should be given some form of a craft bag. So let's just agree to disagree.

Pevey · 1:35AM

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Besides, with no chapters In the picture is it really too much to ask you to drop a sub once or twice a year to fill that craft bag?

Apparently, yes, it is too much to ask. That's not just my decision. That's the decision of most TES fans. The core player base of this game is infinitesimal compared to the larger TES fanbase.

ZOS is pivoting toward battle passes as a revenue model. I think this could be a very successful play for them, but only if they get out of their own way and allow the player base to grow. Layering this monetization on TOP of everything else is doomed to fail. Battle passes rely on a certain percentage of players having the willingness and ability to pay for the higher tiers. They are more successful the bigger the player base of the game.

Radiate77 · 2:18AM

One of the main reasons why I cannot get people to stay with the game, is that “convenience” is monetized.

freespirit · 2:29AM

So first off, we do not know what percentage of ESO's income comes from subscriptions and we never will but ofc that has to be a factor in any decisions they make.

I have three accounts, two are subbed, one isn't, I craft on all three but to be totally honest the non sub account doesn't cause me inventory issues because I just transfer excess mats to the other two.

I would have no issues with a "lesser" craft bag being offered via the Crown Store, maybe just one stack of each mat. I suspect new players would still be in the same place though, buy the game and then have to buy craft mat storage with real money too; not exactly ideal! I'm not sure whether there should be an option to earn such a bag in game too, although it would give new players an incentive to keep playing and something worth their inveting time into to get.

Now one thing I do know from talking to friends and guildies is that a lot of them, myself included, think that the doubled housing slots mean ESO+ is an absolute necessity if you want to engage in any meaningful decorating!

Now expanding on the above and considering many Houser's probably sub already, how about adding furniture decon as a new plus perk? Whilst this might not add huge numbers of new subscriptions, it would give a boost to keep current subscribers, when offset against a new version of a craft bag. 😁

Enemoriana · 7:44AM

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

At the very least a free2play player should have more bank/inventory slots than there are crafting nodes so we can hold onto one stack of each. 259 unique materials but we only have 240 bank slots... And that number grows each time they add a new zone or dungeon.

There may be more materials than bank space... but you do not need all that materials. 54 materials are mid-level and there's no real need to keep them all and all time even if you sometimes craft equipment for lowlevel characters.
You also don't get all style materials randomly everywhere.
And periodical free ESO+ days allows to store rarely dropping materials in craft bag.

I was actively using ESO+ before its purchases was closed for my country. For already several years I can't buy it.
I had to rework how I used bank and chests space, but now I play without big issues. With crafting, dailies, housing. Sometimes I use not actively played characters for storing some mats, but that's things I could sell if I'll need that space - like runes and provisioning mats (that I already have a lot in craft bag, because most of them are used rarely and never emptied stock between free ESO+).
Also there already was a bunch of inventory improvements that allows to keep inventori less cluttered.

Though I desire ESO+ the most and at much for craft bag especially (second part is housing limits), it is absolutely possible to play without, and it's a good money source for ZOS. With no craft bag in ESO+ they will need another ways to get money and in can be much worse and much more inconvinient.

Gabriel_H · 10:47AM

Radiate77 wrote: »

With the addition of Season Passes, they could do away with the Subscription altogether, let alone the craft bag.

The cost of the Premium pass for a year is the same as the cost for a Chapter. As it only contains extra shiny and not content they are likely to see a drop in revenue from them, even accounting for whales taking Premium+.

Their model is to offer the content for free, hook a few on the Premium pass, and as many as possible on ESO+ - because that is, and has been for years, the money maker. You can see that just from them doubling down on relying on ESO+ in the Season Pass model.

Juomuuri · 10:57AM

I'd keep ESO installed if craft bag and extra bank slots didn't require ESO+. It's super miserable to try and play the game without a sub, esp since when I still played, I was actively tanking on 7 characters and was keeping all my tank gear in my bank so I could easily equip them with different characters. I don't think the non-sub bank slots are enough to keep doing this even if I came back, and it's something I HAVE to do, since it would be insane to have 7x the gear I need to use... And they wouldn't even fit into each character's inventories!!

Northwold · 1:12PM

While I agree with the sentiment of the OP I'm genuinely struggling to understand how ZOS are going to make money from ESO with the new pricing structure (seemingly, more or less everything free after buying the base game except cosmetics) as it is.

So I don't see ESO+ disappearing. If anything, my suspicion is that they'll need to revisit the pricing model fairly swiftly.

Orbital78 · 3:12PM

Radiate77 wrote: »

One of the main reasons why I cannot get people to stay with the game, is that “convenience” is monetized.

Combat isn't very straight forward either, I see streamers try ESO and they always go for the mix of stats like traditional RPG games. There is basically no real in game tutorials beyond the basics of the intro quest too. None of my older gamer friends will touch ESO.

spartaxoxo · 4:44PM

AzuraFan wrote: »

I agree, and I've already said that I'm sure some new players quit because of inventory management. When I referenced U35 and such, I'm talking about longer-term players who have quit. New players who play for a short time and quit aren't part of the population bleed. They weren't really a part of the population to begin with.

The population of a game bleeds when the new people coming into replace old people does not exceed the amount of people leaving. Vet players leaving because of bad decisions is a normal part of a live service game because none of them are perfect at balancing. They'll all have bad patches that cause a bunch of vets to leave. And many vets will also leave overtime because of simple burnout. Most people actually don't play the same game for 10 years.

But as long as new and returning players are replacing active players then the population will grow.

If new players largely don't make it past level 10 because the game is too annoying and confusing then that's not going to happen. Combine that with vets exiting over bad decisions and you get population bleed because you're chasing away both the new and old players.

AScarlato · 5:16PM

I'd just also like to mention that there are so many different things to buy, that people don't need to pay for ESO+ to be "supporting the game."

I know people who have bought so many houses and outfits and have spent far more on such items than a year of ESO+.

In my grand scheme of spending, ESO+ is a small fraction of the things I ended up buying. This is why I find the sentiment of "I want to pay $15 for this and don't want anyone who doesn't have ESO+ to have this QoL" weird to me. Even if you didn't want to sub anymore, if you wanted to give them $180 a year you can just buy other things?

People enjoying themselves and not annoyed will probably find something in the game they want, and given all the shiniest new things are in the cash shop they are bound to pick up other sales.

This wouldn't be the first game to suddenly become more generous when population falls. BDO also had annoying inventory and weight limits (with paid solutions) that they over the years backtracked on to entice more people into staying around. In that community I didn't really see people on the forums worried about how many pearls (crowns) they would sell after the changes.

SilverBride · 5:46PM

AScarlato wrote: »

In my grand scheme of spending, ESO+ is a small fraction of the things I ended up buying. This is why I find the sentiment of "I want to pay $15 for this and don't anyone who doesn't have ESO+ to have this QoL" weird to me. Even if you didn't want to sub anymore, if you wanted to give them $180 a year you can just buy other things.

I very rarely buy anything from the crown store. I have bought a few houses but I either saved up my ESO+ crowns or used our guild's crown exchange to do it.

I don't want to give them $180 a year. I don't want to buy other things. I have no interest in loud flashy things or cosmetics.

I sub for the perks and I don't want the sub devalued by having the most sought after feature picked out and given to everyone. These perks are what gets players to sub and help provide revenue the game needs to keep running.

AzuraFan · 5:46PM

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The population of a game bleeds when the new people coming into replace old people does not exceed the amount of people leaving. Vet players leaving because of bad decisions is a normal part of a live service game because none of them are perfect at balancing. They'll all have bad patches that cause a bunch of vets to leave. And many vets will also leave overtime because of simple burnout. Most people actually don't play the same game for 10 years.

Okay, I can see that, but I think it's probably a combination of the two. You need to retain players and attract new ones. We're losing a lot of older players because of the last few years. I've already said that some new players probably leave because of inventory frustration.

But let's say I accept your point fully, that the population is bleeding because a significant number of new players leave because they don't have the craft bag. What would you replace the craft bag with in the ESO+ sub that would significantly enhance the gaming experience, and why wouldn't you then argue that we need to give it to everyone for free?

I ask this (here and before) because I know that ZOS has engineered stuff so that people want/need the craft bag. I don't like it either. But I know ZOS needs to make money. So if they give the craft bag away for free, they have to replace it with something just as compelling, or a lot of people would cancel their subs. But we all know what would happen. There'd be threads with people asking for this new thing to be free.

So, if you want the craft bag to be free, what's your solution to this?

AScarlato wrote: »

In my grand scheme of spending, ESO+ is a small fraction of the things I ended up buying. This is why I find the sentiment of "I want to pay $15 for this and don't want anyone who doesn't have ESO+ to have this QoL" weird to me. Even if you didn't want to sub anymore, if you wanted to give them $180 a year you can just buy other things?

I don't sub to support ZOS, just like I don't buy groceries to support the grocery store, or books to support Amazon.I buy stuff because that stuff has value to me. ZOS is a business, not a charity or a cause. I sub because it has stuff that I value, stuff that enhances my gaming experience. If that stuff goes away, I stop subbing. I wouldn't then force myself to spend the same amount of money on other stuff that I don't really want or need.

AScarlato · 5:49PM

SilverBride wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

In my grand scheme of spending, ESO+ is a small fraction of the things I ended up buying. This is why I find the sentiment of "I want to pay $15 for this and don't anyone who doesn't have ESO+ to have this QoL" weird to me. Even if you didn't want to sub anymore, if you wanted to give them $180 a year you can just buy other things.

I very rarely buy anything from the crown store. I have bought a few houses but I either saved up my ESO+ crowns or used our guild's crown exchange to do it.

I don't want to give them $180 a year. I don't want to buy other things. I have no interest in loud flashy things or cosmetics.

I sub for the perks and I don't want the sub devalued by having the most sought after feature picked out and given to everyone. These perks are what gets players to sub and help provide revenue the game needs to keep running.

So you'd rather not have flexibility in subbing by having QoL moved to everyone for...why exactly? If you wanted to feel like you were supporting the game you can still fork over money willingly. Or not. I'm not really seeing how this thought process plays out.

You could just as easily make a new decision as to whether you'd like to sub or not based on whatever they offer.

AzuraFan wrote: »

I don't sub to support ZOS, just like I don't buy groceries to support the grocery store, or books to support Amazon.I buy stuff because that stuff has value to me. ZOS is a business, not a charity or a cause. I sub because it has stuff that I value, stuff that enhances my gaming experience. If that stuff goes away, I stop subbing. I wouldn't then force myself to spend the same amount of money on other stuff that I don't really want or need.

Sounds like a win for you then.

Aisleyne · 5:51PM

I've been an ESO+ subscriber the entire time I've played, but I have to admit that in the last few years I've fallen more into maintenance mode. I login every day to do my game chores and events, but haven't felt particularly engaged with the game. I personally find gameplay unpleasant enough without the craft bag that it affects my willingness to play.

Last year was the first year I didn't buy the new content and started seriously questioning if I should continue supporting the game. I decided to cancel my yearly sub and see where the game's new direction goes. The problem with the current system is that for someone like me who is on the fence, instead of sticking around until the content draws us back in, the inconvenience factor just discourages reengagement.

The truth is even leaving the overall craft bag system under ESO+ things could still be improved. Why must things only stack to 200 instead of 999? Why can't the system draw from crafting materials in our inventory first instead of from the craft bag? These things alone would make the system much more forgiving. I agree with others that it's a bad feeling and I know many people I've introduced to the game decided not to continue because of it. In this time when they're trying to focus on quality of life changes, I hope they'll at least consider moving in that direction. And I hope it's soon enough that my friends and I are still playing to see it.

AzuraFan · 5:54PM

AScarlato wrote: »

Sounds like a win for you then.

Not sure what you mean by that. Would I like the craft bag to be free? Yes. Does it make sense for it to be free under the current monetization model of ESO+? No. Not unless it's replaced with something compelling, but that'll just bring us back to square one with people wanting whatever it is to be free.

If you want the craft bag to be free and ZOS to make money (without arguing for charity donations), what's your solution?

AScarlato · 5:55PM

AzuraFan wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Sounds like a win for you then.

Not sure what you mean by that. Would I like the craft bag to be free? Yes. Does it make sense for it to be free under the current monetization model of ESO+? No. Not unless it's replaced with something compelling, but that'll just bring us back to square one with people wanting whatever it is to be free.

If you want the craft bag to be free and ZOS to make money (without arguing for charity donations), what's your solution?

I already said it several times. Develop quality content we want to pay for. Simple as that. Not have a year of flimsy new content that has to be free. Probably why this game is now on MassivelyOP's Stormiest Future 2026 list - one of the few places that talk about MMOs more broadly.

This game is known to be one of the most heavily montetized MMOs there is. It doesn't need to implement every unscrupulous tactic under the sun and get support for doing so. I just watched a video today about ESO that said this too, and they make money selling "member only" ESO builds.

AzuraFan · 6:00PM

AScarlato wrote: »

I already said it several times. Develop quality content we want to pay for. Simple as that. Not have a year of flimsy new content that has to be free.

We both know that's not going to happen. They've gone in a different direction. They're not charging for content anymore, so that's off the table. In fact, it makes retaining subscribers even more important. So what's your solution?

This game is known to be one of the most heavily montetized MMOs there is. It doesn't need to implement every unscrupulous tactic under the sun and get support for doing so.

Okay, but what's your solution? How would you replace the revenue that would be lost due to a significant number of cancellations of ESO+?

AScarlato · 6:03PM

AzuraFan wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I already said it several times. Develop quality content we want to pay for. Simple as that. Not have a year of flimsy new content that has to be free.

We both know that's not going to happen. They've gone in a different direction. They're not charging for content anymore, so that's off the table. In fact, it makes retaining subscribers even more important. So what's your solution?

This game is known to be one of the most heavily montetized MMOs there is. It doesn't need to implement every unscrupulous tactic under the sun and get support for doing so.

Okay, but what's your solution? How would you replace the revenue that would be lost due to a significant number of cancellations of ESO+?

I already said it. "The game needs subs so it can edge closer and closer to maintenance mode" is kinda crazy to me.

If "earn an honest buck with quality content" doesn't work for you as an answer, I have nothing for you.

AzuraFan · 6:05PM

AScarlato wrote: »

I already said it. "The game needs subs so it can edge closer and closer to maintenance mode" is kinda crazy to me.

That's not what I said. Putting quotes around it doesn't make it so.

You suggested a solution that isn't viable given the new direction ZOS is going in, i.e. not charging for content. So, what's your solution? How would you offer the craft bag for free and retain ESO+ subscribers?

It's perfectly fine to say you don't have one. I don't either. Which is why I'm not arguing that the craft bag be free. Would I like it to be free? Sure. I could cancel my sub and save money. But I'd like a lot of things I can't have or that don't make sense.

AScarlato · 6:06PM

AzuraFan wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I already said it. "The game needs subs so it can edge closer and closer to maintenance mode" is kinda crazy to me.

That's not what I said. Putting quotes around it doesn't make it so.

You suggested a solution that isn't viable given the new direction ZOS is going in, i.e. not charging for content. So, what's your solution? How would you offer the craft bag for free and retain ESO+ subscribers?

It's perfectly fine to say you don't have one. I don't either. Which is why I'm not arguing that the craft bag be free. Would I like it to be free? Sure. I could cancel my sub and save money. But I'd like a lot of things I can't have or that don't make sense.

All you offered is "that's not going to happen" as though making this decision to invest less and less into actual content was the only solution for the game's future. I think this was a terrible decision for the game's future, and no one will be buying subs at all when they run out of things to do because they have less and less development.

I disagree. Anyway,

redlink1979 · 6:07PM

ESO+ sub doesn't cost much, per day it's like the cost a cup of coffee. I have no issues with it.
And I'd rather have this than a mandatory paid sub to play the game, as it happened before.

AzuraFan · 6:10PM

AScarlato wrote: »

All you offered is "that's not going to happen" as though making this decision was necessary is a forgone conclusion for the game's future. Anyway,

Well, we don't know what's going to happen in the future. We can only discuss it based on what we know now. Your solution isn't viable given what we know.

Anyway, you don't have a solution. Neither do I. I want the game to survive, and because they're no longer going to charge for content (could be risky, we'll see), retaining ESO+ subscribers is super important. They can't offer the craft bag for free, even though we'd all like it to be so. Unless they come up with something super compelling to replace it, but...then people will want it for free.

Anything could happen in the future, but that's not a discussion we can have right now.

AScarlato · 6:16PM

AzuraFan wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

All you offered is "that's not going to happen" as though making this decision was necessary is a forgone conclusion for the game's future. Anyway,

Well, we don't know what's going to happen in the future. We can only discuss it based on what we know now. Your solution isn't viable given what we know.

Anyway, you don't have a solution. Neither do I. I want the game to survive, and because they're no longer going to charge for content (could be risky, we'll see), retaining ESO+ subscribers is super important. They can't offer the craft bag for free, even though we'd all like it to be so. Unless they come up with something super compelling to replace it, but...then people will want it for free.

Anything could happen in the future, but that's not a discussion we can have right now.

The problem is you keep asking me for a solution about only one part of ESO's revenue. I offered a solution that would increase revenue for everything else it sells, which we all know is an awful lot. This is not a sub-only game that doesn't monetize 100 other things.

I don't care if less people pay for a sub, I really dont. Especially if said subs rely on what to me is an offputting business practice. Especially if less and less play ESO at all due to there being no new content, a presently very mid reputation with press about how last year went and them needing 2 years to balance the game. Also news of abandoning chapters and just offering random things for free is not really exciting to draw in new people either. It sounds like it's on a downward spiral.

As an aside, as a customer and not a Microsoft shareholder or paid employee, part of me also thinks "not my problem." We are allowed to be unhappy with certain practices and not have to provide alternatives to increase their revenue streams. I give them money - not the other way around.

wolfie1.0. · 6:21PM

AzuraFan wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I already said it several times. Develop quality content we want to pay for. Simple as that. Not have a year of flimsy new content that has to be free.

We both know that's not going to happen. They've gone in a different direction. They're not charging for content anymore, so that's off the table. In fact, it makes retaining subscribers even more important. So what's your solution?

This game is known to be one of the most heavily montetized MMOs there is. It doesn't need to implement every unscrupulous tactic under the sun and get support for doing so.

Okay, but what's your solution? How would you replace the revenue that would be lost due to a significant number of cancellations of ESO+?

Here is what i think would clear things up and solve some issues, i dont know how much of this is doable:
- increase base bank cap to 300 (600 with sub)
- clean up mat lists and consolidate mats using jewelry levels as a transition point.
- increase stack sizes to 400 OR reduce mat consumption costs for crafting.
- add a limited mat storage bag to the upcoming Bazaar using the new trade currency. Make it obtainable, limit how much can be placed in with a cap, and limit how many types of mats can be placed. But make it a bit more accessible.
- include a free tome (premium) access coin for every 3 months subbed to eso+
- reduce crowns received from eso plus per month from 1650 to 1500 to compensate for added value.

Thoughts on these? Just some ideas im shooting out there.

AzuraFan · 6:31PM

AScarlato wrote: »

The problem is you keep asking me for a solution about only one part of ESO's revenue.

Yes, because we're discussing paywalling the craft bag, which means we're discussing ESO+ subs and whether there's a way to retain them if the craft bag went free.

Anyway, you seem to be the person who needs to win the argument with the random stranger on the internet. So...you win! Congrats!

AScarlato · 6:32PM

AzuraFan wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

The problem is you keep asking me for a solution about only one part of ESO's revenue.

Yes, because we're discussing paywalling the craft bag, which means we're discussing ESO+ subs and whether there's a way to retain them if the craft bag went free.

Anyway, you seem to be the person who needs to win the argument with the random stranger on the internet. So...you win! Congrats!

But said craft bag doesn't exist in a vacuum. Thank you for your concession and good day

Also sorry - if I had more to do in game at the moment I'd be here less.