Selling the solution: why the crafting bag and additional storage shouldn’t be paywalled

SilverBride · January 14

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

If the craft bag is your main reason to sub then this would allow you to not sub.

That is exactly my point. The craft bag is the most desired of the ESO+ perks by many players, and diminishing it's value could cause a significant drop in revenue.

Gabriel_H · January 14

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

The game is monetized enough already, and playing without ESO+ feels awful. It’s even worse for lapsed subscribers, who log in to find their banks effectively unusable. I personally spent over an hour sorting mine after my subscription lapsed.

It's supposed to feel awful. ESO+ is the primary predictable revenue stream. It's the reason they are moving to a free content model; to hook players in the hope they then take ESO+. Revenue doesn't just have to be high these days it needs to be predictable too.

AScarlato · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

If the craft bag is your main reason to sub then this would allow you to not sub.

That is exactly my point. The craft bag is the most desired of the ESO+ perks by many players, and diminishing it's value could cause a significant drop in revenue.

This would be more concerning to me if they were returning more of their $2+B to the ESO team, rather than funneling a great deal to shareholders and projects they cancel.

At this point we are down to random free content and QoL for an entire year. It doesn't say to me that this game benefits all that much from excessive revenue.

And again, they could increase revenue from quality content or other perks, not creating nuisances. I want ESO to succeed - but for me that means having a quality offering. Not tactics like this and lootboxes.

Gabriel_H · January 14

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

You could see the same dynamic with the content giveaways and now incorporation into base game. There, ZOS decided accessible content was more valuable than the sub price + crown sales of restricted content. I hope they consider the same for the craft bag and general gameplay friction.

No, they decided free content was a hook for new players, that they could then reel in on the subscription, generating not only more revenue in the long-term, but also predictable revenue.

A large draw of ESO+ is the extra inventory/bank space and craft bag. There is nothing they can offer that has the same appeal.

SneaK · January 14

1000% OP

Craft bag shouldn’t be exclusive to real life currency, it’s absurd tbh. I would think it either should just be a given or something you unlock at reaching level 50. It’s sickening to think ZOS has made millions selling it.

Gabriel_H · January 14

AScarlato wrote: »

This would be more concerning to me if they were returning more of their $2+B to the ESO team, rather than funneling a great deal to shareholders and projects they cancel.

But that isn't how the world is. You can aspire to the world you want, but you also have to deal with the world as it is.

SilverBride · January 14

Pauwin wrote: »

There is just so much stuff to pick up in this game, it feels like every single QOL update included something about items becoming stackable because players rightfully complained (siege, maps, writs, surveys, what else ?), or removing items from inventory (collectibles, sticker books/transmute...). But inventories are still full ! Crafting mats would be the next and maybe final step

We don't need to pick up all the stuff. And not everyone's inventories are full. My bank and chests are not even close to full, nor do I have storage houses for furnishings. Inventory management is not a game created problem and ESO+ perks should not be devalued to address it.

AScarlato · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

Pauwin wrote: »

There is just so much stuff to pick up in this game, it feels like every single QOL update included something about items becoming stackable because players rightfully complained (siege, maps, writs, surveys, what else ?), or removing items from inventory (collectibles, sticker books/transmute...). But inventories are still full ! Crafting mats would be the next and maybe final step

Inventory management is not a game created problem

What? The game design is absolutely responsible for this problem.

Your solution to turn off loot-all would just replace the hassle of dealing with our inventory on the backend with having to loot 1000 times and cherry pick through all the garbage on each thing we loot.

Desiato · January 14

I think it's possible the craft bag paradigm hurts the game as much as it helps.

Why are F2P and B2P games so widespread? Because there is value in having people play a game. In fact, other players is *the* essential feature of a multiplayer game! The more the better.

It's pretty clear to me that ESO has been engineered to present the player with inventory discomfort as an incentive to sub. However, it's way too much of a pain, even when I have ESO+ I feel it and HATE IT. Managing inventory is the single biggest pain point in the game for me.

I recently played my storage account for a month. It only had level 4 characters when I started, so it gave me a feel for the new user experience. I levelled it to about CP 500 with max fg/mg/undaunted/scribing/subclassing.

I was really impressed by how good of a game ESO is to start fresh with! I felt it should be more popular, but I knew a big reason why it wasn't! My adventures with my undeveloped account were constantly stymied by inventory issues. The would be compounded for new players who might feel stress about what to sell and delete. Especially when the game is warning them against it! (holiday writs!)

If this new player happened to be playing during a gift box event, they are probably having a miserable time.

Modern gamers are used to better B2P experiences than this. I would bet the tedium of managing inventory in ESO drives more players away than it encourages to sub.

AlexanderDeLarge · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

Pauwin wrote: »

There is just so much stuff to pick up in this game, it feels like every single QOL update included something about items becoming stackable because players rightfully complained (siege, maps, writs, surveys, what else ?), or removing items from inventory (collectibles, sticker books/transmute...). But inventories are still full ! Crafting mats would be the next and maybe final step

We don't need to pick up all the stuff. And not everyone's inventories are full. My bank and chests are not even close to full, nor do I have storage houses for furnishings. Inventory management is not a game created problem and ESO+ perks should not be devalued to address it.

You say that as there is literally a link embedded in the OP showing more material nodes than there are bank and inventory slots available to players in the game.
"yOu CaN pLaY ThIS gAMe wIThOuT thE CrAfTInG baG!"

SilverBride wrote: »

We don't need to pick up all the stuff.

But you can, and probably do, which puts me at a severe economic and character progression disadvantage. I'm comfortable declaring that as Pay2Win.

MaraxusTheOrc · January 14

The craft bag was fine for monetization for a couple of years, but with each passing year they have added a handful of style components that quickly add up. I’d argue a free craft bag for style components and paid full craft bag isn’t an unreasonable compromise.

SilverBride · January 14

AScarlato wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Pauwin wrote: »

There is just so much stuff to pick up in this game, it feels like every single QOL update included something about items becoming stackable because players rightfully complained (siege, maps, writs, surveys, what else ?), or removing items from inventory (collectibles, sticker books/transmute...). But inventories are still full ! Crafting mats would be the next and maybe final step

Inventory management is not a game created problem

What? The game design is absolutely responsible for this problem.

Your solution to turn off autoloot would just replace the hassle of dealing with our inventory on the backend with having to loot 1000 times and cherry pick through all the garbage on each thing we loot.

The game doesn't make players pick up and keep everything they find as they play. The stickerbook provided a way to decrease space needed to store gear sets, so they have addressed some of these concerns. But players keeping everything and not getting rid of unused items is the biggest cause of inventory problems.

Also, I never mentioned autoloot. I don't use it but I do pick up everything as I'm out questing etc.. But when I'm done for the day I go use our guild's ragpicker and deconstruct everything, then go to the merchant and sell everything else. I rarely find anything valuable enough to keep and it only takes about 2 minutes.

spartaxoxo · January 14

Yeah it's one of the biggest cited pain points I have seen. It drives paying customers out in droves. They should make a limited craft bag for non-subs so they can play easier. Happy playing customers often convert to happy paying ones

AScarlato · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Pauwin wrote: »

There is just so much stuff to pick up in this game, it feels like every single QOL update included something about items becoming stackable because players rightfully complained (siege, maps, writs, surveys, what else ?), or removing items from inventory (collectibles, sticker books/transmute...). But inventories are still full ! Crafting mats would be the next and maybe final step

Inventory management is not a game created problem

What?

The game doesn't make players pick up and keep everything they find as they play. The stickerbook provided a way to decrease space needed to store gear sets, so they have addressed some of these concerns. But players keeping everything and not getting rid of unused items is the biggest cause of inventory problems.

So the blame is on the players for overlooting and using the loot-all feature (which they added for good reason). Instead we should have everyone wait for us as we individually loot each mob and carefully select what we pick up.

This would take even more time then what we have to do already if you don't have the craft bag. Even with ESO+ my bags fill up constantly and the game would just be outright unplayable if I added all those extra items.

Tandor · January 14

MaraxusTheOrc wrote: »

The craft bag was fine for monetization for a couple of years, but with each passing year they have added a handful of style components that quickly add up. I’d argue a free craft bag for style components and paid full craft bag isn’t an unreasonable compromise.

I wouldn't disagree with scrapping a lot of the redundant style components, they must confuse new players as much anything else and a major factor in inventory management. There needs to be a decent amount of variety and choice over and above what's needed for meta builds but it has got somewhat out of hand.

SilverBride · January 14

AScarlato wrote: »

So the blame is on the players for overlooting and using the loot-all feature (which they added for good reason). Instead we should have everyone wait for us as we individually loot each mob and carefully select what we pick up.

This would take even more time then what we have to do already if you don't have the craft bag. Even with ESO+ my bags fill up constantly and the game would just be outright unplayable if I added all those extra items.

I never said players can't pick up everything. I do that but then I take 2 minutes to deal with the mostly junk in my bag before I log off for the day by using the ragpicker to deconstruct and a merchant to sell the rest.

Pevey · January 14

MaraxusTheOrc wrote: »

The craft bag was fine for monetization for a couple of years, but with each passing year they have added a handful of style components that quickly add up. I’d argue a free craft bag for style components and paid full craft bag isn’t an unreasonable compromise.

I don't know that I would say it was ever fine, but I agree it was a lot less onerous when there were a dozen style mats and not 140, and before they added the max level equipment (now CP 160) that requires 10x the amount of basic materials a CP150 item requires. The latter makes the concept of a "stack" being 200 completely ridiculous.

The game is not free-to-play. It is buy to play, and it is not cheap compared to alternatives if you get the version with the expansions. Even the base game costs more than indies like Stardew Valley. People reasonably expect a full game, not to be locked out of major portions of it.

The people who say "you don't need all that" or "don't loot everything" or "I don't mind because I don't craft anything"... Okay, that's fine, but you are foregoing a major part of the game. Master writs are where a lot of endgame items come from. You're really okay with accepting that is not available to you? Where was that in the game description when you bought it? Nowhere. Instead, ZOS emphasizes that the sub is optional as a selling point. But it is not optional unless you are willing to sit out of a major portion of the game.

Hamish999 · January 14

Craft bag is fine as it is. Pay up or do without, the decision is yours.

Edit: Sentence structure

AScarlato · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

So the blame is on the players for overlooting and using the loot-all feature (which they added for good reason). Instead we should have everyone wait for us as we individually loot each mob and carefully select what we pick up.

This would take even more time then what we have to do already if you don't have the craft bag. Even with ESO+ my bags fill up constantly and the game would just be outright unplayable if I added all those extra items.

I never said players can't pick up everything. I do that but then I take 2 minutes to deal with the mostly junk in my bag before I log off for the day by using the ragpicker to deconstruct and a merchant to seek the rest.

But you are talking about your own experience as you always have ESO+, and your little questing excursions.

This topic is discussing the scenerio where you do not have the craft bag and how utterly irritating and unreasonable the experience is, so much so that it pretty much forces you to sub if you do any content that involves looting on a regular basis.

It would be enough to drive some newer players away entirely given they dont have much bag or bank slots and would have to constantly be emptying their inventory of apples and other crap without having a $50 assistant (another paid solution to this problem that somehow the game design did not cause) to summon. At the very least it leaves a bad impression on how it feels to play.

AlexanderDeLarge · January 14

The crafting bag always sucked for non-ESO+ players, but it was more of a minor annoyance back in 2016 versus now.
It's the same exact thing as overland difficulty, the game grew but never adapted. 2026 should've been the year this was finally addressed, but wasn't. Are we really going to have to repeat history and go through the same process where people fight tooth and nail against it for a number of years until it's eventually given to us? I fought tooth and nail for DLSS support because the TAA implementation was a blurry mess too.

I'm sick of fighting for things on these forums, I just want to play the game instead of campaigning for positive improvements to the game all the time. But the crafting bag and lack of storage space really does warrant the fight.

SilverBride · January 14

AScarlato wrote: »

But you are talking about your own experience as you always have ESO+, and your little questing excursions.

This topic is discussing the scenerio where you do not have the craft bag and how utterly irritating and unreasonable the experience is, so much so that it pretty much forces you to sub if you do any content that involves looting on a regular basis.

It would be enough to drive some newer players away entirely given they dont have much bag or bank slots and would have to constantly be emptying their inventory of apples and other crap without having a $50 assistant to summon. Or at leave a bad impression on how it feels to play.

My little questing excursions as they were referred to aren't all I do. I do dungeons too and a trial here and there. But regardless of what I've done I still clear my bags at the end of every day and only store the few good items I find, and deconstruct and sell what I don't need.

The craft bag is very helpful to me because I do craft, and I get crafting mats mailed to me each day, and selling my mats is my biggest source of income. So I pay a sub to have it. It should not be diminished in value by creating a free version of it.

AlexanderDeLarge · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

The craft bag is very helpful to me because I do craft, and I get crafting mats mailed to me each day, and selling my mats is my biggest source of income. So I pay a sub to have it. It should not be diminished in value by creating a free version of it.

Yet you don't see how that's an issue for non-members? "Just don't pick everything up" is not a valid argument in a game that has more crafting materials than there are inventory and bank slots in the game.

I said it twice and I'll continue saying it. ESO+ benefits are blatantly pay2win in regards to economic and character progression advantage.

AScarlato · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

But you are talking about your own experience as you always have ESO+, and your little questing excursions.

This topic is discussing the scenerio where you do not have the craft bag and how utterly irritating and unreasonable the experience is, so much so that it pretty much forces you to sub if you do any content that involves looting on a regular basis.

It would be enough to drive some newer players away entirely given they dont have much bag or bank slots and would have to constantly be emptying their inventory of apples and other crap without having a $50 assistant to summon. Or at leave a bad impression on how it feels to play.

My little questing excursions as they were referred to aren't all I do. I do dungeons too and a trial here and there. But regardless of what I've done I still clear my bags at the end of every day and only store the few good items I find, and deconstruct and sell what I don't need.

The craft bag is very helpful to me because I do craft, and I get crafting mats mailed to me each day, and selling my mats is my biggest source of income. So I pay a sub to have it. It should not be diminished in value by creating a free version of it.

I still am not understanding your examples of having ESO+ and how much that helps with your inventory management. This isn't what is being talked about.

The issue is, everyone should be able to enjoy looting without excessive irritation in my opinion.

It seems you are fine with "game develop irritation and sell a solution." I'm not. I still buy ESO+ because otherwise I just would skip ESO and never play this game. I'm sure many have made that decision already and aren't even here to talk about it.

SneaK · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

But you are talking about your own experience as you always have ESO+, and your little questing excursions.

This topic is discussing the scenerio where you do not have the craft bag and how utterly irritating and unreasonable the experience is, so much so that it pretty much forces you to sub if you do any content that involves looting on a regular basis.

It would be enough to drive some newer players away entirely given they dont have much bag or bank slots and would have to constantly be emptying their inventory of apples and other crap without having a $50 assistant to summon. Or at leave a bad impression on how it feels to play.

My little questing excursions as they were referred to aren't all I do. I do dungeons too and a trial here and there. But regardless of what I've done I still clear my bags at the end of every day and only store the few good items I find, and deconstruct and sell what I don't need.

The craft bag is very helpful to me because I do craft, and I get crafting mats mailed to me each day, and selling my mats is my biggest source of income. So I pay a sub to have it. It should not be diminished in value by creating a free version of it.

The value is in the craft bag, not the 15$ a month you pay for it…. Sheesh

How is this hard to fathom, you are forced to pay real money for quality of life in a video game. If it was free, the value of the craft bag would still be just that, the value of having a craft bag.

SilverBride · January 14

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The craft bag is very helpful to me because I do craft, and I get crafting mats mailed to me each day, and selling my mats is my biggest source of income. So I pay a sub to have it. It should not be diminished in value by creating a free version of it.

Yet you don't see how that's an issue for non-members? "Just don't pick everything up" is not a valid argument in a game that has more crafting materials than there are inventory and bank slots in the game.

I said it twice and I'll continue saying it. ESO+ benefits are blatantly pay2win in regards to economic and character progression advantage.

I never said "Just don't pick everything up". I am saying just don't keep everything we pick up.

SilverBride · January 14

AScarlato wrote: »

The issue is, everyone should be able to enjoy looting without excessive irritation in my opinion.

It seems you are fine with "game develop irritation and sell a solution." I'm not. I still buy ESO+ because otherwise I just would skip ESO and never play this game. I'm sure many have made that decision already and aren't even here to talk about it.

The game didn't create an irritation. The game offers ways to deconstruct and sell unwanted and unneeded items instead of storing them. The stickerbook was a huge help with inventory management. But the player needs to actively purge these unneeded items.

AScarlato · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The craft bag is very helpful to me because I do craft, and I get crafting mats mailed to me each day, and selling my mats is my biggest source of income. So I pay a sub to have it. It should not be diminished in value by creating a free version of it.

Yet you don't see how that's an issue for non-members? "Just don't pick everything up" is not a valid argument in a game that has more crafting materials than there are inventory and bank slots in the game.

I said it twice and I'll continue saying it. ESO+ benefits are blatantly pay2win in regards to economic and character progression advantage.

I never said "Just don't pick everything up". I am saying just don't keep everything we pick up.

No one said they want to keep everything they ever loot. But I'm sure some people would just like to be able to finish a dungeon without having to make the choice to either run past loot, slow everyone down by nitpicking what I pick up, or manually destroying items mid-dungeon - which when I have played without ESO+ was certainly required.

spartaxoxo · January 14

AScarlato wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

But you are talking about your own experience as you always have ESO+, and your little questing excursions.

This topic is discussing the scenerio where you do not have the craft bag and how utterly irritating and unreasonable the experience is, so much so that it pretty much forces you to sub if you do any content that involves looting on a regular basis.

It would be enough to drive some newer players away entirely given they dont have much bag or bank slots and would have to constantly be emptying their inventory of apples and other crap without having a $50 assistant to summon. Or at leave a bad impression on how it feels to play.

My little questing excursions as they were referred to aren't all I do. I do dungeons too and a trial here and there. But regardless of what I've done I still clear my bags at the end of every day and only store the few good items I find, and deconstruct and sell what I don't need.

The craft bag is very helpful to me because I do craft, and I get crafting mats mailed to me each day, and selling my mats is my biggest source of income. So I pay a sub to have it. It should not be diminished in value by creating a free version of it.

I still am not understanding your examples of having ESO+ and how much that helps with your inventory management. This isn't what is being talked about.

The issue is, everyone should be able to enjoy looting without excessive irritation in my opinion.

It seems you are fine with "game develop irritation and sell a solution." I'm not. I still buy ESO+ because otherwise I just would skip ESO and never play this game. I'm sure many have made that decision already and aren't even here to talk about it.

All it takes is looking at the reviews of this game outside of the bubble of player/fan places like this forum and Reddit to see that inventory management and not liking the way combat looks/feels are the two biggest runaway points long before anyone ever gets the opportunity to form any opinions about things like group content balance. I'm not saying balance is not important. It's obviously very important. But for new players in particular, it's the first impression stuff that matters most.

So things like inventory management, the way combat and zones look and feel, and the overwhelming complexity in building characters or even what order the stories should be played in.

SilverBride · January 14

SneaK wrote: »

The value is in the craft bag, not the 15$ a month you pay for it…. Sheesh

How is this hard to fathom, you are forced to pay real money for quality of life in a video game. If it was free, the value of the craft bag would still be just that, the value of having a craft bag.

No one is forced to subscribe. But if they want to play for free they can't expect to get all the perks of those that choose to pay for the convenience.

SilverBride · January 14

AScarlato wrote: »

No one said they want to keep everything they ever loot. But I'm sure some people would just like to be able to finish a dungeon without having to make the choice to either run past loot, slow everyone down by nitpicking what I pick up, or manually destroying items mid-dungeon - which when I have played without ESO+ was certainly required.

Empty out bags before entering a dungeon and this won't happen. I've been able to run several dungeons before having to stop and clear out my bags.