Selling the solution: why the crafting bag and additional storage shouldn’t be paywalled

AlexanderDeLarge · January 14

Playing without the crafting bag fundamentally changes how the game is experienced. This is an Elder Scrolls game where you’re discouraged from looting. I hated this in TESO, and I hated it in Fallout 76. With difficulty options finally coming, this is my last major grievance.

I understand that ZeniMax Online is a business, but selling the solution to a problem they deliberately created has always rubbed me the wrong way. Especially when the game is already monetized from every conceivable angle: loot boxes, a decade of quarterly DLC, yearly expansions, costumes, mounts, houses, furnishings, furnished house bundles, XP potions, respecs, assistants, pets, storage, pets with storage, emotes, personalities, skins, skill skins, hairstyles, adornments, action skins (mining, teleporting, woodcutting), outfit slots (per character), armory slots (per character), skyshard collections for alts, mount training upgrades, a not-so-optional subscription, and a separately monetized battle pass.

A Reddit post going viral right now highlights how absurd this is: a player scrolls through a crafting bag containing 259 unique materials. That's more nodes than a player has with max inventory space and keep in mind, stack sizes are small, so any serious player will realistically have multiple stacks of many of these.

The game is monetized enough already, and playing without ESO+ feels awful. It’s even worse for lapsed subscribers, who log in to find their banks effectively unusable. I personally spent over an hour sorting mine after my subscription lapsed.

TL;DR: The crafting bag and 480 bank slots should be free for everyone. I’ve spent absurd amounts of money on this game and bought every piece of content outright. This isn’t about being cheap, it’s about bad design being sold back to the player.

SilverBride · January 14

There isn't a mandatory subscription to play ESO. They have to get revenue from somewhere to keep the lights on. Having useful and desirable perks included with an optional subscription is one way to generate this revenue. This should not be changed.

AlexanderDeLarge · January 14

It should be changed because it creates such a substandard experience, it's a de-facto requirement that you have it, let's be real. Yes, you can technically play without it, but you'll suffer doing it.

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Especially when the game is already monetized from every conceivable angle: loot boxes, a decade of quarterly DLC, yearly expansions, costumes, mounts, houses, furnishings, furnished house bundles, XP potions, respecs, assistants, pets, storage, pets with storage, emotes, personalities, skins, skill skins, hairstyles, adornments, action skins (mining, teleporting, woodcutting), outfit slots (per character), armory slots (per character), skyshard collections for alts, mount training upgrades, a not-so-optional subscription, and a separately monetized battle pass.

This is absurd. I was fine paying a subscription back when the game was subscription-only. In fact, I would gladly pay for a version of the game with the crown store ripped out of the game and everything sold in the crown shop earnable in-game. But the crafting bag is where I personally draw the line. It feels bad to play.

As players we don't need to play devil's advocate for their bottom line. Look at that list of things they already monetize.

Soarora · January 14

A lot of people have stated on the forums that they only have ESO+ for the craft bag. ZOS needs money or we all lose the game. That said, I wonder if they could do with the craft bag what they do with the bank— let non-ESO+ members have a limited amount of storage (maybe half a stack of each material) with ESO+ members having infinite.

AlexanderDeLarge · January 14

Soarora wrote: »

A lot of people have stated on the forums that they only have ESO+ for the craft bag. ZOS needs money or we all lose the game. That said, I wonder if they could do with the craft bag what they do with the bank— let non-ESO+ members have a limited amount of storage (maybe half a stack of each material) with ESO+ members having infinite.

I would be happy with that concession. Inventory space being exclusively for loot, 50-100 of each material in the crafting bag.
Unfortunately they based their entire monetization model of ESO+ on the crafting bag and furniture storage. In an ideal world, they would've found another hook, but it is what it is.

The current implementation however is untenable.

Tandor · January 14

The reason this never used to arise is because it was accepted that you paid a monthly subscription when you played a live service game, but when people decided they didn't want to do that and took "Free to Play" literally it was obvious that alternative funding arrangements had to be put in place with an incentive offered to those who could still subscribe if they wanted to (as that is a more secure funding source for developers and their backers).

That incentive might be extra character slots, inventory slots, bank slots etc as well as more cosmetic things like costumes. ZOS came up with the crafting bag as well, and simply to give it to everyone freely now would risk driving away those who have subbed for many years and who would feel betrayed. The lost revenue would in any event then have to be made up in other ways, or extra incentives offered to subscribers to replace the crafting bag, and we'd be back to Square One with people complaining that those extra incentives should be given to them freely as well.

I hope and believe that this suggestion will never happen, but at the very least those who promote it ought to support their argument with some better funding alternative beyond just "the game is monetised enough already".

whitecrow · January 14

Most games have inventory management, although it's usually based on weight. But that probably would be too time-consuming in a game you're playing with others, so this is what we have.

shadyjane62 · January 14

I have worked hard to cure my addiction to the Craft Bag. I found it easy once I gave up crafting.

Transmutes for the Win!

AlexanderDeLarge · January 14

Tandor wrote: »

I hope and believe that this suggestion will never happen, but at the very least those who promote it ought to support their argument with some better funding alternative beyond just "the game is monetised enough already".

I provided the alternative: Give me a version of the game that strips out everything from the cash shop and distributes it as loot. I'll gladly pay $15 a month for a return to what we originally had. My issue with free2play is why am I paying a subscription and still subjected to all the additional monetization avenues of free2play?

SilverBride · January 14

Soarora wrote: »

A lot of people have stated on the forums that they only have ESO+ for the craft bag. ZOS needs money or we all lose the game. That said, I wonder if they could do with the craft bag what they do with the bank— let non-ESO+ members have a limited amount of storage (maybe half a stack of each material) with ESO+ members having infinite.

That would decrease the value of the sub which would result in some players dropping it. The craft bag is a major perk and subs need major perks for players to feel they are worth the monthly fee.

ceruulean · January 14

Honestly ZoS should just get rid of under CP160 mats and make all CP 10-160 gear level 50. This will free up the excessive wood, clothes, blacksmith, alchemy, and enchanting mats.

Pauwin · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

There isn't a mandatory subscription to play ESO. They have to get revenue from somewhere to keep the lights on. Having useful and desirable perks included with an optional subscription is one way to generate this revenue. This should not be changed.

I currently don't have ESO+ and it's very annoying to manage the amount of crafting materials there are in this game now, among other things. I'm using my dead guild's 500 bank slots to store my materials (which is also time consuming since you can't stack items automatically), but without this uncommon method I don't know how I would deal with it.

I understand that ESO needs to be monetized, but inventory management is part of the core experience of the game. Making it extra-difficult to manage if you don't get an "optional" subscription is frustrating, and is almost forcing me to consider subscribing for the wrong reasons, out of spite, or to just leave the game if I can't spare the money.

Giving access to DLC with ESO+ was a good incentive, costume dyeing, more currency capacity, slight XP/Gold/Battlepass boosts are fine, crowns, etc. (they could always add more). Those are satisfying to get, but not having them does not make the playing experience worse, they are just helpful.

Soarora · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

A lot of people have stated on the forums that they only have ESO+ for the craft bag. ZOS needs money or we all lose the game. That said, I wonder if they could do with the craft bag what they do with the bank— let non-ESO+ members have a limited amount of storage (maybe half a stack of each material) with ESO+ members having infinite.

That would decrease the value of the sub which would result in some players dropping it. The craft bag is a major perk and subs need major perks for players to feel they are worth the monthly fee.

Only a little bit. Half a stack is just enough to not immediately get swarmed by random materials but not enough to comfortably deal with materials that are gained often (like trait materials) or to craft (according to UESP, it takes 130 ancestor silk to make a CP 160 hat. A stack is 200, so a craft bag limited to half a stack wouldn’t even be enough to do one third of a max writ).

Edit: I forgot writs take cp 150, which UESP says is only 13 ancestor silk. Point still stands though that it’d hinder crafting if you want to make crafted gear for yourself or others.

Castagere · January 14

I found it easy, not needing the crafting bag because I don't craft anything. The only thing I do is improve my weapons. I have made all my weapons gold. I don't bother with armor because ZOS can change the stats on a whim. I have maxed out the bank and inventory slots, so any craft mats I don't need, I sell. I haven't subbed in years.

SilverBride · January 14

Soarora wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

A lot of people have stated on the forums that they only have ESO+ for the craft bag. ZOS needs money or we all lose the game. That said, I wonder if they could do with the craft bag what they do with the bank— let non-ESO+ members have a limited amount of storage (maybe half a stack of each material) with ESO+ members having infinite.

That would decrease the value of the sub which would result in some players dropping it. The craft bag is a major perk and subs need major perks for players to feel they are worth the monthly fee.

Only a little bit. Half a stack is just enough to not immediately get swarmed by random materials but not enough to comfortably deal with materials that are gained often (like trait materials) or to craft (according to UESP, it takes 130 ancestor silk to make a CP 160 hat. A stack is 200, so a craft bag limited to half a stack wouldn’t even be enough to do one third of a max writ).

I think it would hurt the subscriber numbers a lot. It would be just enough to cause many to drop their subs.

They should leave the ESO+ perks just as they are. If players want these perks they need to pay for them as us subscribers do.

Soarora · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

A lot of people have stated on the forums that they only have ESO+ for the craft bag. ZOS needs money or we all lose the game. That said, I wonder if they could do with the craft bag what they do with the bank— let non-ESO+ members have a limited amount of storage (maybe half a stack of each material) with ESO+ members having infinite.

That would decrease the value of the sub which would result in some players dropping it. The craft bag is a major perk and subs need major perks for players to feel they are worth the monthly fee.

Only a little bit. Half a stack is just enough to not immediately get swarmed by random materials but not enough to comfortably deal with materials that are gained often (like trait materials) or to craft (according to UESP, it takes 130 ancestor silk to make a CP 160 hat. A stack is 200, so a craft bag limited to half a stack wouldn’t even be enough to do one third of a max writ).

I think it would hurt the subscriber numbers a lot. It would be just enough to cause many to drop their subs.

They should leave the ESO+ perks just as they are. If players want these perks they need to pay for them as us subscribers do.

Have you played without ESO+? There’s a LOT of crafting materials that get dropped. Even with a small craft bag, I would still need ESO+ to empty my storage every so often. Well, really, a small craft bag would only benefit me for new style materials. For new players, it’d give a buffer before they start getting overwhelmed with materials they don’t know what to do with.

AlexanderDeLarge · January 14

Counterpoint: If a game needs to arbitrarily exploit a pain point in its moment to moment gameplay, they should find other ways to monetize their game.

At the very least a free2play player should have more bank/inventory slots than there are crafting nodes so we can hold onto one stack of each. 259 unique materials but we only have 240 bank slots... And that number grows each time they add a new zone or dungeon.

I would go as far to say the crafting bag is literally pay2win too, because players not being able to pick up their materials puts them at a severe economic disadvantage. I'm certain I've missed out on tens of millions of gold by not being able to sell my mats over the years.

AScarlato · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

A lot of people have stated on the forums that they only have ESO+ for the craft bag. ZOS needs money or we all lose the game. That said, I wonder if they could do with the craft bag what they do with the bank— let non-ESO+ members have a limited amount of storage (maybe half a stack of each material) with ESO+ members having infinite.

That would decrease the value of the sub which would result in some players dropping it. The craft bag is a major perk and subs need major perks for players to feel they are worth the monthly fee.

Only a little bit. Half a stack is just enough to not immediately get swarmed by random materials but not enough to comfortably deal with materials that are gained often (like trait materials) or to craft (according to UESP, it takes 130 ancestor silk to make a CP 160 hat. A stack is 200, so a craft bag limited to half a stack wouldn’t even be enough to do one third of a max writ).

I think it would hurt the subscriber numbers a lot. It would be just enough to cause many to drop their subs.

They should leave the ESO+ perks just as they are. If players want these perks they need to pay for them as us subscribers do.

If only they could earn money by selling quality content, like box sales from Chapters. Rather than creating less and less content until it gets to the point where it needs to be free.

Having them flood our inventories with a thousand different crafting mats and selling the solution with a sub feels ... not great.

Soarora · January 14

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

I would go as far to say the crafting bag is literally pay2win too, because players not being able to pick up their materials puts them at a severe economic disadvantage. I'm certain I've missed out on tens of millions of gold by not being able to sell my mats over the years.

To be honest, I don’t think I ever sold materials UNTIL I stopped having ESO+. Craft bag meant out of sight, out of mind. I lose money when I have a craft bag… but I do have a material hoarding problem so that might just be me.

I wouldn’t call it p2w though. There are methods of mitigating the issue. In fact, I personally don’t struggle at all with not having a craft bag because I have unused characters I’ve set up as mules. That said, I do have addons, a banker, and a merchant. Without all three of those, it’d be a miserable experience.

AlexanderDeLarge · January 14

Important to mention their direct competitor in the buy2play MMO space has material storage and ArenaNet is doing just fine, without a monthly subscription even. They even sell material storage expansions that give you more stacks.

valenwood_vegan · January 14

I doubt we're going to see them dropping the craftbag from eso plus and making it free, but I hope they will see complaints like this and consider ways to address storage, which is a serious pain point for new players and which absolutely has not kept up with all of the mats and items being added to the game; but also *inventory management*, as in like the UI itself and the ease of moving mats and items around between characters and different modes of storage.

There's a lot of room for improvement that would reduce the time folks have to spend on inventory management.

Pauwin · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

I think it would hurt the subscriber numbers a lot. It would be just enough to cause many to drop their subs.

They should leave the ESO+ perks just as they are. If players want these perks they need to pay for them as us subscribers do.

I think it would help the subscriber numbers if they gave the crafting bag to everyone and added more value in other ways.

They should make the game satisfying to play on its own. If players subscribe to ESO+ it should be from interest and love for the game, rather than frustration.

Soarora · January 14

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Important to mention their direct competitor in the buy2play MMO space has material storage and ArenaNet is doing just fine, without a monthly subscription even. They even sell material storage expansions that give you more stacks.

Funny that you mention GW2’s craft bag considering GW2’s inventory management is the singular reason I don’t play. Yes, it has a craft bag, but there’s also so much I pick up that as a casual player, I have no idea what to do with (see the inventory in the left panel. No idea what most of those are).

…and I also get materials that go over the default limit and have no idea if they’re important enough to hold onto.

Pauwin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I think it would hurt the subscriber numbers a lot. It would be just enough to cause many to drop their subs.

They should leave the ESO+ perks just as they are. If players want these perks they need to pay for them as us subscribers do.

I think it would help the subscriber numbers if they gave the crafting bag to everyone and added more value in other ways.

They should make the game satisfying to play on its own. If players subscribe to ESO+ it should be from interest and love for the game, rather than frustration.

To be fair, the only reason I buy ESO+ is for increased furnishing slots in houses. So, if they flat out made the craft bag free for everyone I’m very certain that they’d lose a lot of money because there 100% are people who are buying ESO for One Singular Reason... and it’s not for the love of the game.

AlexanderDeLarge · January 14

Pauwin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I think it would hurt the subscriber numbers a lot. It would be just enough to cause many to drop their subs.

They should leave the ESO+ perks just as they are. If players want these perks they need to pay for them as us subscribers do.

I think it would help the subscriber numbers if they gave the crafting bag to everyone and added more value in other ways.

They should make the game satisfying to play on its own. If players subscribe to ESO+ it should be from interest and love for the game, rather than frustration.

I agree. How many people just get overwhelmed looking at their 480/240 available bank slots after a lapsed sub and straight up log out and uninstall the game? If I weren't so committed I probably would've done that instead of spent the first hour of my reintroduction to the game slowly salvaging items and vendoring the materials. Seriously, it's moments like that where you're asking yourself "why the hell am I playing this?"

Or read about the crafting bag and say to themselves "nope"? Perfectly understandable if that drives potential players away.

AScarlato · January 14

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

I doubt we're going to see them dropping the craftbag from eso plus and making it free, but I hope they will see complaints like this and consider ways to address storage, which is a serious pain point for new players and which absolutely has not kept up with all of the mats and items being added to the game; but also *inventory management*, as in like the UI itself and the ease of moving mats and items around between characters and different modes of storage.

There's a lot of room for improvement that would reduce the time folks have to spend on inventory management.

At least they made bag/bank a little cheaper for new players. I know in my first year of the game when it felt overwhelming and having almost no money, buying those felt a bit bad.

SilverBride · January 14

Soarora wrote: »

[Have you played without ESO+? There’s a LOT of crafting materials that get dropped. Even with a small craft bag, I would still need ESO+ to empty my storage every so often. Well, really, a small craft bag would only benefit me for new style materials. For new players, it’d give a buffer before they start getting overwhelmed with materials they don’t know what to do with.

I only played without the ESO+ for a brief time when I returned to the game after a break. I have no problem paying a monthly fee for the perks I get with it. I do not want any of these perks diminished by players that do not sub dipping in and taking even a little bit of what I'm paying for.

AlexanderDeLarge · January 14

Treating us as adversarial freeloaders instead of paying customers in a buy2play game is wild.

PeacefulAnarchy · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

A lot of people have stated on the forums that they only have ESO+ for the craft bag. ZOS needs money or we all lose the game. That said, I wonder if they could do with the craft bag what they do with the bank— let non-ESO+ members have a limited amount of storage (maybe half a stack of each material) with ESO+ members having infinite.

That would decrease the value of the sub which would result in some players dropping it. The craft bag is a major perk and subs need major perks for players to feel they are worth the monthly fee.

Only a little bit. Half a stack is just enough to not immediately get swarmed by random materials but not enough to comfortably deal with materials that are gained often (like trait materials) or to craft (according to UESP, it takes 130 ancestor silk to make a CP 160 hat. A stack is 200, so a craft bag limited to half a stack wouldn’t even be enough to do one third of a max writ).

I think it would hurt the subscriber numbers a lot. It would be just enough to cause many to drop their subs.

They should leave the ESO+ perks just as they are. If players want these perks they need to pay for them as us subscribers do.

They should give ESO+ subscribers value foer their money, we agree. Currently a lot of that value is tied into the craftbag, we agree as well.

Where we dissagree is that this is a good status quo. They should give ESO+ value in ways that are separate and distinct from game systems. Inventory (craft bag, bank, housing) should be the same for everyone. As it currently stands these systems are very frustrating to engage in without ESO+ (not impossible, but frustrating). Creating artificial friction and selling a solution to it feels bad.

ESO+ has a lot of value in the crowns. It also has some value in small +10% boosts to currency and xp. It has value in access to content that can otherwise bw bought (though they are moving away from this)These are fine. It can add more value by tying into the new season pass model with more cosmetics and tokens or whatever. Is this enough value for those who currently subscribe? Maybe for some, not for others. Inventory frustration does make people quit the game or play less. Housing limit frustration makes people not buy houses or furnishings. Transmute limits are a pain for those who get a lot of transmutes, eso+ or not. It is up to ZOS to decide if these tradeoffs are worth it. So far they have decided they are, but I hope they reconsider.

It doesn't hurt subscribers to give features to everyone, the features remain and you are welcome to reevaluate your sub in that context. If the craft bag is your main reason to sub then this would allow you to not sub. If it is not then you are clearly still getting value from the remaining features. You could see the same dynamic with the content giveaways and now incorporation into base game. There, ZOS decided accessible content was more valuable than the sub price + crown sales of restricted content. I hope they consider the same for the craft bag and general gameplay friction.

AScarlato · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

I do not want any of these perks diminished by players that do not sub dipping in and taking even a little bit of what I'm paying for.

What an odd stance to have as a customer.

They may even have more players around to buy other things if inventory management wasn't so annoying. There are certainly games I play where I flat out resent inventory management, like Black Desert that has a habit of flooding your inventory with relative garbage.

Pauwin · January 14

Soarora wrote: »

To be fair, the only reason I buy ESO+ is for increased furnishing slots in houses. So, if they flat out made the craft bag free for everyone I’m very certain that they’d lose a lot of money because there 100% are people who are buying ESO for One Singular Reason... and it’s not for the love of the game.

I'm sure they can come up with new value for ESO+.

There is just so much stuff to pick up in this game, it feels like every single QOL update included something about items becoming stackable because players rightfully complained (siege, maps, writs, surveys, what else ?), or removing items from inventory (collectibles, sticker books/transmute...). But inventories are still full ! Crafting mats would be the next and maybe final step

Tandor · January 14

ceruulean wrote: »

Honestly ZoS should just get rid of under CP160 mats and make all CP 10-160 gear level 50. This will free up the excessive wood, clothes, blacksmith, alchemy, and enchanting mats.

Please no, that would trivialise the game even more than has already been done and remove a sense of achievement from levelling up through normal means rather than by farming dolmens in Alik'r.