I actually like that change, I'm pleasantly surprised.
DK has leap, which I imagine is being reworked to have a damage morph that's desirable, plus even the standard of Might is good for DPS. It doesn't deal burst DPS but it buffs yours considerably.

Isn't shifting standard still available if you want it to do damage?

I know which version I'd prefer to take into a dungeon or trial.

Ahh I’m just being too concerned by this one change. I’m overthinking it. I’ll be happy to admit that I’m wrong and that this change is for the better. Which I hope it is.

I do like the overall changes for the entire class though.

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Don’t underestimate the power of a group-wide unnamed Major Courage.

It’s not as great for solo play though. And most people prefer to play solo whilst fulfilling their own personal class fantasy.

If i lose poison damage you can lose some flame damage.

Will have to wait til PTS on monday to be fully sure. Am worried about some changes on how it would affect how I played DK in both PvP and PvE, but ultimately willing to take these changes if it means class identity and pure classing is viable compared to subclassing. The only change I'm not 100% with is the engulfing flames one. I get wanting to provide a low effort way to play to all classes since beam became super popular, but if every class is going to get a 4.8s channel skill that deals massive AoE direct damage, then that defeats the purpose of class identity, even if there are synergistic skills to go with it. It's still just a reskinned beam at the end of the day.

For the sake of balance, I understand the time frame for all of these changes to be done is going to be minimum 2 years, but the sheer strength of this new DK should be looked at in the lens of all the class changes being done, rather than how it compares to every class there is currently. Yes, there's going to be a DK meta for a while, but judging by the timeline, it's going to be a short wait for Werewolf to receive its changes, and then Warden, so in the span of probably 3-4 months, we can see a DK, Werewolf, and Warden meta but all 3 still be withing reach of each other, and then ending the year with Sorc. I would stress that people shouldn't freak out too much over how this DK is overpowered compared to other pure classes since it doesn't matter in the long run unlike the outlook of subclassing before we knew of these changes. If every class is getting this same exact treatment, there isn't anything to be worried about, it's just going to take time for more options to open up. Since this should be going live in march, and Sorc is scheduled for November, it's only going to take 8 months to have 4 options to play as. Definitely not too long when single class metas usually lasted for 5-6 months. And that's not saying if there's going to be temporary balance changes to current classes to help not make them feel too far out of range while they wait their turn.

coop500 wrote: »

I actually like that change, I'm pleasantly surprised.
DK has leap, which I imagine is being reworked to have a damage morph that's desirable, plus even the standard of Might is good for DPS. It doesn't deal burst DPS but it buffs yours considerably.

I'm imagining corrosive is going to be the preferred ultimate for DK now. Not entirely sure if my math is right, but the base tooltip is going to be 1388 compared to standard's 870 + 15% damage. Leap's 20% damage against monsters looks neat, but corrosive ticks each second and is going to see some stupidly high damage due to Avalanche, World in Ruin, and Fan the Flames, all the while allowing you to still control your character unlike Engulfing Dragonfire. It's going to be stronger than current standard by a mile I'm sure.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

"You know what would make DK feel cool? What if we took the most widely used and iconic ultimate ability and messed it up?"

Yeah, addressing class identity by changing an iconic and beloved ultimate and eliminating half of the identity (poison)....

Radiate77 wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

"You know what would make DK feel cool? What if we took the most widely used and iconic ultimate ability and messed it up?"

Yeah, addressing class identity by changing an iconic and beloved ultimate and eliminating half of the identity (poison)....

Eliminating an identity that made zero game sense that was provided post launch?

Sounds like a problem fixed to me.

Dynamic ultimate gen playing into battle roar, the DK wings reflect, generating ult while under magma armor, and now the instant gratification of the unique buff from fiery breath are some cool identity grounding things that have been stolen.

And other classes have had cool stuff stolen from them too. The only thing that makes skill changes make sense is that they aren't based on any guideline or game-wide principles, but are based around however a couple of designers were feeling on a certain day and whatever the gameplay was that they wanted to force at that given moment.

Instead of nerfing standard of might in PvE and making it completely irrevocably useless in PvP, it should retain the flame damage and also allow shackle to be self-synergizeble. And it will still be basically useless in PvP aside from chokepoints. But at least it will have some kind of case-argument to use.

I quite hope that Sorcerer is handled the same way with streamlining Shock Damage and that it can finally throw off the shackles of having its kit subdivided arbitrarily into Physical and generic Magic as well, when the time comes. "Stamina Sorcerer" is no less hilarious and nonsensical now than it was back when that nonsequitur of a class description was created.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Instead of nerfing standard of might in PvE and making it completely irrevocably useless in PvP, it should retain the flame damage and also allow shackle to be self-synergizeble. And it will still be basically useless in PvP aside from chokepoints. But at least it will have some kind of case-argument to use.

Use Shifting Standard? It's the obvious PvP morph what with damage and Major Defile and the ability to move it around.

I do like your idea of the self-synergy option, though. That definitely should be added to both morphs (and basically all other synergy abilities), IMO.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

"You know what would make DK feel cool? What if we took the most widely used and iconic ultimate ability and messed it up?"

Yeah, addressing class identity by changing an iconic and beloved ultimate and eliminating half of the identity (poison)....

Eliminating an identity that made zero game sense that was provided post launch?

Sounds like a problem fixed to me.

Dynamic ultimate gen playing into battle roar, the DK wings reflect, generating ult while under magma armor, and now the instant gratification of the unique buff from fiery breath are some cool identity grounding things that have been stolen.

And other classes have had cool stuff stolen from them too. The only thing that makes skill changes make sense is that they aren't based on any guideline or game-wide principles, but are based around however a couple of designers were feeling on a certain day and whatever the gameplay was that they wanted to force at that given moment.

Every class had a clear vision when they were created, and Poison was not a part of Dragonknight along with Physical (Wind) on Sorcerer.

I would rather see an Alchemist or Swordsinger Class, than pre-Hybridization skill tweaks continue to be kept years after the barriers to build diversity have been demolished.

Radiate77 wrote: »

What is the complaint here? That they are no longer green? That’s what Skill Styles are for.

This is off-topic for the thread, so I don't want to go off on a tangent. The point is simply that poison has been part of the DK class identity for almost 10 years. Of course losing poison damage and the passives it interacted with is also impactful at a gameplay level.

You may not have preferred it, but during that time, of course many players have grown attached to their poisoned themed builds, including me. And no, not because they're green... The way players have enjoyed a class for almost 10 years is certainly relevant to the topic of class identity.

Radiate77 wrote: »

Of course it’s off-topic, you conveniently left out the first half of what I wrote. All of these changes are better, and it’s not an opinion. The class will perform better at every role.

I quoted the one of two lines that was relevant. Yes, it is purely your subjective opinion the class is better. Obviously not everyone shares it.

I couldn't care less about overall power. I don't like OP classes. I like balance. I avoided DK the first year precisely because it was so OP.

We have no idea now how the numbers will work out and which play styles and abilities that will emerge as superior yet. But DK was already an at least balanced class so the goal should not have been to make it more powerful.

Cobble123 wrote: »

‘Hey guys we want you to use lots of DK damage skills, so we’re going to remove the AOE damage portion of both Standard and Eruption, remove the option to use FOO as a semi-spammable, and make this new FOO and Claw so expensive that you won’t be able to actually use them with the constant attack on DK sustain we’ve been running since U34.’


Have fun!

Sustain hasn’t been a problem in years, even after all of the recent changes.

And yeah, no more spamming Flames of Oblivion, because whip is now AoE, Fiery Breath is now a channel that funny enough synergizes with that fancy 20% increase to ALL of our damage from Dragon Leap for 15 seconds. How long does it take to fill up for a Dragon Leap again? Around 15 seconds?

I would advise playing the changes before complaining about them.

Cobble123 wrote: »

DK sustain was badly nerfed in u34. You couldn't complete a 20m dummy parse without heavy attacking to regain resources. The [snip] that folllowed in u35 and its 20s dots completely wiped u34 from peoples consciousness'.

And Combustion and Battle Roar have been nerfed several times again since then.

I don't know. If you need 20 minutes to hit the dummy down, then the root problem is your build, not the DK ssustain. Even if you're talking about 21M dummy , the DK also doesn't have a sustain issue, even without using subclasses.
[edited to remove quote]