Solo Dungeons will Kill the MMO.

Ruj · January 10

Soarora wrote: »

I don't want to do random dungeons with people who don't want to be there. Give the people solo dungeons so dungeon dungeons can be reinforced as group content (aside from the people who solo dungeons for the challenge, but they're not in the queue anyways) and people can complain less about speedrunners (they cannot be stopped, there's been 27,000 threads on how to stop them and its always the same few suggestions).

Besides, wouldn't it just make DPS queue faster? You can't solo a dungeon as a healer or a tank.

WoW is adding 4 options when groups are made.
Learning
Casual
Experienced/Hardmode
Carry (for paying groups)

What is stopping ESO from doing this?
Something as simple as 2 options for dungeons in ESO:
1) Quest
2) Speedrun

Syldras · January 10

zombievalen wrote: »

It's incredible that an MMO community celebrates playing dungeons solo when you can play them in any offline game.

In which solo game can I experience Tamriel in the 2nd era?

tomofhyrule wrote: »

when TES6 releases, a lot of the players who want the solo content will drop ESO like a hot potato and go over there. That means TES6's release will literally kill ESO.

And if there's barely any new solo content for ESO anymore even before TES6 releases, they'll leave even earlier because they lose interest and search for another game (It's not like there aren't other interesting singleplayer games on the market, after all).

tomofhyrule wrote: »

a wonderful reason why ZOS should cater almost exclusively to the MMO crowd

If by that you mean obligatory grouping for all content, that would definitely make me leave immediately, and I know lots of people who would do the same. The big question is: Do the people who will remain will be able to sustain this game alone? And that's where I have my doubts.

Mik195 · January 10

If I had my way, all mandatory grouping mechanics would be removed so that any number of people can do any content. Want to solo a trial - have fun. Need 24 people to complete a trial, enjoy! But then, I don't care if someone else got the same reward as I did with less/different effort.

Soarora · January 10

Ruj wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I don't want to do random dungeons with people who don't want to be there. Give the people solo dungeons so dungeon dungeons can be reinforced as group content (aside from the people who solo dungeons for the challenge, but they're not in the queue anyways) and people can complain less about speedrunners (they cannot be stopped, there's been 27,000 threads on how to stop them and its always the same few suggestions).

Besides, wouldn't it just make DPS queue faster? You can't solo a dungeon as a healer or a tank.

WoW is adding 4 options when groups are made.
Learning
Casual
Experienced/Hardmode
Carry (for paying groups)

What is stopping ESO from doing this?
Something as simple as 2 options for dungeons in ESO:
1) Quest
2) Speedrun

Questing with a group in ESO is a terrible experience. If someone in the group progresses the quest and you were reading? Too bad! Someone picks up a quest item that you wanted to read? Too bad!

Besides, the solution to this was group finder. There's options for learning, speedrun, etc.

ArchangelIsraphel · January 10

Syldras wrote: »

If by that you mean obligatory grouping for all content, that would definitely make me leave immediately, and I know lots of people who would do the same. The big question is: Do the people who will remain will be able to sustain this game alone? And that's where I have my doubts.

And you're absolutely right to doubt. I've seen a wealth of MMO's die or fade into obscurity, and one of the things all of them had in common was a lack of meaningful solo progression that drove players away. Granted, predatory monetization played a huge role in this, but even group-oriented players were ultimately driven away. The reason being? There was nothing for them to pursue outside of grinding group content just to do more group content, gearing to get gear to get more gear. Some of those games had major levels of hype surrounding them when they were announced- now they're on life support while the 1% continue to gatekeep content.

There's a reason why the majority of top MMORPG's are at the top; they have a lot to offer to both solo and group players, not just one or the other. We're catching up to games like FF14 with a system like this, and it's great to see. I've never had problems recruiting for group content in FF14, even though you can do dungeon story lines solo there xD People got upset when that was implemented there, but there's still meaningful group content, and the game is thriving.

People who claim ESO is going into "maintenance mode" have no idea what a game going into maintenance mode actually looks like. ESO has had some rough patches, but it has come nowhere NEAR what maintenance mode really is. Maintenance mode looks much, much bleaker.

Also, as a side note on the thread in general: In threads like these, people always tend to take a polarizing mindset. That there's "solo players" and "group players" when, more often than not, solo players and group players are the same people who just like to shift play styles when the mood strikes them.

Malyore · January 10

Syldras wrote: »

zombievalen wrote: »

It's incredible that an MMO community celebrates playing dungeons solo when you can play them in any offline game.

In which solo game can I experience Tamriel in the 2nd era?

This really drives the point well.

It's not just about having access to other solo games. It's about being fans of elder scrolls first and foremost. And a lot of those particular fans enjoy solo content. Not finding other games.

I'm glad to see a major consensus of support for solo mode here. I honestly didn't expect it.

Artem_gig · January 10

I'm shocked at how people manage to create problems that will never exist in the game. Solo play is only necessary for players who want to complete the story. That's it. Once they've finished the story in solo play, they're unlikely to return to solo dungeons. At the very least, the daily experience for completing the daily quest is only available when playing in a group.

Gabriel_H · January 10

Mik195 wrote: »

If I had my way, all mandatory grouping mechanics would be removed so that any number of people can do any content. Want to solo a trial - have fun. Need 24 people to complete a trial, emjoy! But then, I don't care if someone else got the same reward as I did with less/different effort.

Impossible to balance the encounters. It's impossible to calculate the correct scaling.

randconfig · January 10

Personally, I always thought this would be the way to fix eso dungeon content:

1) Story Mode should make the enemies easier to kill, remove the boss mechanics that require full party to do, and improve interactions with NPCs in the dungeon/questlines (like have NPCs join with the player to step on the pressure plates during the Direfrost Keep dungeon). This is when it would be good to allow in depth talking/dialogue options with NPCs for lore and all that.

2) While in group content, all walking up and engaging with NPC dialogues should be removed/minimized (ideally just having to interact one time at the very end of the dungeon to collect your reward). Instead have the NPCs tell a more condensed story/version of events as you move through the dungeon/fight a boss.

3) Allow players to complete the same quest in either story mode or a group mode. Just in the group mode setting, make the quest be accepted automatically upon entering the dungeon instance.

robwolf666 · January 10

zombievalen wrote: »

Today, this MMO is special; people play it as "Syrim Online." The community isn't toxic—in fact, it's great—but most are against raids and co-op.
It's incredible that an MMO community celebrates playing dungeons solo when you can play them in any offline game.
I think they should focus on making players need to socialize and cooperate more, and not just instance them alone... that's the essence of every MMO (like WoW, FF, etc.).
If they implement solo dungeons, random dungeons will disappear and the essence of the MMO as well.

Don't be dramatic, it's not like they're replacing group dungeons, they're just giving players who like solo play more options for things to do..

Elder Scrolls has a history of being a solo player game, so as far as I'm concerned, the more things they can give solo instances to the better. Hell, I'd love it if the entire game could have the option of having a solo instance, play like Skyrim etc... Maybe as an option in ESO+ or something.

Gabriel_H · January 10

robwolf666 wrote: »

Don't be dramatic, it's not like they're replacing group dungeons, they're just giving players who like solo play more options for things to do..

Partially true. This year they very much are replacing the release of new group dungeons for solo ones.

I get why. They have limited resources and can't work on both at once. That doesn't alter that if they don't up their resources in the dungeon creation team then there is a danger that each year we will only see a couple of solo dungeons or a couple of group dungeons, but never both.

That's a legitimate concern for those of us who enjoy group dungeon play.

Gabriel_H · January 10

Ruj wrote: »

Carry (for paying groups)

Wait! Are you serious? A game with a notorious gold farming problem is actually introducing an official pay gold for dungeon run system?

WhiteCoatSyndrome · January 10

I’m just here because it’s Elder Scrolls. If it had been a different setting I wouldn’t have bothered with it. And I’m looking forward to actually being able to talk to the NPCs, enjoy the scenery and look for lorebooks. Group-only content has gotten increasingly toxic over the years making me less and less willing to engage with it.

Xarc · January 10

Anyway, there's already a lot of solo content in this game, so solo dungeons don't bother me at all.
Personally, I came to this game to play with/against other players. But one doesn't preclude the other.

- It's not always easy to find players to run dungeons with.
- We had solo arenas, so the logical next step was solo dungeons.

robwolf666 · January 10

Gabriel_H wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

Don't be dramatic, it's not like they're replacing group dungeons, they're just giving players who like solo play more options for things to do..

Partially true. This year they very much are replacing the release of new group dungeons for solo ones.

They are new dungeons?
I misunderstood them (ZoS) then, I thought they were adding new difficulty levels to existing dungeons.

Gabriel_H · January 10

robwolf666 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

Don't be dramatic, it's not like they're replacing group dungeons, they're just giving players who like solo play more options for things to do..

Partially true. This year they very much are replacing the release of new group dungeons for solo ones.

They are new dungeons?
I misunderstood them (ZoS) then, I thought they were adding new difficulty levels to existing dungeons.

The two dungeons coming in Season 2 are solo versions of MHK and MoS - which will have a story mode (easier than normal difficulty) and a challenge mode (which will be around the same difficulty as MA, VH and Solo IA). There will be 3 instanced 4-man content in the new (temporary) zone that is likely to be something like Bastion Nymics but hopefully much better.

There are no new group dungeons this year.

Cooperharley · January 10

Nah. Solo dungeons won't at all. If they say you can get monster masks, all the achievements and all the gear from it, then possibly, but if they separate out achievements specifically for solo versions of those achievements for instance, then i think it'll be fine. Just like anything it's all on implementation. I think the people that want to group up still will and those that want to solo will have more to do so.

AzuraFan · January 10

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

I’m just here because it’s Elder Scrolls. If it had been a different setting I wouldn’t have bothered with it. And I’m looking forward to actually being able to talk to the NPCs, enjoy the scenery and look for lorebooks. Group-only content has gotten increasingly toxic over the years making me less and less willing to engage with it.

Same. I tried ESO in 2014 and dropped it. It just didn't grab me. I only gave it a second look when it became clear that we weren't going to get TES6 for a while. If this wasn't an Elder Scrolls game, I wouldn't have tried it again.

Cooperharley wrote: »

Nah. Solo dungeons won't at all. If they say you can get monster masks, all the achievements and all the gear from it, then possibly, but if they separate out achievements specifically for solo versions of those achievements for instance, then i think it'll be fine. Just like anything it's all on implementation. I think the people that want to group up still will and those that want to solo will have more to do so.

Given that you can buy the monster masks without ever setting foot in a dungeon, and that most sets are useless, I don't see the harm in giving the same rewards in solo mode. As for achievements, there are achievements that are difficult to get with pugs - secret bosses, ones that require you to explore a dungeon a bit, etc. I forget which dungeon, but there's one achievement where you need to kill everything in the dungeon before killing the final boss. Good luck doing that one with a pug. You have more chance of winning the lottery.

The same with antiquities leads - those should drop too, because some come from secret bosses that pugs rarely do. There should definitely be achievements that require a group, and there are - a lot of vet ones, also ones like playing the instrument in one of the newer dungeons, etc.

I don't see the point of denying rewards to people with a different playstyle from you. Some people who do solo dungeons would never group anyway, or only group because they have to. I was running with pugs, but I don't do it as often because of subclassing. Too many beams, more speedrunning, and the problem of people dropping right after they load into a dungeon they don't want seems to have increased. As a DPS, it's just not worth the queue time to try anymore.

If the solo dungeons don't offer rewards beyond completing the story, or only offer "fluff" rewards (rewards that aren't all that useful), there will be no reason to repeat them on a character. There needs to be a reason for players to do them multiple times, just like there is with the group dungeons. Now, if they introduce some useful sets that only drop in solo dungeons, like a solo stickerbook, that would work. From what they said, there will be a story mode and a solo mode, so perhaps the story mode will be dirt easy and just for doing the story. I guess I'm addressing the solo mode, which needs to have incentives for players to repeat the content, just like group dungeons do.

Cooperharley · January 10

AzuraFan wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

I’m just here because it’s Elder Scrolls. If it had been a different setting I wouldn’t have bothered with it. And I’m looking forward to actually being able to talk to the NPCs, enjoy the scenery and look for lorebooks. Group-only content has gotten increasingly toxic over the years making me less and less willing to engage with it.

Same. I tried ESO in 2014 and dropped it. It just didn't grab me. I only gave it a second look when it became clear that we weren't going to get TES6 for a while. If this wasn't an Elder Scrolls game, I wouldn't have tried it again.

Cooperharley wrote: »

Nah. Solo dungeons won't at all. If they say you can get monster masks, all the achievements and all the gear from it, then possibly, but if they separate out achievements specifically for solo versions of those achievements for instance, then i think it'll be fine. Just like anything it's all on implementation. I think the people that want to group up still will and those that want to solo will have more to do so.

Given that you can buy the monster masks without ever setting foot in a dungeon, and that most sets are useless, I don't see the harm in giving the same rewards in solo mode. As for achievements, there are achievements that are difficult to get with pugs - secret bosses, ones that require you to explore a dungeon a bit, etc. I forget which dungeon, but there's one achievement where you need to kill everything in the dungeon before killing the final boss. Good luck doing that one with a pug. You have more chance of winning the lottery.

The same with antiquities leads - those should drop too, because some come from secret bosses that pugs rarely do. There should definitely be achievements that require a group, and there are - a lot of vet ones, also ones like playing the instrument in one of the newer dungeons, etc.

I don't see the point of denying rewards to people with a different playstyle from you. Some people who do solo dungeons would never group anyway, or only group because they have to. I was running with pugs, but I don't do it as often because of subclassing. Too many beams, more speedrunning, and the problem of people dropping right after they load into a dungeon they don't want seems to have increased. As a DPS, it's just not worth the queue time to try anymore.

If the solo dungeons don't offer rewards beyond completing the story, or only offer "fluff" rewards (rewards that aren't all that useful), there will be no reason to repeat them on a character. There needs to be a reason for players to do them multiple times, just like there is with the group dungeons. Now, if they introduce some useful sets that only drop in solo dungeons, like a solo stickerbook, that would work. From what they said, there will be a story mode and a solo mode, so perhaps the story mode will be dirt easy and just for doing the story. I guess I'm addressing the solo mode, which needs to have incentives for players to repeat the content, just like group dungeons do.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it, i just mean there could possibly be some effects seen if that's the case, but i'd prefer to play largely solo. I have a 2 month old baby and don't have all the time in the world to play. Sitting in a queue as a DD sucks when i just want to hop into my dungeons! I couldn't be more excited for solo dungeons.

AzuraFan · January 10

Cooperharley wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it, i just mean there could possibly be some effects seen if that's the case, but i'd prefer to play largely solo. I have a 2 month old baby and don't have all the time in the world to play. Sitting in a queue as a DD sucks when i just want to hop into my dungeons! I couldn't be more excited for solo dungeons.

Glad to see we're on the same page!

General comment: If they deny access to sets, leads, and achievements in solo dungeons, why would people do them? They'll do story mode once to see the story and explore the dungeon, and then never touch that dungeon again. When I pug, it's not because I want to experience a dungeon for the 20th time. It's because I need a lead, or an achievement, or still need set pieces. There are achievements and leads I'll never get in a pug because of the way pugs run. There are also lorebooks that are difficult to get. Some of them are off the beaten path or in secret boss areas. My point is that even people who group can't get some stuff done, so if they can't do it in a solo dungeon either, what's the point of having them?

LPapirius · January 10

Solo dungeons are a horrible idea. The group finder is already struggling and this will likely make it flounder way more than it already does. "story mode" is for single player games that don't require skills or understanding.

ESO is an MMO and this change just makes it look like ZOS is transitioning it's MMO to a single player game.

Juju_beans · January 10

The couple of times I did a group dungeon as a new player they all ran off and left me standing there.
No time to ask questions, no time to do the quests. Everythng got downed fast and then they all left.

I, for one, am looking forward to solo dungeons.

BergisMacBride · January 10

zombievalen wrote: »

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

Mostly solo player here. I don’t play single player games because the worlds with just NPCs don’t feel alive or vibrant to me. I love the MMO aspect because I am in a living world with other players out and about. I belong to 5 active guilds and enjoy the guild chat and other guild activities. I prefer mostly solo activities because it fits my play style. I can go afk, log on/off whenever I want and not be concerned with other folks’ schedules. I for one am really looking forward to see what the solo dungeons have to offer.

zack723_ESO · January 10

your being overly dramatic its not a new dungeon thats being made for solo it old ones thats getting a new mode, a story mode if you will, ff14 has it and its doing just fine in that regard. it will be fine

Magenpie · January 10

Artem_gig wrote: »

I'm shocked at how people manage to create problems that will never exist in the game. Solo play is only necessary for players who want to complete the story. That's it. Once they've finished the story in solo play, they're unlikely to return to solo dungeons. At the very least, the daily experience for completing the daily quest is only available when playing in a group.

I disagree. Delves have worked really well in WoW for example (I do them and they are good fun), and it wouldn't surprise me if taking note of that success influenced the ESO devs in making this decision. Having a scale of difficulty levels with appropriate rewards would definitely interest me, particularly if the solo challenges are interesting.

See also Infinite Archive.

Cooperharley · January 10

Let me give y'all an example, that literally just happened, of why I am so excited for solo dungeons. I'm a healer on the character I'm playing keep in mind.

Zone in to Dread Cellar on veteran. I say, "Good morning!

" No reply. One of the DPS proceeds to sprint in ahead of the tank, dies instantly and then logs out. We then say, well that was bizarre! Continued on to the first boss with the 3 of us. Great DPS, decent tank, no worries.

Progressing through the fight easily. Tank misses a dodge/block and dies. While I'm rezzing him and the DPS is kiting, the tank says, "I died because DPS was too low." We had 20% left on the boss and were cooking the boss with just one damage dealer. Tank leaves. DPS says nothing and then leaves.

This happens much, much more than you think regardless of the role you play.

Think about if I was a new player and couldn't quest at all because people sprinted ahead or this happened frequently. I wouldn't want to touch dungeons! Let alone if you're a DPS in queue for 30+ min. A common excuse is to join a guild and play with guildies or friends.

You'll still be able to do that easily AND/OR solo when you want. It's going to be awesome and I for one cannot wait!

Orbital78 · January 10

LPapirius wrote: »

Solo dungeons are a horrible idea. The group finder is already struggling and this will likely make it flounder way more than it already does. "story mode" is for single player games that don't require skills or understanding.

ESO is an MMO and this change just makes it look like ZOS is transitioning it's MMO to a single player game.

People are already soloing them. The queues are struggling because not enough people want to tank vets or are skilled enough to. Also there are less experienced players playing anymore. Lots of issues already, and I doubt a solo mode is going to hurt that unless you can do a random solo or do pledges for equal rewards solo.

The queues need more tanks and experienced players. This last year didn't help, I'm running into many more cp ~200-300 in the vet queue that just can't cut the dlcs these days, so bails are more often and just less likely to bother pugging.

Cooperharley · January 10

zombievalen wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

So, this version of an MMO with forced group play to progress was what MMOs were founded on 20-25 years ago. As you can see, many have progressed towards being more solo friendly because most people that play MMOs have responsibilities and a limited amount of time to play the game. The beauty of an MMO is that it's a shared world. Sometimes I want to run around and quest and talk to friends in game, but do what i want solo. I think there are certain things like raids (trials in ESO) that obviously need to be grouped, but dungeon content? Why?

It's an awesome feeling to run around the world and have it feel alive with other players and know that stuff is there for me waiting should i want to engage in group content, but these games attract so many people because it opens the doors to every type of player - housing, solo oriented, RP, PVP, hardcore PvE, etc. Giving each of those sectors more options in how they can play and engage with the game will boost the long term health of the game and that's a fact. Will queues for groups be longer in dungeons? Potentially. But I can use the same excuse that people often give to solo players, "just play with a group of friends or your guild if you don't want a long queue (versus the questing thing)."

More choice for the player in how they play the game is good, BUT depends on implementation.

robwolf666 · January 10

LPapirius wrote: »

Solo dungeons are a horrible idea. The group finder is already struggling and this will likely make it flounder way more than it already does. "story mode" is for single player games that don't require skills or understanding.

ESO is an MMO and this change just makes it look like ZOS is transitioning it's MMO to a single player game.

Historically Elder Scrolls is a single player game... I see things like this as just taking ESO back to the series roots.

Syldras · January 10

Cooperharley wrote: »

Zone in to Dread Cellar on veteran. I say, "Good morning! " No reply. One of the DPS proceeds to sprint in ahead of the tank, dies instantly and then logs out. We then say, well that was bizarre! Continued on to the first boss with the 3 of us. Great DPS, decent tank, no worries.
Progressing through the fight easily. Tank misses a dodge/block and dies. While I'm rezzing him and the DPS is kiting, the tank says, "I died because DPS was too low." We had 20% left on the boss and were cooking the boss with just one damage dealer. Tank leaves. DPS says nothing and then leaves.

It's always funny when some people frame players not having any interest to participate in group content in ESO as lacking social skills, when the problem might be the exact opposite: They have them and don't find it fun to come across something like described above in random groups.