Please don't let us hide legs - there is a real harassment issue there.

Orbital78 · January 9

Morvan wrote: »

ankeor wrote: »

The fragility is off the chart. You wonder how these people survive irl.

It makes me wonder how they survived the game itself by this point, you'd think lore on Lamae or Molag would have triggered them away before they even got to care about pants.

Sadly AI didn't wanna do Molag as it was copyrighted.

frogthroat · January 9

I also don't want this hiding clothes function, but for a different and completely selfish reason.

But this harassment thing is not a reason to not implement hiding of clothes. You already can remove your pants, like in OP's case. And you already have tools to deal with it: ask to stop, report and block.

There's no real nudity in this game anyway. And you can't harm other people in this game more than they let you harm them. This is not real life. You can easily go somewhere else, you can easily log off. I do this all the time -- well, not related to something like someone not wearing pants, but if I am farming something and other players come there to do the same I will go somewhere else. You can't just say "my farming place, go away." Same thing with the pantless. You don't like it, you go away.

Of course if they deliberately harass you, then use the normal tools you already have. Ask to stop, report, block.

Oh, and when this function comes you will see a lot of naked people running around. It will only be in the beginning and then people put their normal outfits back on. But in the beginning you will see a lot of them. Just like with any other new and flashy thing.

TheMajority wrote: »

When you "block" a player through the report feature, have it so that it not only silences the player, but also makes their entire character disappear so that you cannot see anything they are doing. Additionally, when you block them, they will not be able to see you or interact with you at all.

The disappearing could already be done with an addon. There's a raid tool that hides all the other players in your group (requires a bar swap) and I see no reason why this would not work with your block list, too. It would just need to be created, but the technology is already there.

Sailor_Palutena · January 9

I hope they let us to hide it. I wouldn't mind so much if current clothes and armor didn't make us look so fat. Or those flying flaps on the sides. Or the ugly skirts that look like Flintheart Glomgold

emilyhyoyeon · January 9

The nordic bather's towel seems like it has a higher level of harassment potential considering its implied lack of hammocking of the crotch like a standard pair of underwear has.

Gabriel_H · January 9

AScarlato wrote: »

I said imagined because this topic is discussing a future ESO feature, not your past experience. Any harassment the request would supposedly prevent is imagined because it has not occurred.

Dude, you gotta stop using that word. It has serious negative connotations when it comes to this subject matter. Possible or predicted - absolutely not, and never, imagined.

couriersix · January 9

I don't think clothes are really the issue here but instead player behavior, and people who act like this should absolutely be held accountable. There already are a few pants options in games which are incredibly short and close to the default underwear, such as the seventh legion guards and nordic bathers towel. Removing player customization is never a good thing.

AScarlato · January 9

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I said imagined because this topic is discussing a future ESO feature, not your past experience. Any harassment the request would supposedly prevent is imagined because it has not occurred.

Dude, you gotta stop using that word. It has serious negative connotations when it comes to this subject matter. Possible or predicted - absolutely not, and never, imagined.

No, I won’t. This situation is not the equivalent of real life atrocities. And the person I replied to imagined a “Massive difference in scale” and then backtracked on it.

Edit: Just wanted to reiterate, since it is important, that this is not a conversation about believing victims. It's a conversation about cosmetics in an MMO. Context matters. Word-policing specific words and applying them to conversations we are not having is not something I want to engage in.

JiubLeRepenti · January 9

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I said imagined because this topic is discussing a future ESO feature, not your past experience. Any harassment the request would supposedly prevent is imagined because it has not occurred.

Dude, you gotta stop using that word. It has serious negative connotations when it comes to this subject matter. Possible or predicted - absolutely not, and never, imagined.

No, I won’t. This situation is not the equivalent of real life atrocities. And the person I replied to imagined a “Massive scale” and then backtracked on it.

So, because it's a video game it doesn't matter?

Ye

Syldras · January 9

frogthroat wrote: »

There's no real nudity in this game anyway.

What? Have you ever seen an Alfiq wearing pants?

SilverBride · January 9

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Please don't let players hide pants. I don't want to group with naked players for World Bosses, or Incursions, or Dungeons or Trials, etc.. It looks too unrealistic and is very immersion breaking.

If you don't want to break immersion because of people removing their pants, then maybe you should actively ask ZOS to remove 95% of mounts/pets/emots/etc. added to the game these last 10 years.

I already have. Rather I have asked for a toggle to not have to see all the loud and flashy effects from these mounts and recalls.

spartaxoxo · January 9

AScarlato wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I said imagined because this topic is discussing a future ESO feature, not your past experience. Any harassment the request would supposedly prevent is imagined because it has not occurred.

Dude, you gotta stop using that word. It has serious negative connotations when it comes to this subject matter. Possible or predicted - absolutely not, and never, imagined.

No, I won’t. This situation is not the equivalent of real life atrocities. And the person I replied to imagined a “Massive difference in scale” and then backtracked on it.

I didn't backtrack on anything. There's a massive difference in the scale of opportunities for harassment which will naturally lead to more harassment. This doesn't mean that I think there will be legions of people doing this. I said from the very beginning that I did not think harassment would be rampant.

Yes, some people are acting on pure malice and deadset on harassment. There's no stopping that.

But other bad actions happen because someone let the intrusive thoughts win. It's done impulsively and with little thought. Even having to stop and think about it for a moment can deter action. That's true of bad actions in general. Not just this one. A lot of them probably won't even be thinking of it as that but instead of a joke without really thinking through the impact they have on others. "I was just joking!" is a common example of this kind of impulsive, reactive harassment, and comes in many forms.

I stand by this statement and my concern for this change.

I am not saying all or even most people behave that way. I don't think the game will suddenly be flooded with this type of player. I'm just saying that this is an annoyance from a particular crowd that this game currently does not appear to have in appreciable numbers and that's one of the reasons I chose it.

It was my sentiment from the very first post. What I said has been taken to absurd extremes.

JiubLeRepenti · January 9

SilverBride wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Please don't let players hide pants. I don't want to group with naked players for World Bosses, or Incursions, or Dungeons or Trials, etc.. It looks too unrealistic and is very immersion breaking.

If you don't want to break immersion because of people removing their pants, then maybe you should actively ask ZOS to remove 95% of mounts/pets/emots/etc. added to the game these last 10 years.

I already have. Rather I have asked for a toggle to not have to see all the loud and flashy effects from these mounts and recalls.

I've been asking for that for years as well. But ZOS knows what sells best: flashy mounts and goofy emotes/personalities. That's what people are paying for.

SilverBride · January 9

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Please don't let players hide pants. I don't want to group with naked players for World Bosses, or Incursions, or Dungeons or Trials, etc.. It looks too unrealistic and is very immersion breaking.

If you don't want to break immersion because of people removing their pants, then maybe you should actively ask ZOS to remove 95% of mounts/pets/emots/etc. added to the game these last 10 years.

I already have. Rather I have asked for a toggle to not have to see all the loud and flashy effects from these mounts and recalls.

I've been asking for that for years as well. But ZOS knows what sells best: flashy mounts and goofy emotes/personalities. That's what people are paying for.

Then let them pay for them and have them. Just don't force someone else's like of loud and flashy things on me. Give us a toggle to hide them from our view.

AScarlato · January 9

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I said imagined because this topic is discussing a future ESO feature, not your past experience. Any harassment the request would supposedly prevent is imagined because it has not occurred.

Dude, you gotta stop using that word. It has serious negative connotations when it comes to this subject matter. Possible or predicted - absolutely not, and never, imagined.

No, I won’t. This situation is not the equivalent of real life atrocities. And the person I replied to imagined a “Massive difference in scale” and then backtracked on it.

I didn't backtrack on anything.

Well I must have misunderstood when you said "And acknowledged that my bad memories from those earlier games are likely biasing my opinion and that it is unlikely that a lot of people would switch to a 10 year old game just because of that change."

People switching to ESO now that they can remove pants was one of your theories on how harassment could increase.

Anyway we clearly disagree and have little common ground as to how much harassment this new option will cause, and whether it rises to the level of removing a cosmetic option for 99% of behaved players due to the actions of the very few that can already do this now and be reported.

spartaxoxo · January 9

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I said imagined because this topic is discussing a future ESO feature, not your past experience. Any harassment the request would supposedly prevent is imagined because it has not occurred.

Dude, you gotta stop using that word. It has serious negative connotations when it comes to this subject matter. Possible or predicted - absolutely not, and never, imagined.

No, I won’t. This situation is not the equivalent of real life atrocities. And the person I replied to imagined a “Massive difference in scale” and then backtracked on it.

I didn't backtrack on anything.

Well I must have misunderstood when you said "And acknowledged that my bad memories from those earlier games are likely biasing my opinion and that it is unlikely that a lot of people would switch to a 10 year old game just because of that change."

People switching to ESO now that they can remove pants was one of your theories on how harassment could increase.

Anyway we clearly disagree and have little common ground as to how much harassment this new option will cause, and whether it rises to the level of removing a cosmetic option for 99% of behaved players due to the actions of the very few that can already do this now and be reported.

You did. I wasn't backtracking but reiterating what I had already said from the beginning. That my concerns may not play out in this game due to its age and general marketing.

In the opening post I said what happens in general with games that are like that, my past experiences in them, and why those design decisions lead to that problem. I then expressed concern with that coming to this game because of those naturally occuring consequences of some designs being easier to abuse than others.

I then pointed out that it may not actually play out this way in this game. Just because games like that might have those problems as a general principle does NOT mean this one will. I pointed out factors like the age of the game that would mitigate such problems. I also pointed out my bias (I have experienced really bad sexual harassment in games) so that anyone reading my posts can keep that in mind.

It doesn't mean that I have changed my mind. Just because something often plays out a certain way doesn't mean that it always will.

Also there would be no removal. The feature does not exist yet.

Malyore · January 9

SilverBride wrote: »

I wonder how players will feel about being teabagged by a player not wearing pants.

It depends on if they're argonian or not.

AScarlato · January 9

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I said imagined because this topic is discussing a future ESO feature, not your past experience. Any harassment the request would supposedly prevent is imagined because it has not occurred.

Dude, you gotta stop using that word. It has serious negative connotations when it comes to this subject matter. Possible or predicted - absolutely not, and never, imagined.

No, I won’t. This situation is not the equivalent of real life atrocities. And the person I replied to imagined a “Massive difference in scale” and then backtracked on it.

I didn't backtrack on anything.

Well I must have misunderstood when you said "And acknowledged that my bad memories from those earlier games are likely biasing my opinion and that it is unlikely that a lot of people would switch to a 10 year old game just because of that change."

People switching to ESO now that they can remove pants was one of your theories on how harassment could increase.

Anyway we clearly disagree and have little common ground as to how much harassment this new option will cause, and whether it rises to the level of removing a cosmetic option for 99% of behaved players due to the actions of the very few that can already do this now and be reported.

You did. I wasn't backtracking but reiterating what I had already said from the beginning. That my concerns may not play out in this game due to its age and general marketing.

In the opening post I said what happens in general with games that are like that, my past experiences in them, and why those design decisions lead to that problem. I then expressed concern with that coming to this game because of those naturally occuring consequences of some designs being easier to abuse than others.

I then pointed out that it may not actually play out this way in this game. Just because games like that might have those problems as a general principle does NOT mean this one will. I pointed out factors like the age of the game that would mitigate such problems.

Well, when you say things like "massive difference in scale" and "Yeah this and a bunch of people intentionally running around in nothing but their underwear trying to draw tons of attention to it (making inappropriate remarks to passersby, spamming emotes) is what I'm concerned about with this change" - it comes across very differently than "my concerns may not play out in this game" and " I don't think the game will suddenly be flooded with this type of player."

Are you advocating they cancel their intentions of allowing the removal of pants or not?

Malyore · January 9

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Please don't let players hide pants. I don't want to group with naked players for World Bosses, or Incursions, or Dungeons or Trials, etc.. It looks too unrealistic and is very immersion breaking.

If you don't want to break immersion because of people removing their pants, then maybe you should actively ask ZOS to remove 95% of mounts/pets/emots/etc. added to the game these last 10 years.

Trust me, I have been.

lillybit · January 9

Soarora wrote: »

I still just want to know why someone would want to hide pants! Not out of judgement but out of curiosity as to what the thought process would be behind such a look. Making a minidress out of a longer top?

I remember seeing an outfit in the fashion post where they had a lady with a chest piece that had a substantial crotch flap and no legs to show off lovely tattos that ran the length of their legs. It was gorgeous!

Think Almalexia, they do about the same with her.

spartaxoxo · January 9

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I said imagined because this topic is discussing a future ESO feature, not your past experience. Any harassment the request would supposedly prevent is imagined because it has not occurred.

Dude, you gotta stop using that word. It has serious negative connotations when it comes to this subject matter. Possible or predicted - absolutely not, and never, imagined.

No, I won’t. This situation is not the equivalent of real life atrocities. And the person I replied to imagined a “Massive difference in scale” and then backtracked on it.

I didn't backtrack on anything.

Well I must have misunderstood when you said "And acknowledged that my bad memories from those earlier games are likely biasing my opinion and that it is unlikely that a lot of people would switch to a 10 year old game just because of that change."

People switching to ESO now that they can remove pants was one of your theories on how harassment could increase.

Anyway we clearly disagree and have little common ground as to how much harassment this new option will cause, and whether it rises to the level of removing a cosmetic option for 99% of behaved players due to the actions of the very few that can already do this now and be reported.

You did. I wasn't backtracking but reiterating what I had already said from the beginning. That my concerns may not play out in this game due to its age and general marketing.

In the opening post I said what happens in general with games that are like that, my past experiences in them, and why those design decisions lead to that problem. I then expressed concern with that coming to this game because of those naturally occuring consequences of some designs being easier to abuse than others.

I then pointed out that it may not actually play out this way in this game. Just because games like that might have those problems as a general principle does NOT mean this one will. I pointed out factors like the age of the game that would mitigate such problems.

Well, when you say things like "massive difference in scale" and "Yeah this and a bunch of people intentionally running around in nothing but their underwear trying to draw tons of attention to it (making inappropriate remarks to passersby, spamming emotes) is what I'm concerned about with this change" - it comes across very differently than "my concerns may not play out in this game."

Are you advocating they cancel their intentions of allowing the removal of pants or not?

When you cherry pick statements like that you can miss nuance. I am not engaged in an extremist opinion on either side of the fence. I would rather they not do it but I'm also willing to test it out to see if there's an issue. Because I fully understand that things may not play out as I fear and that the fear is partially coming from a place of bad past experiences rather than current implementation.

AScarlato · January 9

lillybit wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I still just want to know why someone would want to hide pants! Not out of judgement but out of curiosity as to what the thought process would be behind such a look. Making a minidress out of a longer top?

I remember seeing an outfit in the fashion post where they had a lady with a chest piece that had a substantial crotch flap and no legs to show off lovely tattos that ran the length of their legs. It was gorgeous!

Think Almalexia, they do about the same with her.

I know in Final Fantasy XIV, where you can already remove everything as you desire, many people use the option so they can wear a long shirt and also boots that can go quite high over the knee, for a nice aesthetic.

That game also has various underwear / swimsuit bottoms that are sometimes used for the same reason. As an aside, they actually have a leg piece that looks like underwear that mysteriously makes your butt bigger - so of course that is probably the most single-used pants item in the game lol.

Curious what outfits people will put together in ESO's armory.

RE: "When you cherry pick statements like that you can miss nuance."

Well, some of the things I "cherry picked" were nearly the entire post - like your initial response to mine. Also specific arguments can be discussed if they are the foundation of a conclusion. That said it seems you are fine with the option moving ahead, so not much to see here at this point.

spartaxoxo · January 9

AScarlato wrote: »

Well, some of the things I "cherry picked" were nearly the entire post - like your initial response to mine. Also specific arguments can be discussed if they are the foundation of a conclusion. That said it seems you are fine with the option moving ahead, so not much to see here at this point.

They weren't foundation to a conclusion. The conclusion was explicitly

I am not saying all or even most people behave that way. I don't think the game will suddenly be flooded with this type of player. I'm just saying that this is an annoyance from a particular crowd that this game currently does not appear to have in appreciable numbers and that's one of the reasons I chose it. I do not have pleasant memories about games that allow women to be overly scantily clad as a female gamer and I generally avoid them.

My initial reply to you was simply to explain a point of clarity. Not to change my post. This was the very first thing I said and remains my position. I would prefer this feature not happen. But, they already announced it so they can test it out and revert it if causes too many issues. Maybe it won't. I'd be glad if it didn't. Because I do understand there's some genuinely nice outfits that can be made. I'd be very happy if doesn't happen. I hope it's something ZOS monitors as they implement this. And if it causes problems, maybe they could add a performance mode. They should probably add one either way as there's a whole slate of problems one would solve.

Razmirra · January 9

We do have the ignore function too, so anything potentially lewd (also we have a profanity filter) said by a person doing this (which is likely to be far and few between) can't be seen.

We cannot judge this just because maybe 10 in 10,000 people may do this.

ZOS_Icy · January 9

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

Panthermic · January 9

Maybe I'm missing something, but there is NOTHING related to this new feature that wasn't possible since the game is available. Just read what's written in the function's description--and try it out if you don't believe in what you read--that it works exactly the way it's written.

Thus, to show your underwear, you need to have your armor removed from its slot, which was always possible before this new feature, as well.

So I guess nothing to see here, and nothing needs to be disabled. Report the bad actor(s) and move on.

SilverBride · January 9

Panthermic wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something, but there is NOTHING related to this new feature that wasn't possible since the game is available. Just read what's written in the function's description--and try it out if you don't believe in what you read--that it works exactly the way it's written.

Thus, to show your underwear, you need to have your armor removed from its slot, which was always possible before this new feature, as well.

So I guess nothing to see here, and nothing needs to be disabled. Report the bad actor(s) and move on.

The difference is that players had to remove their armor, which they weren't doing when running group content or PvPing. Now they can keep their armor on but still look naked, and I personally will leave any group that has naked looking players in it just on the principle.

Estin · January 9

There's plenty of revealing items in the game already. You have sai sahan, nordic bathing towel, fang lair, waking flame, and some more leg styles that look like you're wearing booty shorts which are roughly the same length as the underwear in the game. Not allowing players to hide legs won't do anything, people can just go nude in the overland to do the same thing, wear the nordic bathing towel to not have to remove any armor, wear sai sahan, or any of the other styles I mentioned. There's also some polymorphs that are just straight up nude. The hunger, the frost troll, the spriggan, molag bal, and even the skeleton. Just because it has fur or completely bones makes it suddenly ok? If you want to prevent 1 option, you will have to prevent all options, and we all know that's not even a rational decision to make because there's absolutely nothing wrong with any of those styles or polymorphs.

And to share some experience, a couple of months ago I was in a BG and some player in a skeleton polymorph started to hump my argonian. They stood directly behind me and spammed an emote to make it look like they were hip thrusting. I was confused, thinking "WTH???" to myself since I didn't know that was a thing you could do in the game. I moved, they moved back behind me and continued, so I just bashed at them and they stopped. It was weird, but in the end I found it humorous since it was such an out of the blue thing I've never seen before. I didn't feel like I got violated, and yes, I see my characters as a part of me. I also didn't think I had to go on the forums to petition ZOS to remove the skeleton polymorph or the ability to emote spam because of what happened. At the end of the day, it's just a game and no harm was done, and I don't believe I ever saw that player again despite doing on average 5 BGs a day.

Editing to add more examples of already nude models in this game, but there's also the werewolf model. There's no underwear at all on it. Yeah, it's featureless between its legs, but is that somehow different than underwear? Is it somehow acceptable just because it's not human? It still walks on 2 feet and is controlled by another player, so the result is the same. Should we force all werewolves to wear pants to prevent the possibility of some creepy werewolf player from standing on top of you? Just give them a pair of jeans or something like a digimon?

NotaDaedraWorshipper · January 9

The mass should not be punished for the actions of a few, actions which are not allowed, are reportable, and they would do no matter what.

I used to play Age of Conan back in the day. Was one of the first mmos with full voice acting and also aimed at adults. When its version of transmog/outfits came, you could from the start click to hide any piece of armour you wanted and run around naked, and it was more naked than what it is in ESO. Was people running around naked and harassed en masse? No, it was the same amount as it was before, because people who wants to harass has and will continue to do so in some way.

At most it was more people than unusual that was half naked because the feature was new, but it cooled down as new features does and most people were just happy about having cosmetics options and could give their characters the looks they wanted.

Will be the same in ESO. Harassers will continue to be harassers and should be reported, while most people aren't that and will be happy have more options for their outfits.

Syldras · January 9

Estin wrote: »

Should we force all werewolves to wear pants to prevent the possibility of some creepy werewolf player from standing on top of you? Just give them a pair of jeans or something like a digimon?

Oh, thanks for bringing awareness to that problem. I fixed my concept of the female werewolf from the other thread accordingly.

Gaebriel0410 · January 9

I doubt a floppy lance would be able to negate full armour.

If a pantsless player next to you makes you feel "real harassment" then honestly you should take a step back and consider taking things less ultra seriously.

Don't get me wrong I think it's juvenile as hell and I would rather not see it either, but it's also the most harmless thing in the world. Citing it as a reason for not having the outfit option to remove pants is honestly ridiculous.