It's 3 rooms too long, but it is not LoM.

Last'One wrote: »

Because any dungeon is created to be played, not skipped. I believe the developers and the entire design team make dungeons so players actually play the game instead of skipping it. You want to skip? Fine, skip it. Don’t enter. Go play alone.

But anyway… this is ESO. A game where nothing makes sense. A game where players play the game just to skip it. A game where developers spend company time, resources, and money to create content for players to play, and at the same time allow them to skip all of it. Same for mechanics. Developers and the rest of the team invent crazy mechanics just for players to skip them all with DPS. What a [snip] game ESO has turned into.

You want to skip it? Why go there at all? Don’t go, and congrats, you just skipped it.

Then, why we can use mount at the Blood Forge?

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Because any dungeon is created to be played, not skipped. I believe the developers and the entire design team make dungeons so players actually play the game instead of skipping it. You want to skip? Fine, skip it. Don’t enter. Go play alone.

But anyway… this is ESO. A game where nothing makes sense. A game where players play the game just to skip it. A game where developers spend company time, resources, and money to create content for players to play, and at the same time allow them to skip all of it. Same for mechanics. Developers and the rest of the team invent crazy mechanics just for players to skip them all with DPS. What a [snip] game ESO has turned into.

You want to skip it? Why go there at all? Don’t go, and congrats, you just skipped it.

Then, why we can use mount at the Blood Forge?

"...A game where developers spend company time, resources, and money to create content for players to play, and at the same time allow them to skip all of it..."

"...You want to skip it? Why go there at all? Don’t go, and congrats, you just skipped it...."

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Basically say, level design is tool for how to design the game.
Redundancy is not the game concept at all.

If that dungeon concept was "sniper mission" like call of duty 4. then I'll accept it though...

And a game should be something players log in to play, not to skip. Why do people even log in just to skip the game? I mean… why?

Because they’re tired? Don’t log in.
Because dungeons are boring? Don’t do them.
Whatever excuse players want to find to justify skipping content, then just don’t do it.


At this point, I only log in for less than five minutes everyday. And honestly, I’m so tired of the game, not the game itself, but what ESO has turned into. I didn’t even log in today to grab the last 3tickets. Why? Because for me, the game is bad as hell right now.
So… should I ask to be given the tickets for free without playing the game?
Why do other players have the right to earn rewards after skipping the game, but I don’t have the same right to get those three tickets without logging in?
I’m skipping too… No??

Soarora wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Because any dungeon is created to be played, not skipped. I believe the developers and the entire design team make dungeons so players actually play the game instead of skipping it. You want to skip? Fine, skip it. Don’t enter. Go play alone.

But anyway… this is ESO. A game where nothing makes sense. A game where players play the game just to skip it. A game where developers spend company time, resources, and money to create content for players to play, and at the same time allow them to skip all of it. Same for mechanics. Developers and the rest of the team invent crazy mechanics just for players to skip them all with DPS. What a [snip] game ESO has turned into.

You want to skip it? Why go there at all? Don’t go, and congrats, you just skipped it.

Then, why we can use mount at the Blood Forge?

Don’t mention it or ZOS might take it away from us too :,(.

Every outdoor area of a dungeon feels like you should be able to mount there, so when you can’t, it’s frustrating. That said, I would say there’s a near 0% chance we GAIN the ability to mount in dungeons as the point of the dungeon is to kill everything. Even though you and I might do skips, the devs intend for us to kill everything. They’re not going to make it easier for us to not kill things.

I just want to cut meaningless running time which is no combat and no contents.
Just no more meaningless LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG distance running.

Last'One wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Basically say, level design is tool for how to design the game.
Redundancy is not the game concept at all.

If that dungeon concept was "sniper mission" like call of duty 4. then I'll accept it though...

And a game should be something players log in to play, not to skip. Why do people even log in just to skip the game? I mean… why?

Because they’re tired? Don’t log in.
Because dungeons are boring? Don’t do them.
Whatever excuse players want to find to justify skipping content, then just don’t do it.


At this point, I only log in for less than five minutes everyday. And honestly, I’m so tired of the game, not the game itself, but what ESO has turned into. I didn’t even log in today to grab the last 3tickets. Why? Because for me, the game is bad as hell right now.
So… should I ask to be given the tickets for free without playing the game?
Why do other players have the right to earn rewards after skipping the game, but I don’t have the same right to get those three tickets without logging in?
I’m skipping too… No??

Wait a minute Wait a minute Hold up there

I don't think there's really anyone on the forums or most players in the game who don't run the dungeon and try to enjoy it. That is not now and has never been the issue with people running to enjoy their time. That is what ESO is about, surely.

No, the problem is gear running, stickerbook collecting. As a matter of fact, I do remember Maarselok run and this new one, among several others, like the op was saying. That is what he's talking about is the extreme amount of time it takes per run, especially when things like jewlery and especially weapons only drop from chests and the boss at the end, one per run or chest(s).

That's what he's talking about. And yes, that is a problem. Especially that and when you work so hard to grind Azure and then the set gets nerfed into the ground to make the ball groupers happy. Its not that we don't appreciate the developers or the design. No no no. It's this insane grind which saps the life out of you, that you have to do to earn the gear. Cause in majority of cases dungeon gear is no longer sellable at Guild Traders.

If that bound loot gear was sellable at the Guild Traders once again then that would alleviate the need for so many runs, given the set and availability. Grinding all the gear from places like that Maarselok run was mind blowing.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Because any dungeon is created to be played, not skipped. I believe the developers and the entire design team make dungeons so players actually play the game instead of skipping it. You want to skip? Fine, skip it. Don’t enter. Go play alone.

But anyway… this is ESO. A game where nothing makes sense. A game where players play the game just to skip it. A game where developers spend company time, resources, and money to create content for players to play, and at the same time allow them to skip all of it. Same for mechanics. Developers and the rest of the team invent crazy mechanics just for players to skip them all with DPS. What a [snip] game ESO has turned into.

You want to skip it? Why go there at all? Don’t go, and congrats, you just skipped it.

This is funny since a large portion of the starting area in Black Gem Foundry can be skipped.

I haven't learned the skips yet, I know you can skip 3 pulls (the two after the first bridge and the one with the three stone atronachs). I'm interested in learning what the other skips are! I'll learn at some point I'm sure LOL.

AvalonRanger wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Basically say, level design is tool for how to design the game.
Redundancy is not the game concept at all.

If that dungeon concept was "sniper mission" like call of duty 4. then I'll accept it though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3bfcM5vWpE

Tank: "DPS. Can you snipe that monster?"
DPS: "Yes sir captain. But I need taunt."
Tank: "....".

Otherwise, no more "vacant landscape mesh" anymore.

Just I wanted to say, level design should be suitable structure for ESO game concept.

Estin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

what he's talking about is the extreme amount of time it takes per run,

DPS dependent of course, but the dungeon can be fully cleared, on veteran, in less than 20 minutes. On normal, it takes less than 15 minutes. I'm sorry, but that is simply not an extreme amount of time.

Dungeon lengths are normally fine, but the biggest issue with dungeons is the time it takes to find one. A DD can easily wait 30-60 minutes in queue for a specific dungeon, while a tank is subjected to getting very bad players as a tradeoff for faster queue times. The problem is exacerbated in vet mode. When this is factored in, it is an extreme amount of time per run.

Find friends. Form a dungeon group. Have regular runs. Learn and improve together. It's a big game, with lots of players, connected from all over the world, and set in a fantasy world ... MMORPG.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

what he's talking about is the extreme amount of time it takes per run,

DPS dependent of course, but the dungeon can be fully cleared, on veteran, in less than 20 minutes. On normal, it takes less than 15 minutes. I'm sorry, but that is simply not an extreme amount of time.

The length of some dungeons combined with whatever mechanics they setup, can actually take a notably long amount of time to clear. This is not just me talking. I remember Maarselok madness and others as well. People will sometimes quit playing out of sheer boredom and fatigue. Ask me how I know that. It's one thing for the devs to setup a nice raid, but it's another to make it so dang tedious and lengthy that people get bored by it.

That said... I am well aware of what could be done. Believe that. But what could happen and what actually does happen ain't ever been similar. You make it sound so easy and you know what? For some it could be easier. But it's just not that simple. Everyone is not a umm DPS Superstar (though it's always a welcome thing when they are), they not always familiar with the run either. In fact, often there's so much gear to grind, especially if you're looking for all of it, that your Team is generally going to be randoms who are doing the best they can. Lot of times there are problems along the way. Sometimes there are bugs and the damn thing needs to get reset. Alot can happen and the volume of runs required is such that encourages things to happen by the extreme repetition. And that's not just my opinion; that's by the numbers.

There's a difference between what we think can be done and what people can actually do. And the gear grind for some of these runs is are ridiculous.

Estin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

what he's talking about is the extreme amount of time it takes per run,

DPS dependent of course, but the dungeon can be fully cleared, on veteran, in less than 20 minutes. On normal, it takes less than 15 minutes. I'm sorry, but that is simply not an extreme amount of time.

Dungeon lengths are normally fine, but the biggest issue with dungeons is the time it takes to find one. A DD can easily wait 30-60 minutes in queue for a specific dungeon, while a tank is subjected to getting very bad players as a tradeoff for faster queue times. The problem is exacerbated in vet mode. When this is factored in, it is an extreme amount of time per run.

Find friends. Form a dungeon group. Have regular runs. Learn and improve together. It's a big game, with lots of players, connected from all over the world, and set in a fantasy world ... MMORPG.

Telling someone to find friends is the same as telling a depressed person to just be happy. It's easier said than done and doesn't fix the problem.

It is the solution to the problem though. And please don't compare such nonsense to depression, it's not even remotely the same thing.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

what he's talking about is the extreme amount of time it takes per run,

DPS dependent of course, but the dungeon can be fully cleared, on veteran, in less than 20 minutes. On normal, it takes less than 15 minutes. I'm sorry, but that is simply not an extreme amount of time.

The length of some dungeons combined with whatever mechanics they setup, can actually take a notably long amount of time to clear. This is not just me talking. I remember Maarselok madness and others as well. People will sometimes quit playing out of sheer boredom and fatigue. Ask me how I know that. It's one thing for the devs to setup a nice raid, but it's another to make it so dang tedious and lengthy that people get bored by it.

That said... I am well aware of what could be done. Believe that. But what could happen and what actually does happen ain't ever been similar. You make it sound so easy and you know what? For some it could be easier. But it's just not that simple. Everyone is not a umm DPS Superstar (though it's always a welcome thing when they are), they not always familiar with the run either. In fact, often there's so much gear to grind, especially if you're looking for all of it, that your Team is generally going to be randoms who are doing the best they can. Lot of times there are problems along the way. Sometimes there are bugs and the damn thing needs to get reset. Alot can happen and the volume of runs required is such that encourages things to happen by the extreme repetition. And that's not just my opinion; that's by the numbers.

There's a difference between what we think can be done and what people can actually do. And the gear grind for some of these runs is are ridiculous.

People don't need to be DPS superstars. They are dungeons, the same gear drops on normal as it does on veteran. Randoms are always a factor, which is why I'd suggest running it with non-randoms.

That doesn't change the reality that even if it took an hour to clear that still isn't an "extreme amount of time".

People don't need to be DPS superstars

No, I think people should be themselves. But having good DPS helps. Noticeably so. In fact, it helps so much that you know, I might argue that like if you're going to be grinding gear thru consecutive runs on a regular basis, then people do need... to be DPS Superstars. It's the only logical conclusion because for those normal runs the role of a Tank and especially Healer are significantly diminished. That's why often in my groups we replace the Healer with a 3rd DPS. It does wonders for getting us out of there in a timely manner.

That doesn't change the reality that even if it took an hour to clear that still isn't an "extreme amount of time".

Who wants to wait an hour to get 1 weapon and a chance at a chest or two. Also, previously you threw at figure at me of 15 to 20 minutes for the Maarselox Madness. Ok now we're talking an hour. Does this include waiting in Queue before the run? Like an hour encompasses the wait and the run on normal from start to finish?

I mean, to be honest, quite frankly both of these time frames are completely outrageous and unacceptable. Is it sometimes the expected norm, yes. But waiting in queue and taking a full hour to be done OR fast queue and 20 mins to hour to be done for a normal run?

Nah man. That's not right. Something is wrong with that. If your DPS is that bad, I hate to judge, but if you're doing these grinds often and you're waiting that long or your DPS is that bad then that becomes another problem entirely and it also has this way of becoming everyone's problem in that group. That is the reality of it.

twisttop138 wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

what he's talking about is the extreme amount of time it takes per run,

DPS dependent of course, but the dungeon can be fully cleared, on veteran, in less than 20 minutes. On normal, it takes less than 15 minutes. I'm sorry, but that is simply not an extreme amount of time.

Dungeon lengths are normally fine, but the biggest issue with dungeons is the time it takes to find one. A DD can easily wait 30-60 minutes in queue for a specific dungeon, while a tank is subjected to getting very bad players as a tradeoff for faster queue times. The problem is exacerbated in vet mode. When this is factored in, it is an extreme amount of time per run.

Find friends. Form a dungeon group. Have regular runs. Learn and improve together. It's a big game, with lots of players, connected from all over the world, and set in a fantasy world ... MMORPG.

Telling someone to find friends is the same as telling a depressed person to just be happy. It's easier said than done and doesn't fix the problem.

You don't have to find friends. The next time you're in a popular zone, look at the recruitment spam. There are many guilds out there that do just dungeons or whatever it is people like. It can be hard, sure. My social guild does vet dungeon learning runs weekly, my trials guilds do many learning runs a week. There's no shortage of folks that would love to find players that are also interested in learning and progressing together. If you're on psna DM me.

Weekly learning runs are a different thing from grinding out a set though, which is the use case I'm speaking from. It's not easy to find 2-3 individuals who would be willing to run the same dungeon for 3-4 hours straight to no real benefit for them. And I've been in guilds for pledges. Even for those, it's usually crickets or only 1 person, to which you still need to queue and wait. It's faster with 1 other person, yes, but the wait can still be long before the queue pops. Group finder is the same, and I would argue that it's longer than just queueing for the dungeon you want because on average, I still had to wait 30+ minutes for the roles to fill through that method.

The original point I was refuting is that yes, it is an extreme amount of time when you factor in the wait times between runs. Like, vSE only takes roughly 30 minutes to complete. In that vacuum, it's not an extreme amount of time per run, but once you take it out of that vacuum and factor in the 30-60+ minutes it takes to form the group in GF while also advertising in guilds and multiple zones, it becomes an extreme amount of time per run when grinding for a set. I'm not saying it's a problem ZOS has to devote time to fix. It's a population issue, not a game design issue. I'm just pointing out to the other person that it is an extreme amount of time per run when factoring in wait times, and that you can't just conveniently find friends to speed things up.

Vulkunne wrote: »

Also, previously you threw at figure at me of 15 to 20 minutes for the Maarselox Madness.

Nope. You must have imagined that one.