Was Mannimarco already a Lich during ESO? (Spoilers)

Aliyavana · January 5

The game avoids calling Mannimarco a lich with no hints at it at all. I was hoping Solstice would mention it.

The only source that really talks about Mannimarco's Lichdom is the book Mannimarco, King of Worms, but that is a book that does not appear in ESO.

Examining the poem, it's essentially a biography that details Mannimarco's life.

"They say Galerion left the Guild, calling it 'a morass,"

The above line happens after the following line

"Mannimarco, Worm King, world's first of the undying liches."

If we go by the chronology presented, The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel has Vanus Galerion leave the Mages Guild sometime before ESO

"But Vanus Galerion began to distance himself from the organization and is rumored to have stated that "the Guild has become nothing more than an intricate morass of political infighting."

If we take the statement of Mannimarco being a lich being mentioned before Vanus Galerion left the Mages Guild as a timeline, he would already be a Lich. Of course, the title "world's first of the undying liches" has a variety of implications, especially since Mannimarco claims he is an Aldmer.

When do you all think Mannimarco became a Lich?

Soarora · January 5

I think he oversells himself in the autobiography. He’s not above lying. I don’t think he’s an aldmer and I don’t think he’s one of the first liches.

What I find odd though is that he does not look extremely old like Vanus and Divayth do. So, he’s either younger than he says or he’s already a lich (or invented magic plastic surgery). That said, if he is a lich then he’d have to do powerful illusion magic to cover his uh… lich…ness, surely. It really would’ve been nice to see ZOS cover this…

Also, if he was a lich then what was the point of the light of meridia shenanigans? UESP says a lich can revive as long as their phylactery is in tact: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lich

Maybe by becoming a lich, he escaped his fate from Solstice or something. I’d lean towards he becomes a lich sometime after ESO (but obviously before Daggerfall).

Aliyavana · January 5

Soarora wrote: »

I think he oversells himself in the autobiography. He’s not above lying. I don’t think he’s an aldmer and I don’t think he’s one of the first liches.

What I find odd though is that he does not look extremely old like Vanus and Divayth do. So, he’s either younger than he says or he’s already a lich (or invented magic plastic surgery). That said, if he is a lich then he’d have to do powerful illusion magic to cover his uh… lich…ness, surely. It really would’ve been nice to see ZOS cover this…

Also, if he was a lich then what was the point of the light of meridia shenanigans? UESP says a lich can revive as long as their phylactery is in tact: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lich

Maybe by becoming a lich, he escaped his fate from Solstice or something. I’d lean towards he becomes a lich sometime after ESO (but obviously before Daggerfall).

Mannimarco was going to revive after we killed him but Molag Bal lifted his soul from Nirn for trying to betray him. my guess is maybe a pact between Bal and Mannimarco might be interfering with his revival, hence why the gift of death was required to revive him.

As for illusion magic, we do have examples of liches hiding their undeath, like vastarie being an example

SpaceElf · February 6

"But Vanus Galerion began to distance himself from the organization and is rumored to have stated that "the Guild has become nothing more than an intricate morass of political infighting."

If we take the statement of Mannimarco being a lich being mentioned before Vanus Galerion left the Mages Guild as a timeline, he would already be a Lich. Of course, the title "world's first of the undying liches" has a variety of implications, especially since Mannimarco claims he is an Aldmer.

When do you all think Mannimarco became a Lich?

I actually don't think he is yet (as of the moment in ESO). He's been dead for some time. Like, dead dead. No phylactery needed when your soul is otherwise imprisoned, and your corpse is rotting in an admittedly tight looking dope sarcophagus. Say what you will about the guy but if only we all could have a pinch of such personal self-esteem.

Assuming ES Lich rules run parallel to my assumptions: As far as I am aware, unless I missed it, Mannimarco either does not yet have a phylactery, or has something else going on we don't know about. Either way, it doesn't matter much to me this 'early' on - as he was never successful in resurrecting his own corpse before Bal pulled his soul back into CH, I'd say, no, he's not yet a lich. He's like. A dead mortal with a soul in a place one doesn't want it. Granted, a very powerful one but if you think about it, Mannimarco was effectively jailbroken out. I got the impression he didn't know what was going on.

He was also rezzed in the Colored Rooms, which is not...great if your goal is to step into undeath.

Now that I'm thinking about it, is Wormblood a lich? We don't see about or know of a phylactery- just see him soul hopping back into his own body.

Speaking of first, as much as I concur that Mannimarco is his own hype man, and is prone to exaggeration, one can validly read that passage as "I am the best among the undying liches that will exist or will ever exist." not that he's saying he's literally the first. He's not, and he knows it. Even he couldn't make that claim literally, (there's boasting and then there is straight up contradictions) and that is because I don't think he needs or wants to - he's the best lich, or he's gonna be the best lich, just you wait. LOL.

Additionally Mannimarco framing it in such a way that, imo, is a direct jab at Galerion - as in, using the timeline to make Vanus look like a failure , while Mannimarco achieved (one of) his goals.(ie: The Guild he built with the intention to stop him. Archmage can't fight Marco without a united front)

I think he becomes a lich before Vanus dies, obviously, but we all know how questionable time behaves in this franchise.

Aliyavana · February 6

SpaceElf wrote: »

"But Vanus Galerion began to distance himself from the organization and is rumored to have stated that "the Guild has become nothing more than an intricate morass of political infighting."

If we take the statement of Mannimarco being a lich being mentioned before Vanus Galerion left the Mages Guild as a timeline, he would already be a Lich. Of course, the title "world's first of the undying liches" has a variety of implications, especially since Mannimarco claims he is an Aldmer.

When do you all think Mannimarco became a Lich?

I actually don't think he is yet (as of the moment in ESO). He's been dead for some time. Like, dead dead. No phylactery needed when your soul is otherwise imprisoned, and your corpse is rotting in an admittedly tight looking dope sarcophagus. Say what you will about the guy but if only we all could have a pinch of such personal self-esteem.

Assuming ES Lich rules run parallel to my assumptions: As far as I am aware, unless I missed it, Mannimarco either does not yet have a phylactery, or has something else going on we don't know about. Either way, it doesn't matter much to me this 'early' on - as he was never successful in resurrecting his own corpse before Bal pulled his soul back into CH, I'd say, no, he's not yet a lich. He's like. A dead mortal with a soul in a place one doesn't want it. Granted, a very powerful one but if you think about it, Mannimarco was effectively jailbroken out. I got the impression he didn't know what was going on.

He was also rezzed in the Colored Rooms, which is not...great if your goal is to step into undeath.

Now that I'm thinking about it, is Wormblood a lich? We don't see about or know of a phylactery- just see him soul hopping back into his own body.

Speaking of first, as much as I concur that Mannimarco is his own hype man, and is prone to exaggeration, one can validly read that passage as "I am the best among the undying liches that will exist or will ever exist." not that he's saying he's literally the first. He's not, and he knows it. Even he couldn't make that claim literally, (there's boasting and then there is straight up contradictions) and that is because I don't think he needs or wants to - he's the best lich, or he's gonna be the best lich, just you wait. LOL.

Additionally Mannimarco framing it in such a way that, imo, is a direct jab at Galerion - as in, using the timeline to make Vanus look like a failure , while Mannimarco achieved (one of) his goals.(ie: The Guild he built with the intention to stop him. Archmage can't fight Marco without a united front)

I think he becomes a lich before Vanus dies, obviously, but we all know how questionable time behaves in this franchise.

Liches in TES do not need to keep a Phylactery around after they have used it to completely become a lich per https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Path_of_Transcendence

It is possible that Mannimarco already used a Phylactery and tossed it away.

Mannimarco was originally going to resurrect himself after we kill him during ESO's original main quest, but Molag Bal interrupted him and took him to Coldharbour to torture him for plotting against him. During Solstice, we kill him twice and resurrects himself both times despite Mannimarco stating he is not in his full power in Wormblood's body.

Vanus Galerion also sorta hints that Mannimarco has died before.

"Mannimarco has been a thorn in my side since practically the first day I met him. And he has an annoying habit of refusing to stay dead!"

Lord_Hev · February 10

The mistake here is attributing lich to an archaic definition. There are big differences between standard liches, nether liches, dragon priests, Vastarie, Mannimarco. All of whom fall under "lich."

Mannimarco resurrected himself in the MQ fight, practically on the spot. The claim to being the first of undying liches references the fact that he perfected the art in such a way you could never guess he was one at first glance. I don't think it is coincidence that Vastarie has a "similar form" considering they were contemporaries.