SPOILERS Eastern Solstice quest Dismantling the Worm choices

katanagirl1 · January 2

I did this quest on my main character the other day, and I was totally surprised at some of the dialogue in it. First of all, you meet this Redguard Ojouna, who joined the Worm Cult, saw the things they (and she) were doing to people, and asks you to escort her to Sunport to face the judgment of the Stirk Fellowship for her part in the necromancy, murder and soul-stealing. You help her stop some rituals, and then your character calmly suggests that she could just walk away and start a new life rather than turn herself in. I was sort of shocked. Our characters have been helping NPCs make decisions for many years, but I had no other option than to say this to her. I always choose to have people pay for the choices they have made. Once I did this, the NPC got sort of surly like I should have picked the other option. I read about the quest choices on UESP, and it seems the “start a new life” option is seen as positive and the one I picked as negative.

Has anyone else felt the same about this quest?

Syldras · January 2

In this case it didn't bother me since my character chose to let her go anyway, so I didn't even notice what would happen if I had chosen otherwise.

Spoilers about other East Solstice quests ahead:

But yes, there seems to be quite some "moralizing" in several quests this time where we get a choice to make through dialogue but get scolded for one of them; or it's even completely ignored anyway (talk about the quest Lost Among The Ashes - especially the ending, where we can choose to spare some characters, but the quest npc just kills them anyway).

Also a bit weird to me was one short side quest where we found out an npc murdered someone. Even if we choose that this person should get arrested, all that happens is that this npc (who felt shifty and unreliable the whole time) tells us they'll turn themselves in later - and the quest is over, and that npc just remains standing there in the wilderness. And we can't do anything.

On top of that there's another quest (An Ambition Fulfilled) where the player character witnesses another npc (that we're allied with in that quest) murdering an innocent prisoner to steal their rags to pose as them, and we can't even comment on that.

metheglyn · January 2

Syldras wrote: »

On top of that there's another quest (An Ambition Fulfilled) where the player character witnesses another npc (that we're allied with in that quest) murdering an innocent prisoner to steal their rags to pose as them, and we can't even comment on that.

We could, but the npc's response was to just brush us off.

As for the Dismantling the Worm quest, I didn't think the choice to have her turn herself in was the "wrong" or "negative" choice. When I told her to do so, she sounded resigned rather than surly. I do agree, though, that it was sort of odd for our character to suddenly suggest running away when the npc had already said she would turn herself in. But like all npcs in Tamriel, she couldn't actually make a choice until some stranger told her what to do. It's an odd sort of existence these npcs live, that's for sure.

Syldras · January 2

metheglyn wrote: »

We could, but the npc's response was to just brush us off.

And we can't react in any way to that, so it doesn't really make any difference. It's strange how many questionable situations there are this time where the player character is just supposed to be accepting of it.

metheglyn wrote: »

As for the Dismantling the Worm quest, I didn't think the choice to have her turn herself in was the "wrong" or "negative" choice. When I told her to do so, she sounded resigned rather than surly. I do agree, though, that it was sort of odd for our character to suddenly suggest running away when the npc had already said she would turn herself in.

Why? It might not have been the wording displayed, but for me it was my character seeing she was regretting the whole thing and convincing her not to throw her life away but just leave and start anew.

katanagirl1 · January 2

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

We could, but the npc's response was to just brush us off.

And we can't react in any way to that, so it doesn't really make any difference. It's strange how many questionable situations there are this time where the player character is just supposed to be accepting of it.

metheglyn wrote: »

As for the Dismantling the Worm quest, I didn't think the choice to have her turn herself in was the "wrong" or "negative" choice. When I told her to do so, she sounded resigned rather than surly. I do agree, though, that it was sort of odd for our character to suddenly suggest running away when the npc had already said she would turn herself in.

Why? It might not have been the wording displayed, but for me it was my character seeing she was regretting the whole thing and convincing her not to throw her life away but just leave and start anew.

In the past we usually got dialogue to back up either choice but we didn’t get those until we had already picked one option or the other. That is the odd thing I see.

Syldras · January 2

What bothers me most are really those murders by quest companion npcs in at least 3 quests I can think of immediately (of only 13 side quests in total that East Solstice had). Realistically, this should cause a reaction from the player character, possibly even an intense one that turns the whole situation around. Still, nothing happens because we can't really react. This makes it feel like in most cases the its's already predefined anyway what will happen and how the quest outcome will be.

Same in dialogue choices, even when it comes to less murderous things: Either we incidentally do the expected thing, or if not - we get "shoved" into the correct direction. Indeed this feels very different to that base game chatter where random npcs would comment on past choices we made - I'm totally fine with that, especially since there were usually at least two different opinions on each situation.

metheglyn · January 2

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

We could, but the npc's response was to just brush us off.

And we can't react in any way to that, so it doesn't really make any difference. It's strange how many questionable situations there are this time where the player character is just supposed to be accepting of it.

Yeah, I thought that was a bit off--for sure my character would have had something to say about it. But it seemed like we were meant to really like that particular npc and just go along with whatever they said and wanted to do.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As for the Dismantling the Worm quest, I didn't think the choice to have her turn herself in was the "wrong" or "negative" choice. When I told her to do so, she sounded resigned rather than surly. I do agree, though, that it was sort of odd for our character to suddenly suggest running away when the npc had already said she would turn herself in.

Why? It might not have been the wording displayed, but for me it was my character seeing she was regretting the whole thing and convincing her not to throw her life away but just leave and start anew.

Her regret was clear, yes, but my character would not be the type to say, "Hey, just run away." That's what I find odd--that regardless of which choice we eventually make, our character initially gives the suggestion for her to leave. If she had already decided to turn herself in, why would my character make a suggestion that she not, only to then have to make the final decision for her (which in my case was to turn herself in)?

katanagirl1 wrote: »

In the past we usually got dialogue to back up either choice but we didn’t get those until we had already picked one option or the other. That is the odd thing I see.

I did find the way the conversation was structured was a bit awkward. I put the notion in her head that she could leave, she asks me what she should do, and then I say, "Turn yourself in."

Syldras · January 2

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I thought that was a bit off--for sure my character would have had something to say about it. But it seemed like we were meant to really like that particular npc and just go along with whatever they said and wanted to do.

And that's the next problem: That the writing already defines for us how our character thinks about other people - whom we like, dislike, find attractive, etc. Which can be very off if one's not someone who shares some expected standard taste, I guess...

katanagirl1 · January 2

I haven’t done the other quests mentioned here yet. I will be sure to compare the dialogue there and see if it feels off to me as well. I remember @Syldras that you would like to take the evil road sometimes, that hasn’t been an option so far.

But yeah, I agree @metheglyn it just seems like my character has never tried to convince an npc character not to do something that they said they would do before, especially if it involves innocents being killed.

Syldras · January 2

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I haven’t done the other quests mentioned here yet. I will be sure to compare the dialogue there and see if it feels off to me as well. I remember @Syldras that you would like to take the evil road sometimes, that hasn’t been an option so far.

There's one quest (in Aldwilne Citadel in the Northeast) where our character can choose to do something horrible. Though I had the impression it's presented a bit as a thing justified by the circumstances (which can also be questioned, but that's only my personal opinion).

In any way, while I appreciate our character getting more choices, including immoral ones, deciding things for us isn't what I like to see. All my characters needing to be the flawless great hero was something I didn't like much, although I could understand that if they don't give different options at all, they'll go for the "good hero" type, of course. But having our characters just stand back and watch our quest "companions" doing horrible things (like those random murders), including player characters who are supposed to be good and moral people, feels even more off to me.

katanagirl1 · January 2

Syldras wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I haven’t done the other quests mentioned here yet. I will be sure to compare the dialogue there and see if it feels off to me as well. I remember @Syldras that you would like to take the evil road sometimes, that hasn’t been an option so far.

There's one quest (in Aldwilne Citadel in the Northeast) where our character can choose to do something horrible. Though I had the impression it's presented a bit as a thing justified by the circumstances (which can also be questioned, but that's only my personal opinion).

In any way, while I appreciate our character getting more choices, including immoral ones, deciding things for us isn't what I like to see. All my characters needing to be the flawless great hero was something I didn't like much, although I could understand that if they don't give different options at all, they'll go for the "good hero" type, of course. But having our characters just stand back and watch our quest "companions" doing horrible things (like those random murders), including player characters who are supposed to be good and moral people, feels even more off to me.

Sounds interesting, though I enjoy being the hero and would not be interested in my character doing immoral things. I hope to finish the areas on the map next week.

That reminds me of something about quests that has always made me laugh. Your character meets some random guy and that guy tells you about this person you have to go kill for whatever reason and your character is like…okay no problem. No questions asked sometimes. Certainly no fact-checking beforehand. It’s sort of strange that is considered just part of the game.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · January 3

Syldras wrote: »

And that's the next problem: That the writing already defines for us how our character thinks about other people - whom we like, dislike, find attractive, etc. Which can be very off if one's not someone who shares some expected standard taste, I guess...

This has come up at least as far back as Summerset. One of the delve’s quests has the PC’s only dialog option be to try to excuse the boss’s treason with ‘but she was trying to pay for her sister’s drug habit!’ like that makes it okay. 😒

Syldras · January 3

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

This has come up at least as far back as Summerset. One of the delve’s quests has the PC’s only dialog option be to try to excuse the boss’s treason with ‘but she was trying to pay for her sister’s drug habit!’ like that makes it okay. 😒

I know. But it feels even more jarring now that all those dialogue options give us the illusion that we could actually make choices - while often there is no real choice at all.

Thrudra_Magia · March 10

This quest is so broken it's not even funny.

Emeratis · March 11

So funny enough this thread catches my attention when I decide to start questing with a buddy. I've done every story quest in game at least once and I too have been frustrated with the writing direction in recent years. My friend hasn't done a good portion of the quests in game and we started in Khenarthi's Roost and it finally hit me why I'm frustrated with newer quests versus older ones.

Even in a base game tutorial zone, there are moral questions and dilemmas, but instead of a right or wrong framing, they ask your character what they value as a person or what their moral compass is. If you have to sacrifice someone, would you sacrifice someone old but wise or someone young but full of potential? Where is your line between vengeance, justice, and mercy? Are you willing to lie to protect the peace or are you willing to expose the truth knowing it will bring about consequences on innocent people? Do you stop a problem now even if it's hard or do you kick the can down the line to future generations to deal with? While some of these quests did have negative outcomes compared to the other option, many of them also were portrayed in a way that felt fair and less "you did the wrong thing and it was a choice quest but there was a right and wrong choice and you chose the one we as writers felt was wrong/bad so you will be shamed for it." I even recall some of the post-quest dialogue had npcs react both positively and negatively to your choices in ambient chatter (ex the Phaer quest has "I heard you let that woman at Phaer have real justice. Auri-El would approve."/"You let that woman murder that doctor in Phaer! Shame on you!" both being dialogue if you choose the vengeance option).

I just kinda miss the quests that made me genuinely pause and think about what my characters would do and value and why. It feels like we get less of that lately and it makes me sad.

Syldras · March 12

Emeratis wrote: »

So funny enough this thread catches my attention when I decide to start questing with a buddy. I've done every story quest in game at least once and I too have been frustrated with the writing direction in recent years. My friend hasn't done a good portion of the quests in game and we started in Khenarthi's Roost and it finally hit me why I'm frustrated with newer quests versus older ones.
Even in a base game tutorial zone, there are moral questions and dilemmas, but instead of a right or wrong framing, they ask your character what they value as a person or what their moral compass is. If you have to sacrifice someone, would you sacrifice someone old but wise or someone young but full of potential? Where is your line between vengeance, justice, and mercy? Are you willing to lie to protect the peace or are you willing to expose the truth knowing it will bring about consequences on innocent people? Do you stop a problem now even if it's hard or do you kick the can down the line to future generations to deal with? While some of these quests did have negative outcomes compared to the other option, many of them also were portrayed in a way that felt fair and less "you did the wrong thing and it was a choice quest but there was a right and wrong choice and you chose the one we as writers felt was wrong/bad so you will be shamed for it." I even recall some of the post-quest dialogue had npcs react both positively and negatively to your choices in ambient chatter (ex the Phaer quest has "I heard you let that woman at Phaer have real justice. Auri-El would approve."/"You let that woman murder that doctor in Phaer! Shame on you!" both being dialogue if you choose the vengeance option).
I just kinda miss the quests that made me genuinely pause and think about what my characters would do and value and why. It feels like we get less of that lately and it makes me sad.

Yes, one thing that became increasingly obvious, especially in Solstice, is that we get "moral lessons" - about real world morals, of course. We barely get shown different opinions and different moral views - especially lore-based on Tamriel's different cultures (which would be the interesting thing, and for me one of the main appeals of playing a fantasy game - I want to explore a different world and their different cultures that are not doing, thinking and believing the same as 21st century real world humans) - anymore, so we can make an make an open decision about what we (or our character) think is the right thing to do - or in situations where there is no perfect solution, at least the choice that feels less horrible to us.

Though they also seem to avoid such tragic situations altogether now. Which is another reason why everything feels rather trivial: They don't allow the player to really have any strong feelings anymore, or at least nothing that might be perceived as "negative". There's barely anything tragic now, while such situations were very common in the base game and the first few chapters; there have barely been any meaningful character deaths in the later chapters (and if someone died, they were miraculously brought back anyway - like Gadayn in the Necrom/Gold Road year, or even the whole citizenry of Markarth...) - and yes, I'm aware of the two deaths in the Solstice year, but the years before, it was really always the same scheme, with people suddenly resurrecting again, or deaths of very minor side characters we never could build up any relationship with anyway (like Count Monard, the father of knight Stefan in Galen).

Honestly, it really feels like no "negative" or "uncomfortable" feelings are allowed. Characters mourn a death - you say one line to them and they're fine again. "Oh no, we need to hurry, this ritual could kill everyone on this island!" - still enough time for random flirting. And in every at least semi-dark situation that still occurs, some npc is making some stupid quip/joke/pun, completely destroying the atmosphere.

I think you might also find this thread interesting, in case you haven't seen it yet, because it discusses similiar things:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688681/edited-to-be-heart-039-s-week-quests-and-writing-concerns

*SPOILERS* Eastern Solstice quest Dismantling the Worm choices

SPOILERS Eastern Solstice quest Dismantling the Worm choices