Subclassing has ruined a lot of core concepts in ESO; class identity, the pro/con analysis of choosing a class and selecting skills, diversity of armor sets, and possibly the worst, players believing inflated DPS numbers are a substitute for mechanics in PVE or basic combat skills in PVP. Subclassing has had a predictably larger impact in PVP, where even slight advantages are used, abused, exploited, etc.

With that said, its not going away. The only way to combat subclassing is to give a buff to pure class builds to make them competitive with subclass builds. Or make subclass skills less effective. I would prefer to make pure class builds stronger than subclass builds, but they should be at least even with subclass builds.

But alas, given my experience with this game, that will not happen, as the usual response is to come in with the nerf hammer and dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator. That belief is only reinforced after reading the article introducing proposed changes. There is no way they are going to make Ardent Flame stronger. If anything, the procession towards cosmetics over actual differences marches on.

The best idea I've heard so far is to give small weapon/spell damage buff for using two organic class skills and a slightly larger buff if using all three.

I say this from the perspective of quite enjoying subclassing and being leery of having subclassing weakened. I don't mind making pure classing more competitive but not to the point of making me feel penalized for using subclassing. And keeping things simple is important, I think.

El_Borracho wrote: »

Subclassing has ruined a lot of core concepts in ESO; class identity, the pro/con analysis of choosing a class and selecting skills, diversity of armor sets, and possibly the worst, players believing inflated DPS numbers are a substitute for mechanics in PVE or basic combat skills in PVP. Subclassing has had a predictably larger impact in PVP, where even slight advantages are used, abused, exploited, etc.

With that said, its not going away. The only way to combat subclassing is to give a buff to pure class builds to make them competitive with subclass builds. Or make subclass skills less effective. I would prefer to make pure class builds stronger than subclass builds, but they should be at least even with subclass builds.

But alas, given my experience with this game, that will not happen, as the usual response is to come in with the nerf hammer and dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator. That belief is only reinforced after reading the article introducing proposed changes. There is no way they are going to make Ardent Flame stronger. If anything, the procession towards cosmetics over actual differences marches on.

Class lines have always been horribly set up. even from the start. They always have you choose your class from game start, which honestly is the WORST time to make such a choice. Locking in your characters core skills before you even learn how the game plays or feels without the option of going back unless you start a new character has always been a wastefull thing to do.

It honestly should be much later in gameplay were you lock down your class and skills.

As much as i like ESO's classes... there are ALL a mess. If it were up to me. i would just get rid of them entirely. But i understand why people object to it, and want what we have had for 10 years to persist and be viable again.

but i will agree that IF classes are going to continue to be a thing. that they should be on par with sublcassing. but the ONLY way to do that i feel is to give pure classes certian small but meaningful bonuses for remaining In class.

Okay. So if you’re playing a Dragonknight, and swap out Earthen Heart for Winter’s Embrace, you should be inherently weaker than a traditional DK?

Yeah that’s a hard pass from me.

@wolfie1.0. I could not agree with this more:

Class lines have always been horribly set up. even from the start. They always have you choose your class from game start, which honestly is the WORST time to make such a choice. Locking in your characters core skills before you even learn how the game plays or feels without the option of going back unless you start a new character has always been a wastefull thing to do.

I suppose the workaround is the amount of characters you can build and the fairly easy route to leveling them up. But you are correct. I came into this game believing my DK would be a beast (Morrowind). It was not a PVE DD beast, but a great tank and strong PVP DD. Eventually the world turned and the DK became a beast. In the meantime, I enjoyed learning how to play as a NB and Templar. But this was all back when classes, armor, and mag vs stam were real considerations.

I fear that eliminating classes would turn the game into ESO Skyrim, which is not what I want. Which, in looking at the direction of subclassing and reworking classes, appears to be the direction the devs are heading.

I'm not saying strict classes will solve everything, but it was nice to need a variation of builds to run a raid. You could never just stack 8 Templars, Sorcs, or NBs out there as DDs and clear everything. Fast forward to the Arcanist, and you'd be hard pressed to find a raid without 8 Arcanist DDs. Today, its just all a variation of CLASS + ASSASINATION + HERALD wearing Null Acra.

The most "diverse" DD I have is a stamsorc base that uses that setup with the big variation being Hurricane and Flail instead of Jabs. Ooh, so outrageous. Its got to the point that in most DD raid builds, there are really only 2-3 skills that aren't universal. That's closer to Skyrim than ESO