Now is the time to make necro pets permanent

BewareTheSea · December 15

With the plan to tackle class identity and pure class reworks in the near future, it is the right chance to look at necro and do what makes them unique which is give them permanent pets. It is simply not right that warden gets a bear meanwhile, necromancer which arguably fits more in line with summoning only gets temporary pets.

Wereswan · December 15

Summoning cheap, disposable pets fits with the way we usually see necromancy used by antagonists, though. The exceptions tend to be things like Flesh Atronachs and Bone Golems that are implied to take substantially more resources to create.

robwolf666 · December 15

Sorcs have the summonable pets, not Necro's - Nec's get the Skeletal Mage and Healer Spirit (forget what it's actually called even though I use it, lol).

Or maybe I missed the point and you mean Nec's should have pets?

alakeyfox · December 15

Not if it's going to remain a double bar deal, thank you.

couriersix · December 15

Necro's don't need permanent pets, in fact I think it would even be detrimental to the class for a number of reasons including the fact that necro skill summons are illegal in towns so it would be incredibly annoying to dismiss and resummon whenever entering a town. I do think necro pets should be looked at, especially in terms of their buffs, pathing, etc but making them permanent is not the way to go.

Feljax · December 15

Gotta agree with the OP here. I personally despise the temporary nature of necro pets. They're basically another "buff" to manage which I don't find fun at all. I may be in the minority here but I also hate the collosus ultimate (it's especially annoying in cyrodiil right now but that's another issue altogether).

What I'd love to see is a big bone golem as a permanent pet at the very least. Heck, I'd be happy if they just reused the current three headed bone golem model. I prefer skeletal minions myself but maybe make a morph that is a flesh golem (again the model already exists) for variety. Physical damage for the bone golem, disease for the flesh golem. Just my two cents.

emilyhyoyeon · December 15

I'd honestly like to see sorcerer pets become un-permanent pets lol, which kind of gives me the idea of reworking conjured familiar skills to be only permanent when double-barred.

Vaqual · December 15

It probably wont work with the current limitations, but I'd rather see the option to create more pets. Maybe something like "you can have up to three instances of pet x active", where that would correspond to some weaker version of a morph.

Joe_90 · December 15

It's bad enough with bears, fairies, scamps, companions and cosmetic pets without adding more into the mix. You won't be able to move in cities soon!

Mesite · December 15

There are lots of crazy ideas on the forum but I like this one.

Radiate77 · December 15

Yup, as long as you don’t need to double bar them.

LootAllTheStuff · December 15

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I'd honestly like to see sorcerer pets become un-permanent pets lol, which kind of gives me the idea of reworking conjured familiar skills to be only permanent when double-barred.

I suspect most of the people I see in cities with a Flappy or Clammy (or both

) in tow already have them double-barred, so I'm not sure how this would help?

Alaztor91 · December 15

I don't mind having a morph as a permanent pet option for stuff like mage/mender/etc.

Changing the entire skill means losing bar space, would be incredibly annoying in towns due to the ''Criminal Act'' property and probably wouldn't work well with the whole Corpse system. No thanks.

Anumaril · December 15

I'd rather have permanent pets over what we have now, but honestly I agree with @Wereswan that cheap, disposable pets fits the fantasy more.

Sure, in reality Elder Scrolls necromancers (even novice ones) are more than capable of summoning permanent undead minions, but to keep gameplay in mind the idea of many disposable minions with relatively low timers (e.g., 30s each) works better. Think of it as leaning into the idea of corpses 'decaying' as opposed to daedric creatures which are literally just alive.

Soarora · December 15

Here’s an even more out-there idea based on this:
A third bar entirely for summons. Not permanent pets but long duration (long enough to summon pets in trash pulls then have them live for boss fights). Stronger pets require more corpses to cast. Problem would be people progging dungeon/trials where their pets would run out but the spots where they were in necro’s kit can be replaced with corpse summoning abilities.

AScarlato · December 15

Not that many people really care that much about the setting, but since summoning undead is typically a criminal act I'd hate to see these all over town.

I know we already have a lot of lore-breaking cosmetics but why add more?

Also I think it makes sense that the pets would be temporary, either brittle skeletons or ghosts that won't permanently follow you around.

If anything I think the daedric pets should be temporary also.

whitecrow · December 15

Only real life pets should be permanent.

emilyhyoyeon · December 15

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I'd honestly like to see sorcerer pets become un-permanent pets lol, which kind of gives me the idea of reworking conjured familiar skills to be only permanent when double-barred.

I suspect most of the people I see in cities with a Flappy or Clammy (or both ) in tow already have them double-barred, so I'm not sure how this would help?

Help what? I'd just like it reworked like this so that I can run pets on sorcerer for the DPS while not losing out on other skill slots and while also getting the luxury of them automatically visually dropping off after 20sec

Ratzkifal · December 15

I prefer the fire and forget Necromancer playstyle, and it is more in line with how Necromancy works in the lore.
That said, Necro tanks could probably do with better corpse generation that doesn't rely on scribing. The newly reworked bone armor is a good first step, but why not change Grave Grasp and/or Bone Totem to a summon with the same or similar functionality? Tank Necromancers don't quite feel like Necromancers/DeathKnights yet.

Also I think the tethers are clunky and we can probably do something more interesting for at least one of them.

LootAllTheStuff · December 15

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I'd honestly like to see sorcerer pets become un-permanent pets lol, which kind of gives me the idea of reworking conjured familiar skills to be only permanent when double-barred.

I suspect most of the people I see in cities with a Flappy or Clammy (or both ) in tow already have them double-barred, so I'm not sure how this would help?

Help what? I'd just like it reworked like this so that I can run pets on sorcerer for the DPS while not losing out on other skill slots and while also getting the luxury of them automatically visually dropping off after 20sec

Oh, I see what you were trying to say now. Are you proposing that they'd still be present just invisible after 20 s, or that they would be automatically dismissed after 20 s? (Presumably 20s out of combat rather than a flat 20 s?).

Orbital78 · December 15

Rather than a great bear, a big flesh atro tanky boy? Ulti a disease smash leaving dot puddle.

Hapexamendios · December 15

Yeah, go for it. I think it would be funny to see the guards pouncing on a necromancer the second the landed in a city.

Orbital78 · December 16

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Yeah, go for it. I think it would be funny to see the guards pouncing on a necromancer the second the landed in a city.

true, imo they shouldn't be more criminal acts than daedric summons or role playing as a bard in crowded town hubs.

emilyhyoyeon · December 16

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I'd honestly like to see sorcerer pets become un-permanent pets lol, which kind of gives me the idea of reworking conjured familiar skills to be only permanent when double-barred.

I suspect most of the people I see in cities with a Flappy or Clammy (or both ) in tow already have them double-barred, so I'm not sure how this would help?

Help what? I'd just like it reworked like this so that I can run pets on sorcerer for the DPS while not losing out on other skill slots and while also getting the luxury of them automatically visually dropping off after 20sec

Oh, I see what you were trying to say now. Are you proposing that they'd still be present just invisible after 20 s, or that they would be automatically dismissed after 20 s? (Presumably 20s out of combat rather than a flat 20 s?).

I'd like the option for non-permanent, single-bar sorcerer pets, like how the necromancer pets are

BXR_Lonestar · December 16

This is what I would like to see happen with the Necro:

Reduce emphasis of having a corpse available to do max damage. This opens up the pathway for necros to have permanent pets. Part of the reason their pets expire is to feed the corpse mechanic. Change the corpse mechanic so you can consume the corpses after a battle to recharge (or overcharge) your resource reserves.

In PVP, consuming the corpse should eliminate the ability for that player to be revived, and they are instantly sent back to wayshrine. This would eliminate a lot of the hide-and-seek games that waste so much time in Cyrodil and are just not engaging or fun.

By having it be a sustain mechanic rather than a damage mechanic, you can then have the option to have permanent pets.

I personally would like to also see the pets changed to a Archer/Mage, a bone colossus/flesh atronarch, and and the specter.

MincMincMinc · December 16

BewareTheSea wrote: »

With the plan to tackle class identity and pure class reworks in the near future, it is the right chance to look at necro and do what makes them unique which is give them permanent pets. It is simply not right that warden gets a bear meanwhile, necromancer which arguably fits more in line with summoning only gets temporary pets.

The problem is the game performance cant handle more pets, which is why zos is trying to move away from the corpse system and thin it out.

I was honestly surprised they kept it through development with the release of necro.

katanagirl1 · December 16

MincMincMinc wrote: »

BewareTheSea wrote: »

With the plan to tackle class identity and pure class reworks in the near future, it is the right chance to look at necro and do what makes them unique which is give them permanent pets. It is simply not right that warden gets a bear meanwhile, necromancer which arguably fits more in line with summoning only gets temporary pets.

The problem is the game performance cant handle more pets, which is why zos is trying to move away from the corpse system and thin it out.

I was honestly surprised they kept it through development with the release of necro.

If this is true, then why aren’t permanent pets being re-examined? There are so many of them, some players run all three. They have them up 100% of the time, with few exceptions.

Is it because a change to make them non-permanent might hurt some player’s feelings? Well, there have been plenty of changes forced down our throats and they weren’t all cited as performance reasons.

As long as you are not in PvP, having to summon your pets for combat might be inconvenient but it is certainly not game-breaking or will cause player deaths. (Yes I know about the story quest in DC). In PvE you always have plenty of time to do so. Even in PvP you would become accustomed to keeping the pets up if needed, just like necro does.

I really scratch my head when thinking about the things they could do to improve performance that would be much easier than a full Vengeance campaign, but don’t do. If sorc and warden pets create such a problem then it should be addressed, at the very least to spread out the pain amongst all classes/builds.

EDIT: typo

Wereswan · December 17

Anumaril wrote: »

I'd rather have permanent pets over what we have now, but honestly I agree with @Wereswan that cheap, disposable pets fits the fantasy more.

Sure, in reality Elder Scrolls necromancers (even novice ones) are more than capable of summoning permanent undead minions, but to keep gameplay in mind the idea of many disposable minions with relatively low timers (e.g., 30s each) works better. Think of it as leaning into the idea of corpses 'decaying' as opposed to daedric creatures which are literally just alive.

The other question here would be that if we ignore all that, how would we differentiate Necromancer from the other summoners? Sorceror has "summon 1-2 relatively flimsy pets at the cost of 2-4 skill slots" and Warden has "summon one strong pet at the cost of both ult slots." There isn't really a third variant possible.

YandereGirlfriend · December 17

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I'd honestly like to see sorcerer pets become un-permanent pets lol, which kind of gives me the idea of reworking conjured familiar skills to be only permanent when double-barred.

This is a really good idea! Let the players decide how they want to use them would be the ideal choice!

Hotdog_23 · December 17

Another thought would be to make sorc pets like necros. Get rid of the two-bar requirement and no permanent pets for anyone. Including Warden's bear.

Stay safe and Happy Holidays

The_Isatope8 · December 18

I recently had an interesting idea in regards to necro and their summons that somewhat coincides with the concept of permanent necro summons. Basically it revolves around timed necro summons (Skeletal Mage and Spirit Mender) having an added function that they can be summoned permanently while slotted on both bars and essentially become bound to the players service. While bound in this way, the summons have access to new abilities like the skeletal mage casting a fireball with a DOT effect when the ability is activated, or the spirit mender doing an instant heal on the caster when activated.

Here are some examples:

Skeletal Mage

Skeletal Mage
Unearth a skeletal mage from the dirt to fight by your side for 20 seconds, while granting you Major Brutality and Sorcery, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20%. The mage attacks the closest enemy every 2 seconds, dealing 462 Shock Damage. Creates a corpse on death if you are in combat.

While slotted on both bars, you bind the mage to your service, summoning it permanently. While bound, activating this ability causes the mage to blast enemies with a fireball, dealing 1799 Flame damage to all enemies in a 6 meter radius and an additional 2980 Flame damage to them over 20 seconds. You can cast a corpse consuming ability on a bound skeletal mage up to once every 10 seconds if there are no other corpses nearby.

Morphs

Skeletal Arcanist
Skeletal Archer
Unearth a skeletal archer from the dirt to fight by your side for 20 seconds, while granting you Major Brutality and Sorcery, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20%. The archer attacks the closest enemy every 2 seconds, dealing 463 Physical Damage. Each time the archer deals damage, it deals 15% more damage than the previous attack. Creates a corpse on death if you are in combat.

While slotted on both bars, you bind the archer to your service, summoning it permanently. While bound, activating this ability causes the archer to fire a volley of putrid arrows, dealing 1799 Disease damage to all enemies in a 6 meter radius and an additional 2980 Disease damage to them over 20 seconds. You can cast a corpse consuming ability on a bound skeletal archer up to once every 10 seconds if there are no other corpses nearby.

Spirit Mender

Spirit Mender
Conjure a ghostly spirit to do your bidding and stay by your side for 16 seconds. The spirit heals you or the lowest Health ally around you every 2 seconds, restoring 695 Health. Creates a corpse on death if you are in combat.

While slotted on both bars, you bind the ghostly spirit to your service, summoning it permanently. While bound, activating this ability causes the spirit to heal you and nearby allies for 2700 Health. You can cast a corpse consuming ability on a bound spirit mender up to once every 10 seconds if there are no other corpses nearby.

Morphs

Intensive Mender
Conjure a ghostly spirit to do your bidding and stay by your side for 8 seconds. The spirit heals you or the lowest Health ally around you every 2 seconds, restoring 1438 Health to the target and 2 allies nearby them. Creates a corpse on death if you are in combat.

While slotted on both bars, you bind the ghostly spirit to your service, summoning it permanently. While bound, activating this ability causes the spirit to heal you and nearby allies for 2700 Health. You can cast a corpse consuming ability on a bound spirit mender up to once every 10 seconds if there are no other corpses nearby.

*Even though the cost of the ability is halved, the cost of activating the burst heal while the spirit is bound should remain the same
Spirit Guardian
Conjure a ghostly spirit to do your bidding and stay by your side for 16 seconds. The spirit heals you or the lowest Health ally around you every 2 seconds, restoring 718 Health. While active 10% of the damage you take is transferred to the spirit instead. Creates a corpse on death if you are in combat.

While slotted on both bars, you bind the ghostly spirit to your service, summoning it permanently. While bound, activating this ability causes the spirit to heal you and nearby allies for 2700 Health. You can cast a corpse consuming ability on a bound spirit mender up to once every 10 seconds if there are no other corpses nearby.

Another idea I had is to make Necro feel more like a proper horde summoner is to give them the ability to have multiple small minions as temporary summons. The idea is that some of their aoe skills (Grave Grasp, Boneyard and Life Amid Death) can summon up to 4 skeletal minions similar to the Undead Avatar Lich transformation verse in the infinite archive. These minions would deal a little bit of damage as they defend your character and could potentially be used for corpse consuming abilities if there are no other corpses nearby to essentially bring the corpses with you. There would naturally be a limit on how many minions a player could have active at a time, I think that 4 should be fair. The way such skills can be reworked to allow the summoning of minions are as follows:

Grave Grasp

Grave Grasp
Summon skeletal claws of the dead from the ground in front of you, dealing 898 Frost Damage and applying Minor Maim for 12 seconds, reducing damage done by 5%. Enemies in the area are immobilized for 4 seconds before having their movement speed reduced by 30% for 5 seconds. If at least one enemy is hit you summon up to 4 skeletal minions for 20 seconds after 2 seconds, creating a horde. Skeletal minions defend you, attacking the nearest target every 2 seconds.

*This skill is really clunky to use due to it creating several zones that each have their own distance from the player and produce their own effects. This version of the skill simply creates a single zone that applies all of its effects gradually instead of having the player aim and space themselves for the desired effect. The reason why the minions are only summoned if an enemy is hit is so that the animation can feature skeletal minions essentially dragging themselves out of the dirt using the enemies hit as an anchor point; which I think is cool and adds to Necro's flavor

Boneyard

Boneyard
Call forth the restless dead at the target location, dealing 3080 Frost Damage over 10 seconds to enemies inside the area and applying Minor Vulnerability, increasing their damage taken by 5%. After 2 seconds, you summon up to 4 skeletal minions for 20 seconds, creating a horde. Skeletal minions defend you, attacking the nearest target every 2 seconds. Consumes a corpse on cast to deal 30% more damage and an ally in the area can activate the Grave Robber synergy, dealing 2249 Frost Damage to enemies and healing for the damage done.

Life Amid Death

Life Amid Death
Release residual fragments of fallen souls at the target location, healing you and your allies for 2323 Health and summoning up to 4 skeletal minions for 20 seconds after 2 seconds, creating a horde. Skeletal minions defend you, attacking the nearest target every 2 seconds. Consumes a corpse on cast to continue healing you and allies in the area for an additional 2310 Health over 5 seconds.

I think that changes such as these could be really interesting for Necro to play around with, while adding to the class fantasy and making their corpse mechanic a little less frustrating to manage.