MincMincMinc wrote: »

Your explanation isn't clear.

You complained about how its annoying to cast between every skill.....but then your solution is that it should cost resources to cast. How does costing resources alleviate the annoyance of casting between each skill? Now its just annoying and costs resources which is annoying. Basically punish the good players that practice and take part in a mechanic while rewarding the lazy players who don't learn the mechanic.

Theory craft wise it opens two doors with the dangerous balance of patch to patch you may never need to light attack again
-light attack and build sustain to support it. trading off wd usually for regen.
-don't light attack and build wd then only casting skills 90% of the time. The added WD saved may scale your skills far more than the light attack resource drain is ever worth.

By costing resources it would no longer be viable to use them between each skill ALL THE TIME, because you would drain yourself out quickly - I can't say what the cost/damage quoficient should be exactly for this to feel good, it has to be tested. You also would no longer be able to gain resources from heavy attacks, having to relay on skills for sustain instead. Meaning light and heavy attacks would be tactical in how much you use them when you have resources to spare, not using them at all when you are low on them preferably. Those who mastered weaving would still have a faster burst in this scenario, provided they saved up as described, but besides burst potential you can light attack as you wish (more or less) with the main goal being not draining yourself out with it instead of perfecting the auto attack after each skill (maybe you can have a weakened auto attack when you don't have enough resources for the normal one). Hope that clarifies it a bit.
This would also make only certain skills relevant for animation canceling, since there would be an ideal point to use the LAs during a rotation, with the possibility to add a few more LAs at the risk of running dry, meaning people wouldn't need to learn how to perform the animation canceling on every single bar skill, but only with their attack skills (although learning how to do it with the other's would still have usage by default since it gives you versatility both in pve and pvp). Essentially making light attacks part of combos.

Regarding theory crafting:
-If they build something that sustains constant auto attacks, their skill damage will be lacking so all good, that's a fair trade off, in this scenario such builds would need to be completly sustain focused (if at all possible).
-If they just use skills they miss on the extra auto attack burst that comes from animation canceling and auto attacks between skills (you just wouldn't be able to do it constantly, because let's say after 3 skills and 2 auto attacks between them, the next auto attack would put most builds dry on resources, so you would go for a skill and no auto attack at all).
I did say that auto attacks would need to get the damage increased, for this to make sense, not using light attacks at all is even more unrealistic in this scenario, it's the animation canceling that will mainly loose on importance although it will still be relevant for when the player wishes to burst.

Mastery is still respected in this scenario, even animation canceling (just making it less active on all fronts), you just wouldn't mechanically use an auto attack after each skill every single time, which is just tedious and unengaging to instead consider when it's the right time to start and stop incorporating them on your attacks based on your resources.

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

If you believe that this would remove weaving, it won't.

And it will hit HA builds in a collateral.

No, I did not state this would completly remove weaving, it would remove the demand and to some degree capacity to weave after every skill all the time.
It would affect HA builds, but how is impossible to know without testing and if anything it would make them more viable depending on the damage buff they would receive + empower (it should be big since they no longer work for sustain, turning the HA into a telegraphed hit for big damage)

There are so many more important factors which play into your damage than light attacks. When using velothi your light attacks are there only to proc the passive ult gain and some sets, but even without velothi your light attacks are far from the biggest factor when it comes to dealing damage. Your rotation and the time between your skills is where the vast majority of your damage is, not in the extra light attack you can squeeze in there. In actual content there are even more factors, such as important buffs/debuffs like crit damage and penetration, aoe placement, mechanics, even more skill priority and rotation (not casting dots if the boss is going to be immune before the dot runs out etc.)

Light attacks are not the reason people struggle with damage in this game no matter how many threads there are on the forums about it. Optimal LA weaving is there only if you want to challenge yourself a bit more for a slight performance boost.

dwolfgheist wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

There are so many more important factors which play into your damage than light attacks. When using velothi your light attacks are there only to proc the passive ult gain and some sets, but even without velothi your light attacks are far from the biggest factor when it comes to dealing damage. Your rotation and the time between your skills is where the vast majority of your damage is, not in the extra light attack you can squeeze in there. In actual content there are even more factors, such as important buffs/debuffs like crit damage and penetration, aoe placement, mechanics, even more skill priority and rotation (not casting dots if the boss is going to be immune before the dot runs out etc.)

Light attacks are not the reason people struggle with damage in this game no matter how many threads there are on the forums about it. Optimal LA weaving is there only if you want to challenge yourself a bit more for a slight performance boost.

Auto attacks are around 20-30% of a players DPS when they weave, because there are no drawbacks to it. It's always good to squeeze in the auto attack between skills for extra damage, this would give nuance to it, so that the auto attack is not a mechanical thing to do after each skill to be optimal and instead be a thought action in which you take your resources and moment in the rotation into account.
I would recommend you to kill a mob with 200k life with and without incorporating weaving, and you'll realize that you have to do it as a DD to meat minimum expectations. Granted if you have a good rotation and damage sets to do damage your lack of weaving may not get in the way of certain content, but that is not the issue here, no matter the build, it's always better to do weaving with how the current LAs work. And in PVP you just gotta weave to even stand a chance, it's not even a discussion (sure you can go balrogh and kill a guy in a random BG everytime you got ulti, but I think you understand what I mean here).

Sure, here is a test I did on a 300k vampire dummy, because I couldn't find a 200k enemy overland and it made the testing way easier.

Pictures are in the spoiler to save space
In such a short fight there are so many variables (mainly crit luck). The thing is, even on longer fight light attacks don't matter nearly as much, because Velothi Ur-Mage amulet exists and it happens to be the best mythic for PvE content. It removes 99% of your light attack damage but gives 15% damage done to monsters and some penetration and minor force on top of it.

If you don't have velothi and you don't light attack, yes you will be dealing less damage, but again, there are much bigger factors than light attacking. If you really want to optimize, just use velothi and attack only for ult regen and you wont see a damage loss at all. (except when using merciless resolve)

dwolfgheist wrote: »

But you see now, why it makes sense to always light attack in the current system, right? You also gain ultimate from LAs just to reinforce this further. Currently you either do that or go Velothi, but it works only for monsters, so useless in pvp. 15 % is not enough either (but fair in the current landscape), consider your kill 3 as the norm when you weave, the 7%/10% LA dmg as stat is deceiving, you don't even see my LAs in melee and I am not in the upper levels of animation canceling, the percentage does not account for the time gained through animation canceling. Yes, there is a global cooldown, but if you let your auto attacks and skills do the full animation you loose over a second in each, they are only "instant" in name, this stacks fast ex: in 7 seconds, with animation canceling you take exactly 7 seconds to perform 7 skills and 7 auto attacks, if you just auto attack after the skill you will maybe fire 5 skills and 5-6 auto attacks in the same 7 seconds, that difference is a lot.

The only thing you gain by LA cancelling is the LA itself. Skill animations cannot be cancelled (With the exception of channelled abilities, but then you also cancel the damage), skills cancel the animation for light attacks, which is why you can always weave one in before, not after a skill.

Yes, of course it makes sense to always weave in some extra damage if you can, but that isn't where the majority, or even a big chunk of your damage should come from in the first place. The scenario we are talking about here is 1. the person does not have the best meta mythic in the game which solves the problem for them 2. we are fighting a purely single target fight, because the more enemies you fight the less light attacks matter.
If it were up to me, light attacks would play a bigger role in dealing damage because higher effort should come with a higher reward, but that's just not the case in today's ESO.

dwolfgheist wrote: »

Velothi is the best PVE mythic for those who don't know how to weave, there are better options out there for those who do, it just levels the ground a bit, it's existence, wide adoption and you considering it good further advocate my point, on how people do not want to light attack all the time to clear tougher content, however that's precisely what the system rewards you to not only do properly, but in a perfectly mechanic way at that to get the most out of almost any existing build.

Nope, in the latest world record (Ossein Cage) the non beamers are using Velothi in every single fight.

dwolfgheist wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

If you believe that this would remove weaving, it won't.

And it will hit HA builds in a collateral.

No, I did not state this would completly remove weaving, it would remove the demand and to some degree capacity to weave after every skill all the time.

Velothi removed the demand for perfect weaving already.

As for the sustain being a limiting factor, we've had good few years of meta with sustain sets on supports and DDs on parse food.

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Velothi removed the demand for perfect weaving already.

As for the sustain being a limiting factor, we've had good few years of meta with sustain sets on supports and DDs on parse food.

Ask yourself, do you think adding a set is a good solution for an issue with a core mechanic of the game? If Velothi is overperforming as mentioned, it just reinforces this being an issue, since any other build demands constant LAs to come close to Velothi. And more importantly, Velothi does absolutely nothing in pvp.