The trading system in my view is without doubt the worst aspect of the game, and by and large the only players who lobby against any attempt to get it changed are those with billions of gold in the bank from it.

Furyous wrote: »

Other MMOs solved this years ago:

• In World of Warcraft, you walk up to the auction house NPC and instantly see every item listed across the server.
• In Final Fantasy XIV, the market board works the same way: one interface, all goods.
• Even older titles like EverQuest II or Star Wars: The Old Republic let you search globally and buy directly.
• And the original EverQuest, now over a quarter of a century old, has a universal in‑game search and all traders in one area.

The difference is you can be part of 5 guilds in ESO. In WoW, FFXIV, and SW you are limited to 1, and 2 for EQ2.

I suspect the original intent was that most trading would happen inter-guild and NPC traders were basically just flavour.

Obviously player actions have altered things, and worsened a broken system (the amount of the bids).

Moved PS to original post

As someone that has run many trade guilds, and still partakes in the trading system in a very casual manner, I absolutely love the system.

If I want something specific, I either farm it myself, or use the third party sites to help locate it.
If I just want to look around for deals, I visit each kiosk and browse to my liking.

There are many, many trade guilds without dues, even in the most popular locations, and with the third party sites, location has a limited meaning to it outside of just foot traffic sales.

This game has one of my favorite trading systems, as you can use it in so many ways. I wouldn't bother trading at all if this were done through a central auction house, it would just take the dynamics out of it for me.

Munkfist wrote: »

As someone that has run many trade guilds, and still partakes in the trading system in a very casual manner, I absolutely love the system.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the 1% top billionaires also love neo-liberalism too.
But here we're talking about a failing system that is forced to console players - that is, not you, obviously - who have to travel all around Tamriel everytime they need anything. Them, and PC players who don't use third party system.
Also, the tremendous amounts of gold needed so trading guilds can be visible in the first place.

Munkfist wrote: »

If I want something specific, I either farm it myself, or use the third party sites to help locate it.
and with the third party sites, location has a limited meaning to it outside of just foot traffic sales.

How would you like it without those sites though? Sounds like they are important to making ESOs system work for you.


I think there are ways the game could add the discoverability of those sites to complement the current trading system

My idea would be to keep the current aystem as is, but add:
1) An NPC that lists locations for any items you ask it for with no prices
2) After being unsold for a week, items get crosslisted in an auction house type trader.

This keeps the current value of guild traders, while allowing discoverability of rare items, and allowing the easy buying benefits of an auction house system without the cheap deal benefits that can cause market manipulation in an auction house system. The current trader system keeps the guild trader bidding and location value without shutting people out completely. It adds a dimension of effort vs money where currently that only kind of exists for mats.

I would also add
3. Allow people to list a small number of items in the auction house system directly, for those who don't have access to a guild trader. If the amount that can be sold is restricted this keeps people from using it for flipping while allowing a broader economy. Could also restrict it by gold amount instead so people can sell 100 green recipes but not 10k dreugh wax, or some combination of the two.

My point was this:

Furyous wrote: »

It doesn’t take the grind out of running from zone to zone only to find the item you wanted is already sold out. It doesn’t make blind bidding any clearer or less punishing.

Wasn't the intent. So it isn't simply the design that needs to be changed, but the intent behind it too. If ZOS re-designed the system but kept the same intent, eventually the same problems will re-emerge.

My issue with the system is the bid mechanics. Guilds keep trying to outbid each other, which then falls on players to sell more, which then turns it into a job.

The kiosk system isn't something that I'd want to see go. It adds a sense of realism. After all the internet and mass comms don't exist in Tamriel.

You've made your opinion very clear, Furyous, that doens't make other people's opinions selective logic or less important - just because they like a part of the game or dont see the issue with part of the game, it is not inherently wrong because it is different to your opinion.

This is where “convenience” and “precedent from other games” conflicts with “precedent from the game we’re in.”

A lot of people say over and over “but but but a full auction house doesn’t mean that one player controls the market in game XYZ!” But that’s not ESO - it’s perfectly possible (and expected, from some) that they will sit on TTC and run to every other trader to buy all of the “Crafting Motif 69: Nice” pages in the world so that they can try to flip them for 10x the price. Having hundreds of guild traders makes that process harder because said player needs to run to each one in turn, which means it is not as easy for one player to control the market. Allowing a central location where they (or let’s face it - an addon) can buy every page within a second of listing one anywhere means we absolutely would end up with a few players who already have incredible capital just controlling the price of everything.

Changing the trading system to be like other games won’t mean that all other players will instantly change their mindset.

I do think there are improvements they could make: making TTC functionality native would be great (but the current game may not be able to handle that with memory/space restrictions, but ZOS could host something of the sort on their own companion website and not on a third-party site). I also think that a restrictive guildless trader (few slots and high fees) could allow players who refuse to join guilds to still sell things, but still follow ZOS’s goal of encouraging players to join guilds.

However, let’s not pretend that every guild requires fees. I had a social guild since I started that would get a trader about 75% of the time and charged no fees. They usually got an out-of-the-way trader and I could sell things for cheap. When I got more into the game, I got a proper trade guild in a central location and stuff sells way faster and for higher prices - my guild doesn’t charge a fee per se, but they do ask guild members to contribute by selling lots of high value items, buying from the trader, or buying raffle tickets (which is what I do).

From what I’ve seen, most of the people who complain about various Trade Guild Mafias are also the players who categorically refuse to join guilds for any reason, or those who have smaller guilds and want central locations without the work required to get there.

The current trading system is about the only major gold sink left in the game, considering we don’t get many gold houses. They directly keep the economy healthy by disallowing rampant inflation, which we already see is a problem because of how fast Dolgubon’s can make gold for people.

You are allowed to join a mid-tier trade guild and do as much or as little with them as you like. There’s no penalty for putting the guild chat on ignore (I have a special chat tab to ignore all guild chatter when I need to focus), and if they are asking for fees that you think are too high, you can find a trade guild that suits your needs. But as little as I know about trading in this game, I do know that leading a trade guild is a horribly thankless job, and I am so happy and thankful that the GM of my guild makes it a painless thing to be a member.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Adding realism to something unrealistic isn't selective logic. It's adding realism.

Global comms =/= Global mass comms.

I don't think you understand the phrase “selective logic.”

It means you are choosing where to apply your idea of “logic” while ignoring everything else that does not follow the same reasoning. In this case, you accept instant teleportation, instant mail, and global guild chat as fine, but then claim traders cannot use similar tools because of “realism.” That is exactly what selective logic is.

Furyous wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Adding realism to something unrealistic isn't selective logic. It's adding realism.

Global comms =/= Global mass comms.

I don't think you understand the phrase “selective logic.”

It means you are choosing where to apply your idea of “logic” while ignoring everything else that does not follow the same reasoning. In this case, you accept instant teleportation, instant mail, and global guild chat as fine, but then claim traders cannot use similar tools because of “realism.” That is exactly what selective logic is.

Yeah, the one appearing to have issues with words would be you. I said it added a sense of realism. I didn't say it made the whole thing realistic.

Edit: There's magic in the world, right? Ok, cool. I want to conjour up 10 trillion gold.

Furyous wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

The difference is you can be part of 5 guilds in ESO. In WoW, FFXIV, and SW you are limited to 1, and 2 for EQ2.

I suspect the original intent was that most trading would happen inter-guild and NPC traders were basically just flavour.

Obviously player actions have altered things, and worsened a broken system (the amount of the bids).

Being part of 5 guilds doesn’t solve the frustration points I raised.
It doesn’t take the grind out of running from zone to zone only to find the item you wanted is already sold out. It doesn’t make blind bidding any clearer or less punishing.

I find no benefit from the 5 guild allowance when it comes to the issues in my original post:

• Endless travel just to check kiosks.
• No way to know the items gone before you get there.
• Blind bids with no guidance.
• Reliance on third‑party sites and add‑ons.

Whether you’re in 1 guild or 5, the system is still tedious, confusing, and inaccessible. Multiple guild slots don’t fix the design flaws, they just spread the frustration across more groups.

i absolutely hate the trading system with a passion. i remember in my early days wasting 2 entire days trying to track down some motifs to get some master writs out of my inventory... never did find the motifs, even though they were listed on ttc. and it put a stop to any buying on my end. i just farmed anything i needed after that. for a few years, i enjoyed selling things, but that is gone now too. things sell for a mere fraction of what they used to and it took all the fun out of it.

ideally... your sales tax your guild makes would cover your bid. and this is how things worked in the beginning. but it doesn't anymore. if you want a trader, you are going to have to supplement your sales tax with donations. i would suggest joining a trade guild if you want to sell. there are plenty of decent guilds out there that keep traders and don't charge any fees or have any requirements other than logging into the game

Not only killing off a whole ecosystem of guilds - but the loss of probably the single biggest gold sink would have the potential to cause alot of turbulence on the economy, to keep balanced, tax on sales through a AH would have to be huge (guessing something in the region of 50% or possibly more) or income streams would have to be massively reduced but that would leave the big gold hoarders at a massive advantage.

Well, who knows. If we make a single auction house for the entire server, then all the merchants from all locations will disappear, or become pointless. Everyone will start crowding around a single banker, which ruins the visuals and the overall experience.

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Munkfist wrote: »

If I want something specific, I either farm it myself, or use the third party sites to help locate it.
and with the third party sites, location has a limited meaning to it outside of just foot traffic sales.

How would you like it without those sites though? Sounds like they are important to making ESOs system work for you.

I would still love the system, it's a convenience at best. It's an mmo game, the grind is real. If you don't want to travel to traders for the item you want, you could almost always farm it yourself. If that's not an option for you for whatever reason, then start traveling around.

Very rarely do I use the sites. The game is old, most of us that enjoy the system have built up stockpiles of whatever it may be that we need, including gold.

I understand the newer crowd wanting this to just be made easy for them, but part of the fun is running around.