Soarora wrote: »

Trials are almost always melee but I don’t understand the mat either. I thought it was for pvp and thus trial would mean something similar to “test”… but why put a training dummy in the middle then?

The mat is meant to have a double purpose. You can use it to duel, but it also has rings which match the common ranges of various abilities.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Trials are almost always melee

There is an over-abundance of anti-melee mechs/damage in trials, causing an already lower potential output compared to range to be even lower due to excess movement.

This is made even worse with a few mechs on some bosses that mean using a gap closer to get back into melee range quickly is death. Yaseyla and Rakkhat spring to mind.

Okay well… what I remember:
Hel Ra last boss -> melee is possible but can’t stack so not everyone can be melee
AA last boss -> everyone’s in melee range of boss, need some ranged dds
SO last boss -> melee or else the giant aoe won’t place right
MoL last boss -> melee, just don’t stand on the pad. Melee is 6 meters
HoF last boss -> melee regardless of strat
AS -> ranged unless you want to suffer
Cloudrest -> melee
Sunspire -> all melee except maybe nahvi portal
KA -> Either all melee or half melee half ranged depending on stacking strat
RG -> All melee
DSR -> All melee
SE -> Iffy. I think your problem is main tank not kiting fire bombs but first boss has adds all over, second boss I think the position strat is melee, last boss need ranged for the adds but melee for dealing with wrack
LC -> All melee unless you’re dropping the ball on last boss

Melee is hand to hand combat.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Okay well… what I remember:
Hel Ra last boss -> melee is possible but can’t stack so not everyone can be melee
AA last boss -> everyone’s in melee range of boss, need some ranged dds
SO last boss -> melee or else the giant aoe won’t place right
MoL last boss -> melee, just don’t stand on the pad. Melee is 6 meters
HoF last boss -> melee regardless of strat
AS -> ranged unless you want to suffer
Cloudrest -> melee
Sunspire -> all melee except maybe nahvi portal
KA -> Either all melee or half melee half ranged depending on stacking strat
RG -> All melee
DSR -> All melee
SE -> Iffy. I think your problem is main tank not kiting fire bombs but first boss has adds all over, second boss I think the position strat is melee, last boss need ranged for the adds but melee for dealing with wrack
LC -> All melee unless you’re dropping the ball on last boss

I won't even dignify responding to the inclusion of crag trials ...

MoL - so the nullification of a melee skill?
HoF - Range can deal with the adds much better
AS - Melee is a death sentence
Cloudrest - Creeepers and orbs?! Ranged, especially Arcs can take down 2 portal crystals at the same time
Sunspire - Every rule has an exception
KA - Standard strat is now outside melee range. Also trash packs are easier for ranged due to AoEs
RG - Oax ranged can deal with healer killing frogs. Bas ranged can stand back more and avoid curses
DSR - Twins ranged can deal with weapons without movement. Guardian ranged can stay back giving tanks more room to lay AoEs. And again, trash packs are easier for ranged due to AoEs
SE - Yas, firebomb placement still has a random element, archers are also handled more efficiently by ranged. Twe ranged can stay well away from the AoEs and avoid them without losing damage
LC - 1st boss ranged can maintain damage output on boss while dealing with adds. Shard again ranged don't have the same AoE to deal with as melee, meaning they output higher. Xoryn easiest strat is to have a 2 x 6 line on either side, with DDs being ranged. And again, trash packs are easier for ranged due to AoEs

Of the dozens of high-end DDs I know, I can only think of 1 who plays a melee DD in the hardest end-game content. He's a handsome devil to be sure, and puts a massive burden on himself by doing so, because as a melee DD there is significantly more AoEs and damage coming in, and a more severe dps loss when having to deal with them.

Question for you, are arcs beaming with dual wield daggers and a greatsword melee or range?

Gabriel_H wrote: »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Okay well… what I remember:
Hel Ra last boss -> melee is possible but can’t stack so not everyone can be melee
AA last boss -> everyone’s in melee range of boss, need some ranged dds
SO last boss -> melee or else the giant aoe won’t place right
MoL last boss -> melee, just don’t stand on the pad. Melee is 6 meters
HoF last boss -> melee regardless of strat
AS -> ranged unless you want to suffer
Cloudrest -> melee
Sunspire -> all melee except maybe nahvi portal
KA -> Either all melee or half melee half ranged depending on stacking strat
RG -> All melee
DSR -> All melee
SE -> Iffy. I think your problem is main tank not kiting fire bombs but first boss has adds all over, second boss I think the position strat is melee, last boss need ranged for the adds but melee for dealing with wrack
LC -> All melee unless you’re dropping the ball on last boss

I won't even dignify responding to the inclusion of crag trials ...

MoL - so the nullification of a melee skill?
HoF - Range can deal with the adds much better
AS - Melee is a death sentence
Cloudrest - Creeepers and orbs?! Ranged, especially Arcs can take down 2 portal crystals at the same time
Sunspire - Every rule has an exception
KA - Standard strat is now outside melee range. Also trash packs are easier for ranged due to AoEs
RG - Oax ranged can deal with healer killing frogs. Bas ranged can stand back more and avoid curses
DSR - Twins ranged can deal with weapons without movement. Guardian ranged can stay back giving tanks more room to lay AoEs. And again, trash packs are easier for ranged due to AoEs
SE - Yas, firebomb placement still has a random element, archers are also handled more efficiently by ranged. Twe ranged can stay well away from the AoEs and avoid them without losing damage
LC - 1st boss ranged can maintain damage output on boss while dealing with adds. Shard again ranged don't have the same AoE to deal with as melee, meaning they output higher. Xoryn easiest strat is to have a 2 x 6 line on either side, with DDs being ranged. And again, trash packs are easier for ranged due to AoEs

Of the dozens of high-end DDs I know, I can only think of 1 who plays a melee DD in the hardest end-game content. He's a handsome devil to be sure, and puts a massive burden on himself by doing so, because as a melee DD there is significantly more AoEs and damage coming in, and a more severe dps loss when having to deal with them.

Question for you, are arcs beaming with dual wield daggers and a greatsword melee or range?

When they are stood more than 7m away for most of the fight they are ranged. You get why they dual wield, right?

Yes for the passives and maybe blade cloak and also two enchants.
I just think you two not only have different perceptions of what positioning people use, but are also talking past each other so wanted to clarify. A lot of what you mention isn't really melee vs range it's aoe vs single target, and yes zos loves their aoe damage and has since even before arc.

I think there are 4 ways to interpret the viability of melee and range:
1. using range weapons and range spamables while standing at range most of the time
This one is just not the case, range weapons are worse, and their skills are largely also worse. Outside maybe vas this not meta anywhere.

2. melee weapons standing at range most of the time using ranged class skills.
This seems to be your argument. This is meta in some cases, but I would not call it meta most of the time. That said there are groups and circumstances where the damage loss from this is worth the safety.

3. melee weapons standing at the edge of melee range using ranged class skills.
This is I think is what Soarora is referring to. In my experience this is the meta. While it's true that zos like to make bosses move and have a lot of adds they also like to punish players for standing far from the boss and for not using cleave damage. Healing is easier if players are close to the boss and mechs are more predictable. Of course beaming and having other ranged skills helps a lot with mobility and people still end up in a non melee postion sometimes, but they regroup to melee.

4. melee weapons using melee skills.
This does have way too many drawbacks in both survivability and damage to me worthwhile.

I think we agree 1 and 4 both are quite behind. I think 2 and 3 are debatable, but I do think 3 is more common. Melee range is pretty big, so it's not hard to achieve, but I can see people finding themselves always just out of range and finding 2 to be more common.

You can stampede rakkhat if you step back after the stampede, btw.