Dont deactivate normal Cyrodiil or respectfully i will not play any title with a zenimax brand anymo

colossalvoids · November 27

SneaK wrote: »

IMO, this is their way to never have to work on balance again because they’ve messed it up so bad. I hear the term maintenance mode a lot lately, I think that’s this, it’s setting up the game so balance doesn’t matter and it will require much less manpower to maintain a game like that

That's the reason they've remembered there's a PvP in the game after all the years, it's an infinite and infinitely scaling content that in theory can sustain itself. Amazing opportunity for a main maintenance activity!

Issue is 10 years of neglect and playerbase change, be it actual singular players or their behaviours, habits etc. and people who are currently PvP aren't up for a yet another random "we're changing everything" ride with no endgame known to it. If only they've shown they do care about the balance a decent amount of folks would give their new idea a chance or at least partially swallows it, but alas balancing isn't the main concern when they need a fast bandaid to let the game play itself sustaining their past incomes and preferably multiplying it. Can't wait for their new progression system to turn out to be a PvP battle pass or something similar tied with excessive monetisation.

Radiate77 · November 27

colossalvoids wrote: »

Can't wait for their new progression system to turn out to be a PvP battle pass or something similar tied with excessive monetisation.

Come on, you know this is exactly what it will be.

fizzybeef · November 27

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Getsugatenso wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I think that this is an overblown reaction that lacks a lot of nuance. The Vengeance environment is far closer to a balanced and fun PvP experience than live Cyrodiil is.

I think that if Vengeance:
- Adjusted healing/damage/max health
- Added pure stat based sets only (Julianos is an example)
- Introduced snare removal and movement speed skills
- Added more complexity to burst skills (like making the merciless resolve proc require 5 light attacks)

Then it would actually be a pretty enjoyable PvP experience. It still wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a massive improvement over the current Vengeance and live Cyrodiil.

The best thing about all of this, is that those changes are actually easy to make and it wouldn't effect PvE environments whatsoever. Vengeance is a hard separation between PvP and PvE so it's an environment that allows for PvP specific balancing. This something that has been needed since the beginning. On top of that, subclassing isn't in Vengeance and they could even make it an environment where hybridization isn't a thing either.

Now I'm not naive, I don't have much faith that the Vengeance environment will be handled correctly so that it could live up to it's potential. However, I think getting Vengeance right is a FAR easier task for ZOS than getting live Cyrodiil right. Think about how much they would literally have to undo to fix live PvP. They also would have to keep PvE in mind while they try since live PvP isn't separate like Vengeance is.

Vengeance is ZOS' best shot at getting PvP to a decent place. Live Cyrodiil does not hold enough people these days, and it attracts even fewer. PvP is at the end of it's road right now. Even if they scrap Vengeance like you want, Cyrodiil will still be dead, laggy, and far too big. You are essentially trying to preserve a corpse.

So I encourage all the people who are extremely anti-Vengeance to see the bigger picture. It could be the foundation of a great PvP experience with some very easy to make changes. We would also no longer have to worry about PvE balancing impacting PvP. It's unlikely that ZOS will get it right, but there's not many options anymore. Either you guys let PvP take it's final breaths and have ZOS do nothing, or you support this latch ditch effort. They aren't fixing the disaster that is live Cyrodiil though, it's just too far gone.

People buy in-game content to use it.

This, end of, bottom line. I didnt grind all this gear or skills to be told what skills and gear i am allowed to use. If they can't understand why thats the case in an mmo rpg they need to go make something else.

I bought every chapter and have farmed all sort of sets and mythics, not just to have them deactivated. This would feel like scam to me and as i stated before would be a reason for me to not touch any title with a ZOS brand anymore

ceruulean · November 27

Stamicka wrote: »

React is right, in fact I saw him myself in Vengeance and I specifically remember a scenario where 3 newish players were just sitting there outhealing both of us. I popped a soul tether and stunned them (they weren't blocking) into React's destro ult and I'm pretty sure they still needed to be spammed after that. That sort of thing is completely unacceptable.

Yes I'm sure it was tough to kill 3v2 but they had the number advantage and couldn't kill you either. Maybe the ults need to be balanced or changed? DW ult does a lot more damage but it's dot and expensive, while destro ult is super cheap but lower damage and basically an accessible/universal templar sweep. Maybe react was using the mages guild comet, which had its dot component removed from what I remember. Idk. I don't know what soul tether does, stuns deal less damage in Vengeance for balance purposes.

Why is it unacceptable that you ended in a draw against a 3v2? That seems perfectly normal to me. The bigger team would have to make egregious mistakes like running out of resources, having a bad build, etc. to lose to a smaller team. In the next vengeance test, there will be a perk system so hopefully people run squishier builds than the default brawler build, and there will be penalties to healing if you spec into damage.

In real life, if you duel someone in a martial sport, like karate or fencing, you don't actually go on to kill the opponent, for obvious reasons. You stop short of where you outplayed them, then reset. These matches go for 10-20 points. The actual skirmish might last 2-3 seconds tops before the referee awards a point, but basically whoever makes 10 mistakes and gets outplayed first is the person who loses. I point out this real life allegory to sports because ESO is a video game, and video games must be designed to be fun. I'm assuming that dying is not fun, and dying is the equivalent to stopping the game.

So in Vengeance, if everyone starts equal, what is the threshold for someone to die? When they make 10 mistakes in the long run? Seems fair to me. If you make only 2 mistakes and lose all your HP, it's demoralizing because you have to respawn on a far keep, or an expensive 20k AP forward camp which has a cool down.

Or we can copy the western duel, where two people with a loaded gun stare at each other for 10 minutes, then whoever fires quickest ends the battle instantly and permanently. Maybe some people enjoy that type of encounter, but I don't, and I don't think most people do. That's the stuff that goes down in fictional stories because most people don't want to experience it, whether for real or in their video games. Of course, I hope ZoS allows gear and stats customization in Venegance, so people who want to spec into that type of gameplay are able to. But overall, the devs have to consider the core gameplay loop above what ESO PvP "should" be like.

Cyrodiil is not the place for "skill" to triumph, whatever skill it may be. Skill of ulti dumping? Skill of siege placement? Skill of raid leading? Who knows. Cyrodiil is for casuals, roleplayers, socializing, zergs, spies, and dangerous actors. I'm not saying this to be condescending. Cyrodiil an open-world field, designed for emergent gameplay, where the players decide their own objectives. If an entire guild wants to romp on mammoths through Cyrodiil, who are we to stop them? The higher population caps allow for non-combatants to play. If 1 or 2 die to a ganker, well, that's also part of the fun.

ToddIngram · November 27

fizzybeef wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Getsugatenso wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I think that this is an overblown reaction that lacks a lot of nuance. The Vengeance environment is far closer to a balanced and fun PvP experience than live Cyrodiil is.

I think that if Vengeance:
- Adjusted healing/damage/max health
- Added pure stat based sets only (Julianos is an example)
- Introduced snare removal and movement speed skills
- Added more complexity to burst skills (like making the merciless resolve proc require 5 light attacks)

Then it would actually be a pretty enjoyable PvP experience. It still wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a massive improvement over the current Vengeance and live Cyrodiil.

The best thing about all of this, is that those changes are actually easy to make and it wouldn't effect PvE environments whatsoever. Vengeance is a hard separation between PvP and PvE so it's an environment that allows for PvP specific balancing. This something that has been needed since the beginning. On top of that, subclassing isn't in Vengeance and they could even make it an environment where hybridization isn't a thing either.

Now I'm not naive, I don't have much faith that the Vengeance environment will be handled correctly so that it could live up to it's potential. However, I think getting Vengeance right is a FAR easier task for ZOS than getting live Cyrodiil right. Think about how much they would literally have to undo to fix live PvP. They also would have to keep PvE in mind while they try since live PvP isn't separate like Vengeance is.

Vengeance is ZOS' best shot at getting PvP to a decent place. Live Cyrodiil does not hold enough people these days, and it attracts even fewer. PvP is at the end of it's road right now. Even if they scrap Vengeance like you want, Cyrodiil will still be dead, laggy, and far too big. You are essentially trying to preserve a corpse.

So I encourage all the people who are extremely anti-Vengeance to see the bigger picture. It could be the foundation of a great PvP experience with some very easy to make changes. We would also no longer have to worry about PvE balancing impacting PvP. It's unlikely that ZOS will get it right, but there's not many options anymore. Either you guys let PvP take it's final breaths and have ZOS do nothing, or you support this latch ditch effort. They aren't fixing the disaster that is live Cyrodiil though, it's just too far gone.

People buy in-game content to use it.

This, end of, bottom line. I didnt grind all this gear or skills to be told what skills and gear i am allowed to use. If they can't understand why thats the case in an mmo rpg they need to go make something else.

I bought every chapter and have farmed all sort of sets and mythics, not just to have them deactivated. This would feel like scam to me and as i stated before would be a reason for me to not touch any title with a ZOS brand anymore

We'll see how it goes, but I agree 100%. If ZOS takes away the ability to use all these sets I've spent a decade grinding I'll not only be done with ZOS, I'll be done with everything Bethesda.

In the mean time I'll be boycotting everything vengeance. I'm not going to help ZOS justify taking away the game I log on to play.

Stamicka · November 27

ceruulean wrote: »

Cyrodiil is not the place for "skill" to triumph, whatever skill it may be. Skill of ulti dumping? Skill of siege placement? Skill of raid leading? Who knows. Cyrodiil is for casuals, roleplayers, socializing, zergs, spies, and dangerous actors. I'm not saying this to be condescending. Cyrodiil an open-world field, designed for emergent gameplay, where the players decide their own objectives. If an entire guild wants to romp on mammoths through Cyrodiil, who are we to stop them? The higher population caps allow for non-combatants to play. If 1 or 2 die to a ganker, well, that's also part of the fun.

I mean this is the only part I need to read tbh, I don’t think responding to the rest would be worthwhile if you think that Cyrodiil is not a place for skill to triumph. I fundamentally disagree with that and I can’t even understand that mentality if I’m honest.

ceruulean · November 27

Stamicka wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

Cyrodiil is not the place for "skill" to triumph, whatever skill it may be. Skill of ulti dumping? Skill of siege placement? Skill of raid leading? Who knows. Cyrodiil is for casuals, roleplayers, socializing, zergs, spies, and dangerous actors. I'm not saying this to be condescending. Cyrodiil an open-world field, designed for emergent gameplay, where the players decide their own objectives. If an entire guild wants to romp on mammoths through Cyrodiil, who are we to stop them? The higher population caps allow for non-combatants to play. If 1 or 2 die to a ganker, well, that's also part of the fun.

I mean this is the only part I need to read tbh, I don’t think responding to the rest would be worthwhile if you think that Cyrodiil is not a place for skill to triumph. I fundamentally disagree with that and I can’t even understand that mentality if I’m honest.

Is overland PvE the place where skill triumphs? Because it's not. If you want skilled PvP, you duel people or go into BGs or IC. Cyrodiil is not specifically designed for skilled players. There's too many scroll buffs and random passive advantages that are rewarded to people who may or may not have participated in a keep push or scroll run. You can disagree but whenever someone asks, "How do I dip my toes into PvP?" the larger community historically recommended Cyrodiil to new PvP players for a reason.

ToddIngram · November 28

ceruulean wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

Cyrodiil is not the place for "skill" to triumph, whatever skill it may be. Skill of ulti dumping? Skill of siege placement? Skill of raid leading? Who knows. Cyrodiil is for casuals, roleplayers, socializing, zergs, spies, and dangerous actors. I'm not saying this to be condescending. Cyrodiil an open-world field, designed for emergent gameplay, where the players decide their own objectives. If an entire guild wants to romp on mammoths through Cyrodiil, who are we to stop them? The higher population caps allow for non-combatants to play. If 1 or 2 die to a ganker, well, that's also part of the fun.

I mean this is the only part I need to read tbh, I don’t think responding to the rest would be worthwhile if you think that Cyrodiil is not a place for skill to triumph. I fundamentally disagree with that and I can’t even understand that mentality if I’m honest.

Is overland PvE the place where skill triumphs? Because it's not. If you want skilled PvP, you duel people or go into BGs or IC. Cyrodiil is not specifically designed for skilled players. There's too many scroll buffs and random passive advantages that are rewarded to people who may or may not have participated in a keep push or scroll run. You can disagree but whenever someone asks, "How do I dip my toes into PvP?" the larger community historically recommended Cyrodiil to new PvP players for a reason.

Spoken like a PvE main who never sets foot in Cyrodiil.

CaiWenji · November 28

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS literally said in the post that they don’t want to remove Grey Host.

Yes, but why was Scenario 2 mentioned at all if its not even a possibility or wanted by anyone?

ceruulean · November 28

ToddIngram wrote: »

Spoken like a PvE main who never sets foot in Cyrodiil.

I am a PvE main and I have stepped foot in Cyrodiil, so nice ad hominem that accomplishes nothing. So far, no one has actually answered or countered my points from a gameplay design perspective.

First of all, what is the point of Cyrodiil? This is so broad and vague that there is no correct answer. The generic answer is that it's for emergent PvP gameplay. This means that it needs to cater to both casual and hardcore players. Because of resource constraints, the devs must choose a main focus. They've answered this already: massive populations of medieval siege warfare. That's the main gameplay experience that ZoS wants for Cyrodiil. In order to entice people to join, it must cater to the lowest common denominator. I have heard players say: "I used to be a hardcore PvPer. Oh, I absolutely suck at fighting 1v1, but I used to raid with a ball group." You never needed a high level of fighting/mechanical skill to enjoy Cyrodiil PvP, and you won't in Vengeance either.

This is important, because everyone has a different definition of "skill," and if you don't specify which skill you're talking about, the message gets confused. As far as I'm concerned, Cyrodiil doesn't reward individual fighting skill. Actually, picking random 1v1 fights is a waste of time. You can do it for fun, of course, but the most AP gain comes from doing quests, capturing and defending keeps, and farming resources or pug players with a ball group. Currently, Cyrodiil rewards group coordination, shelling out $$$$ and grinding for DLC Monomyth mythics.

I think mythic items ruin the spirit of competition. How important is it to preserve the spirit of competition versus rewarding grinders who want to feel more powerful? Well, only ZoS can make a final decision on how to reward grinders and which stats to equalize.

What is the threshold for dying based on how many mistakes you make? Some people refer to this as the "time to kill." Given that Cyrodiil has one of the biggest open world PvP maps in the market, the punishment for dying is, on average, a tedious 30-40 second romp to another objective. Death is not that punishing in ESO compared to games like Conan Exiles, but you don't want people stuck riding on their horses for too long either. To put it simply: What is an acceptable "time to kill" between 2 players of the same skill level?

What is an acceptable time-to-kill that isn't too punishing for respawning, and lets you feel satisfied? Right now, in Vengeance it's maybe 2-5 minutes. I spent about 2-3 minutes dueling some random nightblade on my templar, in an open field without hiding behind walls or rocks. I checked with CMX addon. Once I hopped on my nightblade, I killed him in 1 minute, proving that there is a power imbalance between nightblade and templar. Is 2-5 minutes considered too long of a TTK? Should it be shorter or longer? So far, the TTK feels fine to me. It's better than the U40 meta with all the Undeath vampires tanking full-powered executes. Vengeance TTK feels a little longer than our current U48 meta of subclassed bow procs.

Anyway, the whole point of this thread is to complain about the scummy behavior of locking pay-to-win items behind expansions, and then ZoS doing a 180, "ah wait, maybe we should make PvP more equal after all!" Personally I'm fine with that. I'm glad that ZoS is making the necessary changes to make PvP gameplay more fun. I like doing equalized pvp, and I don't mind if all my PvP sets become useless if the actual PvP experience becomes more enjoyable, more people try PvP, and more people participate in it.

If I was a new customer who never bought ESO, and you show me peak footage from Vengeance, I would buy ESO in a heartbeat. If you show me peak footage from 2024-25 Gray Host Cyrodiil, I wouldn't bat an eye.

fizzybeef · November 28

ceruulean wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

Spoken like a PvE main who never sets foot in Cyrodiil.

I am a PvE main and I have stepped foot in Cyrodiil, so nice ad hominem that accomplishes nothing. So far, no one has actually answered or countered my points from a gameplay design perspective.

First of all, what is the point of Cyrodiil? This is so broad and vague that there is no correct answer. The generic answer is that it's for emergent PvP gameplay. This means that it needs to cater to both casual and hardcore players. Because of resource constraints, the devs must choose a main focus. They've answered this already: massive populations of medieval siege warfare. That's the main gameplay experience that ZoS wants for Cyrodiil. In order to entice people to join, it must cater to the lowest common denominator. I have heard players say: "I used to be a hardcore PvPer. Oh, I absolutely suck at fighting 1v1, but I used to raid with a ball group." You never needed a high level of fighting/mechanical skill to enjoy Cyrodiil PvP, and you won't in Vengeance either.

This is important, because everyone has a different definition of "skill," and if you don't specify which skill you're talking about, the message gets confused. As far as I'm concerned, Cyrodiil doesn't reward individual fighting skill. Actually, picking random 1v1 fights is a waste of time. You can do it for fun, of course, but the most AP gain comes from doing quests, capturing and defending keeps, and farming resources or pug players with a ball group. Currently, Cyrodiil rewards group coordination, shelling out $$$$ and grinding for DLC Monomyth mythics.

I think mythic items ruin the spirit of competition. How important is it to preserve the spirit of competition versus rewarding grinders who want to feel more powerful? Well, only ZoS can make a final decision on how to reward grinders and which stats to equalize.

What is the threshold for dying based on how many mistakes you make? Some people refer to this as the "time to kill." Given that Cyrodiil has one of the biggest open world PvP maps in the market, the punishment for dying is, on average, a tedious 30-40 second romp to another objective. Death is not that punishing in ESO compared to games like Conan Exiles, but you don't want people stuck riding on their horses for too long either. To put it simply: What is an acceptable "time to kill" between 2 players of the same skill level?

What is an acceptable time-to-kill that isn't too punishing for respawning, and lets you feel satisfied? Right now, in Vengeance it's maybe 2-5 minutes. I spent about 2-3 minutes dueling some random nightblade on my templar, in an open field without hiding behind walls or rocks. I checked with CMX addon. Once I hopped on my nightblade, I killed him in 1 minute, proving that there is a power imbalance between nightblade and templar. Is 2-5 minutes considered too long of a TTK? Should it be shorter or longer? So far, the TTK feels fine to me. It's better than the U40 meta with all the Undeath vampires tanking full-powered executes. Vengeance TTK feels a little longer than our current U48 meta of subclassed bow procs.

Anyway, the whole point of this thread is to complain about the scummy behavior of locking pay-to-win items behind expansions, and then ZoS doing a 180, "ah wait, maybe we should make PvP more equal after all!" Personally I'm fine with that. I'm glad that ZoS is making the necessary changes to make PvP gameplay more fun. I like doing equalized pvp, and I don't mind if all my PvP sets become useless if the actual PvP experience becomes more enjoyable, more people try PvP, and more people participate in it.

If I was a new customer who never bought ESO, and you show me peak footage from Vengeance, I would buy ESO in a heartbeat. If you show me peak footage from 2024-25 Gray Host Cyrodiil, I wouldn't bat an eye.

A lot of people (me included) bought eso first because of the prommised pvp.
And a lot of people (me included) leave instantly if vengeance becomes fix as only one option.

You dont understand cyro and thats fine, but no reason to talk it bad for others.

Divine1976 · November 28

Already eased up my playtime on this game, since this became a possibility.

I was farming pyre brand in IA but feels like a waste of time now and have lost the enthusiasm to continue

Vengeance can be fun every now and again but as the only option, no thanks. Once my current sub to ESO+ expires, it won't be renewed for the foreseeable.

MorallyBipolar · November 28

fizzybeef wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Getsugatenso wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I think that this is an overblown reaction that lacks a lot of nuance. The Vengeance environment is far closer to a balanced and fun PvP experience than live Cyrodiil is.

I think that if Vengeance:
- Adjusted healing/damage/max health
- Added pure stat based sets only (Julianos is an example)
- Introduced snare removal and movement speed skills
- Added more complexity to burst skills (like making the merciless resolve proc require 5 light attacks)

Then it would actually be a pretty enjoyable PvP experience. It still wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a massive improvement over the current Vengeance and live Cyrodiil.

The best thing about all of this, is that those changes are actually easy to make and it wouldn't effect PvE environments whatsoever. Vengeance is a hard separation between PvP and PvE so it's an environment that allows for PvP specific balancing. This something that has been needed since the beginning. On top of that, subclassing isn't in Vengeance and they could even make it an environment where hybridization isn't a thing either.

Now I'm not naive, I don't have much faith that the Vengeance environment will be handled correctly so that it could live up to it's potential. However, I think getting Vengeance right is a FAR easier task for ZOS than getting live Cyrodiil right. Think about how much they would literally have to undo to fix live PvP. They also would have to keep PvE in mind while they try since live PvP isn't separate like Vengeance is.

Vengeance is ZOS' best shot at getting PvP to a decent place. Live Cyrodiil does not hold enough people these days, and it attracts even fewer. PvP is at the end of it's road right now. Even if they scrap Vengeance like you want, Cyrodiil will still be dead, laggy, and far too big. You are essentially trying to preserve a corpse.

So I encourage all the people who are extremely anti-Vengeance to see the bigger picture. It could be the foundation of a great PvP experience with some very easy to make changes. We would also no longer have to worry about PvE balancing impacting PvP. It's unlikely that ZOS will get it right, but there's not many options anymore. Either you guys let PvP take it's final breaths and have ZOS do nothing, or you support this latch ditch effort. They aren't fixing the disaster that is live Cyrodiil though, it's just too far gone.

People buy in-game content to use it.

This, end of, bottom line. I didnt grind all this gear or skills to be told what skills and gear i am allowed to use. If they can't understand why thats the case in an mmo rpg they need to go make something else.

I bought every chapter and have farmed all sort of sets and mythics, not just to have them deactivated. This would feel like scam to me and as i stated before would be a reason for me to not touch any title with a ZOS brand anymore

Same. If vengeance becomes mandated I'll never by another ZOS product as long as I live. The reason is simple. I know I can't believe anything they say and investing my time and money into anything ZOS could be taken away from me on a whim and without warning, or worse, with a bait and switch just like they're doing with vengeance.

MorallyBipolar · November 28

fizzybeef wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

Spoken like a PvE main who never sets foot in Cyrodiil.

I am a PvE main and I have stepped foot in Cyrodiil, so nice ad hominem that accomplishes nothing. So far, no one has actually answered or countered my points from a gameplay design perspective.

First of all, what is the point of Cyrodiil? This is so broad and vague that there is no correct answer. The generic answer is that it's for emergent PvP gameplay. This means that it needs to cater to both casual and hardcore players. Because of resource constraints, the devs must choose a main focus. They've answered this already: massive populations of medieval siege warfare. That's the main gameplay experience that ZoS wants for Cyrodiil. In order to entice people to join, it must cater to the lowest common denominator. I have heard players say: "I used to be a hardcore PvPer. Oh, I absolutely suck at fighting 1v1, but I used to raid with a ball group." You never needed a high level of fighting/mechanical skill to enjoy Cyrodiil PvP, and you won't in Vengeance either.

This is important, because everyone has a different definition of "skill," and if you don't specify which skill you're talking about, the message gets confused. As far as I'm concerned, Cyrodiil doesn't reward individual fighting skill. Actually, picking random 1v1 fights is a waste of time. You can do it for fun, of course, but the most AP gain comes from doing quests, capturing and defending keeps, and farming resources or pug players with a ball group. Currently, Cyrodiil rewards group coordination, shelling out $$$$ and grinding for DLC Monomyth mythics.

I think mythic items ruin the spirit of competition. How important is it to preserve the spirit of competition versus rewarding grinders who want to feel more powerful? Well, only ZoS can make a final decision on how to reward grinders and which stats to equalize.

What is the threshold for dying based on how many mistakes you make? Some people refer to this as the "time to kill." Given that Cyrodiil has one of the biggest open world PvP maps in the market, the punishment for dying is, on average, a tedious 30-40 second romp to another objective. Death is not that punishing in ESO compared to games like Conan Exiles, but you don't want people stuck riding on their horses for too long either. To put it simply: What is an acceptable "time to kill" between 2 players of the same skill level?

What is an acceptable time-to-kill that isn't too punishing for respawning, and lets you feel satisfied? Right now, in Vengeance it's maybe 2-5 minutes. I spent about 2-3 minutes dueling some random nightblade on my templar, in an open field without hiding behind walls or rocks. I checked with CMX addon. Once I hopped on my nightblade, I killed him in 1 minute, proving that there is a power imbalance between nightblade and templar. Is 2-5 minutes considered too long of a TTK? Should it be shorter or longer? So far, the TTK feels fine to me. It's better than the U40 meta with all the Undeath vampires tanking full-powered executes. Vengeance TTK feels a little longer than our current U48 meta of subclassed bow procs.

Anyway, the whole point of this thread is to complain about the scummy behavior of locking pay-to-win items behind expansions, and then ZoS doing a 180, "ah wait, maybe we should make PvP more equal after all!" Personally I'm fine with that. I'm glad that ZoS is making the necessary changes to make PvP gameplay more fun. I like doing equalized pvp, and I don't mind if all my PvP sets become useless if the actual PvP experience becomes more enjoyable, more people try PvP, and more people participate in it.

If I was a new customer who never bought ESO, and you show me peak footage from Vengeance, I would buy ESO in a heartbeat. If you show me peak footage from 2024-25 Gray Host Cyrodiil, I wouldn't bat an eye.

A lot of people (me included) bought eso first because of the prommised pvp.
And a lot of people (me included) leave instantly if vengeance becomes fix as only one option.

You dont understand cyro and thats fine, but no reason to talk it bad for others.

Again, same for me. I bought ESO for the PvP. The only reason I participate in PvE is to get gears for PvP. So if vengeance is mandated it negates the need for me to PvE while at the same time driving me out of PvP. Vengeance will remove any reason for me to play ESO.

edward_frigidhands · November 29

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

Spoken like a PvE main who never sets foot in Cyrodiil.

I am a PvE main and I have stepped foot in Cyrodiil, so nice ad hominem that accomplishes nothing. So far, no one has actually answered or countered my points from a gameplay design perspective.

First of all, what is the point of Cyrodiil? This is so broad and vague that there is no correct answer. The generic answer is that it's for emergent PvP gameplay. This means that it needs to cater to both casual and hardcore players. Because of resource constraints, the devs must choose a main focus. They've answered this already: massive populations of medieval siege warfare. That's the main gameplay experience that ZoS wants for Cyrodiil. In order to entice people to join, it must cater to the lowest common denominator. I have heard players say: "I used to be a hardcore PvPer. Oh, I absolutely suck at fighting 1v1, but I used to raid with a ball group." You never needed a high level of fighting/mechanical skill to enjoy Cyrodiil PvP, and you won't in Vengeance either.

This is important, because everyone has a different definition of "skill," and if you don't specify which skill you're talking about, the message gets confused. As far as I'm concerned, Cyrodiil doesn't reward individual fighting skill. Actually, picking random 1v1 fights is a waste of time. You can do it for fun, of course, but the most AP gain comes from doing quests, capturing and defending keeps, and farming resources or pug players with a ball group. Currently, Cyrodiil rewards group coordination, shelling out $$$$ and grinding for DLC Monomyth mythics.

I think mythic items ruin the spirit of competition. How important is it to preserve the spirit of competition versus rewarding grinders who want to feel more powerful? Well, only ZoS can make a final decision on how to reward grinders and which stats to equalize.

What is the threshold for dying based on how many mistakes you make? Some people refer to this as the "time to kill." Given that Cyrodiil has one of the biggest open world PvP maps in the market, the punishment for dying is, on average, a tedious 30-40 second romp to another objective. Death is not that punishing in ESO compared to games like Conan Exiles, but you don't want people stuck riding on their horses for too long either. To put it simply: What is an acceptable "time to kill" between 2 players of the same skill level?

What is an acceptable time-to-kill that isn't too punishing for respawning, and lets you feel satisfied? Right now, in Vengeance it's maybe 2-5 minutes. I spent about 2-3 minutes dueling some random nightblade on my templar, in an open field without hiding behind walls or rocks. I checked with CMX addon. Once I hopped on my nightblade, I killed him in 1 minute, proving that there is a power imbalance between nightblade and templar. Is 2-5 minutes considered too long of a TTK? Should it be shorter or longer? So far, the TTK feels fine to me. It's better than the U40 meta with all the Undeath vampires tanking full-powered executes. Vengeance TTK feels a little longer than our current U48 meta of subclassed bow procs.

Anyway, the whole point of this thread is to complain about the scummy behavior of locking pay-to-win items behind expansions, and then ZoS doing a 180, "ah wait, maybe we should make PvP more equal after all!" Personally I'm fine with that. I'm glad that ZoS is making the necessary changes to make PvP gameplay more fun. I like doing equalized pvp, and I don't mind if all my PvP sets become useless if the actual PvP experience becomes more enjoyable, more people try PvP, and more people participate in it.

If I was a new customer who never bought ESO, and you show me peak footage from Vengeance, I would buy ESO in a heartbeat. If you show me peak footage from 2024-25 Gray Host Cyrodiil, I wouldn't bat an eye.

A lot of people (me included) bought eso first because of the prommised pvp.
And a lot of people (me included) leave instantly if vengeance becomes fix as only one option.

You dont understand cyro and thats fine, but no reason to talk it bad for others.

So if vengeance is mandated it negates the need for me to PvE while at the same time driving me out of PvP. Vengeance will remove any reason for me to play ESO.

Yes once Vengeance is the only Cyro campaign left, regardless of any other PvP content they release without it I am definitely done as well

Honestly if it weren't for all the time I have played and all the friends I have made I would probably have quit after reading the letter they put out.

xR3ACTORx · November 29

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Honestly if it weren't for all the time I have played and all the friends I have made I would probably have quit after reading the letter they put out.

I already did left on the day of the announcement cause I prefer not feeling like an idiot for playing this game.
I can still talk to my eso friends while playing other games.

BardokRedSnow · November 29

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

Spoken like a PvE main who never sets foot in Cyrodiil.

I am a PvE main and I have stepped foot in Cyrodiil, so nice ad hominem that accomplishes nothing. So far, no one has actually answered or countered my points from a gameplay design perspective.

First of all, what is the point of Cyrodiil? This is so broad and vague that there is no correct answer. The generic answer is that it's for emergent PvP gameplay. This means that it needs to cater to both casual and hardcore players. Because of resource constraints, the devs must choose a main focus. They've answered this already: massive populations of medieval siege warfare. That's the main gameplay experience that ZoS wants for Cyrodiil. In order to entice people to join, it must cater to the lowest common denominator. I have heard players say: "I used to be a hardcore PvPer. Oh, I absolutely suck at fighting 1v1, but I used to raid with a ball group." You never needed a high level of fighting/mechanical skill to enjoy Cyrodiil PvP, and you won't in Vengeance either.

This is important, because everyone has a different definition of "skill," and if you don't specify which skill you're talking about, the message gets confused. As far as I'm concerned, Cyrodiil doesn't reward individual fighting skill. Actually, picking random 1v1 fights is a waste of time. You can do it for fun, of course, but the most AP gain comes from doing quests, capturing and defending keeps, and farming resources or pug players with a ball group. Currently, Cyrodiil rewards group coordination, shelling out $$$$ and grinding for DLC Monomyth mythics.

I think mythic items ruin the spirit of competition. How important is it to preserve the spirit of competition versus rewarding grinders who want to feel more powerful? Well, only ZoS can make a final decision on how to reward grinders and which stats to equalize.

What is the threshold for dying based on how many mistakes you make? Some people refer to this as the "time to kill." Given that Cyrodiil has one of the biggest open world PvP maps in the market, the punishment for dying is, on average, a tedious 30-40 second romp to another objective. Death is not that punishing in ESO compared to games like Conan Exiles, but you don't want people stuck riding on their horses for too long either. To put it simply: What is an acceptable "time to kill" between 2 players of the same skill level?

What is an acceptable time-to-kill that isn't too punishing for respawning, and lets you feel satisfied? Right now, in Vengeance it's maybe 2-5 minutes. I spent about 2-3 minutes dueling some random nightblade on my templar, in an open field without hiding behind walls or rocks. I checked with CMX addon. Once I hopped on my nightblade, I killed him in 1 minute, proving that there is a power imbalance between nightblade and templar. Is 2-5 minutes considered too long of a TTK? Should it be shorter or longer? So far, the TTK feels fine to me. It's better than the U40 meta with all the Undeath vampires tanking full-powered executes. Vengeance TTK feels a little longer than our current U48 meta of subclassed bow procs.

Anyway, the whole point of this thread is to complain about the scummy behavior of locking pay-to-win items behind expansions, and then ZoS doing a 180, "ah wait, maybe we should make PvP more equal after all!" Personally I'm fine with that. I'm glad that ZoS is making the necessary changes to make PvP gameplay more fun. I like doing equalized pvp, and I don't mind if all my PvP sets become useless if the actual PvP experience becomes more enjoyable, more people try PvP, and more people participate in it.

If I was a new customer who never bought ESO, and you show me peak footage from Vengeance, I would buy ESO in a heartbeat. If you show me peak footage from 2024-25 Gray Host Cyrodiil, I wouldn't bat an eye.

A lot of people (me included) bought eso first because of the prommised pvp.
And a lot of people (me included) leave instantly if vengeance becomes fix as only one option.

You dont understand cyro and thats fine, but no reason to talk it bad for others.

So if vengeance is mandated it negates the need for me to PvE while at the same time driving me out of PvP. Vengeance will remove any reason for me to play ESO.

Yes once Vengeance is the only Cyro campaign left, regardless of any other PvP content they release without it I am definitely done as well

Honestly if it weren't for all the time I have played and all the friends I have made I would probably have quit after reading the letter they put out.

This is the only reason I returned to try subclassing tbh, and is the only thing keeping me here to see what happens to Cyrodiil. It will be depressing but not as depressing as staying to watch pvers kill the thing that kept me here buying crown crates and *** for years.

CatoUnchained · November 29

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

Spoken like a PvE main who never sets foot in Cyrodiil.

I am a PvE main and I have stepped foot in Cyrodiil, so nice ad hominem that accomplishes nothing. So far, no one has actually answered or countered my points from a gameplay design perspective.

First of all, what is the point of Cyrodiil? This is so broad and vague that there is no correct answer. The generic answer is that it's for emergent PvP gameplay. This means that it needs to cater to both casual and hardcore players. Because of resource constraints, the devs must choose a main focus. They've answered this already: massive populations of medieval siege warfare. That's the main gameplay experience that ZoS wants for Cyrodiil. In order to entice people to join, it must cater to the lowest common denominator. I have heard players say: "I used to be a hardcore PvPer. Oh, I absolutely suck at fighting 1v1, but I used to raid with a ball group." You never needed a high level of fighting/mechanical skill to enjoy Cyrodiil PvP, and you won't in Vengeance either.

This is important, because everyone has a different definition of "skill," and if you don't specify which skill you're talking about, the message gets confused. As far as I'm concerned, Cyrodiil doesn't reward individual fighting skill. Actually, picking random 1v1 fights is a waste of time. You can do it for fun, of course, but the most AP gain comes from doing quests, capturing and defending keeps, and farming resources or pug players with a ball group. Currently, Cyrodiil rewards group coordination, shelling out $$$$ and grinding for DLC Monomyth mythics.

I think mythic items ruin the spirit of competition. How important is it to preserve the spirit of competition versus rewarding grinders who want to feel more powerful? Well, only ZoS can make a final decision on how to reward grinders and which stats to equalize.

What is the threshold for dying based on how many mistakes you make? Some people refer to this as the "time to kill." Given that Cyrodiil has one of the biggest open world PvP maps in the market, the punishment for dying is, on average, a tedious 30-40 second romp to another objective. Death is not that punishing in ESO compared to games like Conan Exiles, but you don't want people stuck riding on their horses for too long either. To put it simply: What is an acceptable "time to kill" between 2 players of the same skill level?

What is an acceptable time-to-kill that isn't too punishing for respawning, and lets you feel satisfied? Right now, in Vengeance it's maybe 2-5 minutes. I spent about 2-3 minutes dueling some random nightblade on my templar, in an open field without hiding behind walls or rocks. I checked with CMX addon. Once I hopped on my nightblade, I killed him in 1 minute, proving that there is a power imbalance between nightblade and templar. Is 2-5 minutes considered too long of a TTK? Should it be shorter or longer? So far, the TTK feels fine to me. It's better than the U40 meta with all the Undeath vampires tanking full-powered executes. Vengeance TTK feels a little longer than our current U48 meta of subclassed bow procs.

Anyway, the whole point of this thread is to complain about the scummy behavior of locking pay-to-win items behind expansions, and then ZoS doing a 180, "ah wait, maybe we should make PvP more equal after all!" Personally I'm fine with that. I'm glad that ZoS is making the necessary changes to make PvP gameplay more fun. I like doing equalized pvp, and I don't mind if all my PvP sets become useless if the actual PvP experience becomes more enjoyable, more people try PvP, and more people participate in it.

If I was a new customer who never bought ESO, and you show me peak footage from Vengeance, I would buy ESO in a heartbeat. If you show me peak footage from 2024-25 Gray Host Cyrodiil, I wouldn't bat an eye.

A lot of people (me included) bought eso first because of the prommised pvp.
And a lot of people (me included) leave instantly if vengeance becomes fix as only one option.

You dont understand cyro and thats fine, but no reason to talk it bad for others.

So if vengeance is mandated it negates the need for me to PvE while at the same time driving me out of PvP. Vengeance will remove any reason for me to play ESO.

Yes once Vengeance is the only Cyro campaign left, regardless of any other PvP content they release without it I am definitely done as well

Honestly if it weren't for all the time I have played and all the friends I have made I would probably have quit after reading the letter they put out.

Add me to the list. If ZOS takes away normal live Cyrodiil there will be no reason for me to log on to ESO. Anyone else remember the "they're working on it" video featuring a main dev and his wife? This current situation sure puts that video in perspective now doesn't it.

Stridig · November 29

CatoUnchained wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

Spoken like a PvE main who never sets foot in Cyrodiil.

I am a PvE main and I have stepped foot in Cyrodiil, so nice ad hominem that accomplishes nothing. So far, no one has actually answered or countered my points from a gameplay design perspective.

First of all, what is the point of Cyrodiil? This is so broad and vague that there is no correct answer. The generic answer is that it's for emergent PvP gameplay. This means that it needs to cater to both casual and hardcore players. Because of resource constraints, the devs must choose a main focus. They've answered this already: massive populations of medieval siege warfare. That's the main gameplay experience that ZoS wants for Cyrodiil. In order to entice people to join, it must cater to the lowest common denominator. I have heard players say: "I used to be a hardcore PvPer. Oh, I absolutely suck at fighting 1v1, but I used to raid with a ball group." You never needed a high level of fighting/mechanical skill to enjoy Cyrodiil PvP, and you won't in Vengeance either.

This is important, because everyone has a different definition of "skill," and if you don't specify which skill you're talking about, the message gets confused. As far as I'm concerned, Cyrodiil doesn't reward individual fighting skill. Actually, picking random 1v1 fights is a waste of time. You can do it for fun, of course, but the most AP gain comes from doing quests, capturing and defending keeps, and farming resources or pug players with a ball group. Currently, Cyrodiil rewards group coordination, shelling out $$$$ and grinding for DLC Monomyth mythics.

I think mythic items ruin the spirit of competition. How important is it to preserve the spirit of competition versus rewarding grinders who want to feel more powerful? Well, only ZoS can make a final decision on how to reward grinders and which stats to equalize.

What is the threshold for dying based on how many mistakes you make? Some people refer to this as the "time to kill." Given that Cyrodiil has one of the biggest open world PvP maps in the market, the punishment for dying is, on average, a tedious 30-40 second romp to another objective. Death is not that punishing in ESO compared to games like Conan Exiles, but you don't want people stuck riding on their horses for too long either. To put it simply: What is an acceptable "time to kill" between 2 players of the same skill level?

What is an acceptable time-to-kill that isn't too punishing for respawning, and lets you feel satisfied? Right now, in Vengeance it's maybe 2-5 minutes. I spent about 2-3 minutes dueling some random nightblade on my templar, in an open field without hiding behind walls or rocks. I checked with CMX addon. Once I hopped on my nightblade, I killed him in 1 minute, proving that there is a power imbalance between nightblade and templar. Is 2-5 minutes considered too long of a TTK? Should it be shorter or longer? So far, the TTK feels fine to me. It's better than the U40 meta with all the Undeath vampires tanking full-powered executes. Vengeance TTK feels a little longer than our current U48 meta of subclassed bow procs.

Anyway, the whole point of this thread is to complain about the scummy behavior of locking pay-to-win items behind expansions, and then ZoS doing a 180, "ah wait, maybe we should make PvP more equal after all!" Personally I'm fine with that. I'm glad that ZoS is making the necessary changes to make PvP gameplay more fun. I like doing equalized pvp, and I don't mind if all my PvP sets become useless if the actual PvP experience becomes more enjoyable, more people try PvP, and more people participate in it.

If I was a new customer who never bought ESO, and you show me peak footage from Vengeance, I would buy ESO in a heartbeat. If you show me peak footage from 2024-25 Gray Host Cyrodiil, I wouldn't bat an eye.

A lot of people (me included) bought eso first because of the prommised pvp.
And a lot of people (me included) leave instantly if vengeance becomes fix as only one option.

You dont understand cyro and thats fine, but no reason to talk it bad for others.

So if vengeance is mandated it negates the need for me to PvE while at the same time driving me out of PvP. Vengeance will remove any reason for me to play ESO.

Yes once Vengeance is the only Cyro campaign left, regardless of any other PvP content they release without it I am definitely done as well

Honestly if it weren't for all the time I have played and all the friends I have made I would probably have quit after reading the letter they put out.

Add me to the list. If ZOS takes away normal live Cyrodiil there will be no reason for me to log on to ESO. Anyone else remember the "they're working on it" video featuring a main dev and his wife? This current situation sure puts that video in perspective now doesn't it.

That video is one example of the player community getting treated like trash. There are also content creators who have been publicly humiliated for thousands of people to see. It's never been about us.

heaven13 · November 29

ceruulean wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

React is right, in fact I saw him myself in Vengeance and I specifically remember a scenario where 3 newish players were just sitting there outhealing both of us. I popped a soul tether and stunned them (they weren't blocking) into React's destro ult and I'm pretty sure they still needed to be spammed after that. That sort of thing is completely unacceptable.

In real life, if you duel someone in a martial sport, like karate or fencing, you don't actually go on to kill the opponent, for obvious reasons. You stop short of where you outplayed them, then reset. These matches go for 10-20 points. The actual skirmish might last 2-3 seconds tops before the referee awards a point, but basically whoever makes 10 mistakes and gets outplayed first is the person who loses. I point out this real life allegory to sports because ESO is a video game, and video games must be designed to be fun. I'm assuming that dying is not fun, and dying is the equivalent to stopping the game.

In real life, dead is dead. In a video game, dead is "rez at nearest owned keep/spawn point and continue with basically no other consequences". Maybe losing/dying provides an incentive to improve. In a 1v1, the better skilled player should win. Just like your analogy. Now let's use your analogy for 3v1, or 5v1 or Xv1 and pretend the 1 is Bruce Lee. It stands to reason that Bruce Lee would still beat 3 players, especially 3 fighters who have only seen the sport on TV or maybe took a class as a kid in elementary school.

reazea · November 29

Stridig wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

Spoken like a PvE main who never sets foot in Cyrodiil.

I am a PvE main and I have stepped foot in Cyrodiil, so nice ad hominem that accomplishes nothing. So far, no one has actually answered or countered my points from a gameplay design perspective.

First of all, what is the point of Cyrodiil? This is so broad and vague that there is no correct answer. The generic answer is that it's for emergent PvP gameplay. This means that it needs to cater to both casual and hardcore players. Because of resource constraints, the devs must choose a main focus. They've answered this already: massive populations of medieval siege warfare. That's the main gameplay experience that ZoS wants for Cyrodiil. In order to entice people to join, it must cater to the lowest common denominator. I have heard players say: "I used to be a hardcore PvPer. Oh, I absolutely suck at fighting 1v1, but I used to raid with a ball group." You never needed a high level of fighting/mechanical skill to enjoy Cyrodiil PvP, and you won't in Vengeance either.

This is important, because everyone has a different definition of "skill," and if you don't specify which skill you're talking about, the message gets confused. As far as I'm concerned, Cyrodiil doesn't reward individual fighting skill. Actually, picking random 1v1 fights is a waste of time. You can do it for fun, of course, but the most AP gain comes from doing quests, capturing and defending keeps, and farming resources or pug players with a ball group. Currently, Cyrodiil rewards group coordination, shelling out $$$$ and grinding for DLC Monomyth mythics.

I think mythic items ruin the spirit of competition. How important is it to preserve the spirit of competition versus rewarding grinders who want to feel more powerful? Well, only ZoS can make a final decision on how to reward grinders and which stats to equalize.

What is the threshold for dying based on how many mistakes you make? Some people refer to this as the "time to kill." Given that Cyrodiil has one of the biggest open world PvP maps in the market, the punishment for dying is, on average, a tedious 30-40 second romp to another objective. Death is not that punishing in ESO compared to games like Conan Exiles, but you don't want people stuck riding on their horses for too long either. To put it simply: What is an acceptable "time to kill" between 2 players of the same skill level?

What is an acceptable time-to-kill that isn't too punishing for respawning, and lets you feel satisfied? Right now, in Vengeance it's maybe 2-5 minutes. I spent about 2-3 minutes dueling some random nightblade on my templar, in an open field without hiding behind walls or rocks. I checked with CMX addon. Once I hopped on my nightblade, I killed him in 1 minute, proving that there is a power imbalance between nightblade and templar. Is 2-5 minutes considered too long of a TTK? Should it be shorter or longer? So far, the TTK feels fine to me. It's better than the U40 meta with all the Undeath vampires tanking full-powered executes. Vengeance TTK feels a little longer than our current U48 meta of subclassed bow procs.

Anyway, the whole point of this thread is to complain about the scummy behavior of locking pay-to-win items behind expansions, and then ZoS doing a 180, "ah wait, maybe we should make PvP more equal after all!" Personally I'm fine with that. I'm glad that ZoS is making the necessary changes to make PvP gameplay more fun. I like doing equalized pvp, and I don't mind if all my PvP sets become useless if the actual PvP experience becomes more enjoyable, more people try PvP, and more people participate in it.

If I was a new customer who never bought ESO, and you show me peak footage from Vengeance, I would buy ESO in a heartbeat. If you show me peak footage from 2024-25 Gray Host Cyrodiil, I wouldn't bat an eye.

A lot of people (me included) bought eso first because of the prommised pvp.
And a lot of people (me included) leave instantly if vengeance becomes fix as only one option.

You dont understand cyro and thats fine, but no reason to talk it bad for others.

So if vengeance is mandated it negates the need for me to PvE while at the same time driving me out of PvP. Vengeance will remove any reason for me to play ESO.

Yes once Vengeance is the only Cyro campaign left, regardless of any other PvP content they release without it I am definitely done as well

Honestly if it weren't for all the time I have played and all the friends I have made I would probably have quit after reading the letter they put out.

Add me to the list. If ZOS takes away normal live Cyrodiil there will be no reason for me to log on to ESO. Anyone else remember the "they're working on it" video featuring a main dev and his wife? This current situation sure puts that video in perspective now doesn't it.

That video is one example of the player community getting treated like trash. There are also content creators who have been publicly humiliated for thousands of people to see. It's never been about us.

This is the video people are discussing, for those who haven't seen it yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLS3ROGw_A

As Cato said, it really puts this whole vengeance issue in perspective, doesn't it.

Personally I won't be playing any version of vengeance ever again, ever, not for any reason. I'll just have to move on if ZOS makes vengeance the only option.

Radiate77 · November 29

reazea wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

Spoken like a PvE main who never sets foot in Cyrodiil.

I am a PvE main and I have stepped foot in Cyrodiil, so nice ad hominem that accomplishes nothing. So far, no one has actually answered or countered my points from a gameplay design perspective.

First of all, what is the point of Cyrodiil? This is so broad and vague that there is no correct answer. The generic answer is that it's for emergent PvP gameplay. This means that it needs to cater to both casual and hardcore players. Because of resource constraints, the devs must choose a main focus. They've answered this already: massive populations of medieval siege warfare. That's the main gameplay experience that ZoS wants for Cyrodiil. In order to entice people to join, it must cater to the lowest common denominator. I have heard players say: "I used to be a hardcore PvPer. Oh, I absolutely suck at fighting 1v1, but I used to raid with a ball group." You never needed a high level of fighting/mechanical skill to enjoy Cyrodiil PvP, and you won't in Vengeance either.

This is important, because everyone has a different definition of "skill," and if you don't specify which skill you're talking about, the message gets confused. As far as I'm concerned, Cyrodiil doesn't reward individual fighting skill. Actually, picking random 1v1 fights is a waste of time. You can do it for fun, of course, but the most AP gain comes from doing quests, capturing and defending keeps, and farming resources or pug players with a ball group. Currently, Cyrodiil rewards group coordination, shelling out $$$$ and grinding for DLC Monomyth mythics.

I think mythic items ruin the spirit of competition. How important is it to preserve the spirit of competition versus rewarding grinders who want to feel more powerful? Well, only ZoS can make a final decision on how to reward grinders and which stats to equalize.

What is the threshold for dying based on how many mistakes you make? Some people refer to this as the "time to kill." Given that Cyrodiil has one of the biggest open world PvP maps in the market, the punishment for dying is, on average, a tedious 30-40 second romp to another objective. Death is not that punishing in ESO compared to games like Conan Exiles, but you don't want people stuck riding on their horses for too long either. To put it simply: What is an acceptable "time to kill" between 2 players of the same skill level?

What is an acceptable time-to-kill that isn't too punishing for respawning, and lets you feel satisfied? Right now, in Vengeance it's maybe 2-5 minutes. I spent about 2-3 minutes dueling some random nightblade on my templar, in an open field without hiding behind walls or rocks. I checked with CMX addon. Once I hopped on my nightblade, I killed him in 1 minute, proving that there is a power imbalance between nightblade and templar. Is 2-5 minutes considered too long of a TTK? Should it be shorter or longer? So far, the TTK feels fine to me. It's better than the U40 meta with all the Undeath vampires tanking full-powered executes. Vengeance TTK feels a little longer than our current U48 meta of subclassed bow procs.

Anyway, the whole point of this thread is to complain about the scummy behavior of locking pay-to-win items behind expansions, and then ZoS doing a 180, "ah wait, maybe we should make PvP more equal after all!" Personally I'm fine with that. I'm glad that ZoS is making the necessary changes to make PvP gameplay more fun. I like doing equalized pvp, and I don't mind if all my PvP sets become useless if the actual PvP experience becomes more enjoyable, more people try PvP, and more people participate in it.

If I was a new customer who never bought ESO, and you show me peak footage from Vengeance, I would buy ESO in a heartbeat. If you show me peak footage from 2024-25 Gray Host Cyrodiil, I wouldn't bat an eye.

A lot of people (me included) bought eso first because of the prommised pvp.
And a lot of people (me included) leave instantly if vengeance becomes fix as only one option.

You dont understand cyro and thats fine, but no reason to talk it bad for others.

So if vengeance is mandated it negates the need for me to PvE while at the same time driving me out of PvP. Vengeance will remove any reason for me to play ESO.

Yes once Vengeance is the only Cyro campaign left, regardless of any other PvP content they release without it I am definitely done as well

Honestly if it weren't for all the time I have played and all the friends I have made I would probably have quit after reading the letter they put out.

Add me to the list. If ZOS takes away normal live Cyrodiil there will be no reason for me to log on to ESO. Anyone else remember the "they're working on it" video featuring a main dev and his wife? This current situation sure puts that video in perspective now doesn't it.

That video is one example of the player community getting treated like trash. There are also content creators who have been publicly humiliated for thousands of people to see. It's never been about us.

This is the video people are discussing, for those who haven't seen it yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLS3ROGw_A

As Cato said, it really puts this whole vengeance issue in perspective, doesn't it.

Personally I won't be playing any version of vengeance ever again, ever, not for any reason. I'll just have to move on if ZOS makes vengeance the only option.

I wonder how many times this same clip is going to be used to try to discredit Rich or the team, because his wife who is not employed by ZOS, was tired of the harassment her husband kept receiving on stream.

While I agree, and have always agreed, that PvP needs attention, there are people in our community that take things too far… borderline criminal.

tomofhyrule · November 29

Radiate77 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

Spoken like a PvE main who never sets foot in Cyrodiil.

I am a PvE main and I have stepped foot in Cyrodiil, so nice ad hominem that accomplishes nothing. So far, no one has actually answered or countered my points from a gameplay design perspective.

First of all, what is the point of Cyrodiil? This is so broad and vague that there is no correct answer. The generic answer is that it's for emergent PvP gameplay. This means that it needs to cater to both casual and hardcore players. Because of resource constraints, the devs must choose a main focus. They've answered this already: massive populations of medieval siege warfare. That's the main gameplay experience that ZoS wants for Cyrodiil. In order to entice people to join, it must cater to the lowest common denominator. I have heard players say: "I used to be a hardcore PvPer. Oh, I absolutely suck at fighting 1v1, but I used to raid with a ball group." You never needed a high level of fighting/mechanical skill to enjoy Cyrodiil PvP, and you won't in Vengeance either.

This is important, because everyone has a different definition of "skill," and if you don't specify which skill you're talking about, the message gets confused. As far as I'm concerned, Cyrodiil doesn't reward individual fighting skill. Actually, picking random 1v1 fights is a waste of time. You can do it for fun, of course, but the most AP gain comes from doing quests, capturing and defending keeps, and farming resources or pug players with a ball group. Currently, Cyrodiil rewards group coordination, shelling out $$$$ and grinding for DLC Monomyth mythics.

I think mythic items ruin the spirit of competition. How important is it to preserve the spirit of competition versus rewarding grinders who want to feel more powerful? Well, only ZoS can make a final decision on how to reward grinders and which stats to equalize.

What is the threshold for dying based on how many mistakes you make? Some people refer to this as the "time to kill." Given that Cyrodiil has one of the biggest open world PvP maps in the market, the punishment for dying is, on average, a tedious 30-40 second romp to another objective. Death is not that punishing in ESO compared to games like Conan Exiles, but you don't want people stuck riding on their horses for too long either. To put it simply: What is an acceptable "time to kill" between 2 players of the same skill level?

What is an acceptable time-to-kill that isn't too punishing for respawning, and lets you feel satisfied? Right now, in Vengeance it's maybe 2-5 minutes. I spent about 2-3 minutes dueling some random nightblade on my templar, in an open field without hiding behind walls or rocks. I checked with CMX addon. Once I hopped on my nightblade, I killed him in 1 minute, proving that there is a power imbalance between nightblade and templar. Is 2-5 minutes considered too long of a TTK? Should it be shorter or longer? So far, the TTK feels fine to me. It's better than the U40 meta with all the Undeath vampires tanking full-powered executes. Vengeance TTK feels a little longer than our current U48 meta of subclassed bow procs.

Anyway, the whole point of this thread is to complain about the scummy behavior of locking pay-to-win items behind expansions, and then ZoS doing a 180, "ah wait, maybe we should make PvP more equal after all!" Personally I'm fine with that. I'm glad that ZoS is making the necessary changes to make PvP gameplay more fun. I like doing equalized pvp, and I don't mind if all my PvP sets become useless if the actual PvP experience becomes more enjoyable, more people try PvP, and more people participate in it.

If I was a new customer who never bought ESO, and you show me peak footage from Vengeance, I would buy ESO in a heartbeat. If you show me peak footage from 2024-25 Gray Host Cyrodiil, I wouldn't bat an eye.

A lot of people (me included) bought eso first because of the prommised pvp.
And a lot of people (me included) leave instantly if vengeance becomes fix as only one option.

You dont understand cyro and thats fine, but no reason to talk it bad for others.

So if vengeance is mandated it negates the need for me to PvE while at the same time driving me out of PvP. Vengeance will remove any reason for me to play ESO.

Yes once Vengeance is the only Cyro campaign left, regardless of any other PvP content they release without it I am definitely done as well

Honestly if it weren't for all the time I have played and all the friends I have made I would probably have quit after reading the letter they put out.

Add me to the list. If ZOS takes away normal live Cyrodiil there will be no reason for me to log on to ESO. Anyone else remember the "they're working on it" video featuring a main dev and his wife? This current situation sure puts that video in perspective now doesn't it.

That video is one example of the player community getting treated like trash. There are also content creators who have been publicly humiliated for thousands of people to see. It's never been about us.

This is the video people are discussing, for those who haven't seen it yet.

[snip]

As Cato said, it really puts this whole vengeance issue in perspective, doesn't it.

Personally I won't be playing any version of vengeance ever again, ever, not for any reason. I'll just have to move on if ZOS makes vengeance the only option.

I wonder how many times this same clip is going to be used to try to discredit Rich or the team, because his wife who is not employed by ZOS, was tired of the harassment her husband kept receiving on stream.

While I agree, and have always agreed, that PvP needs attention, there are people in our community that take things too far… borderline criminal.

I'll also say there was a part of context of that clip that a lot of people do not bring with it: the discussion at the time was about disability accessibility in game (e.g. things like colorblind modes or the like), and the conversation was then usurped by people screaming something to the effect of "MY DISABILITY IS THAT CYRODIIL ISN'T WORKING!!!11!1!"

That being said, I do not think the devs are wholly blameless in everything. "PvP" as a keyword did not need to lead to getting silenced on Twitch. And the current opinions on the effectiveness of the current PvP Team Leader are completely valid after the BG stream last year, and his answers to a lot of things during the AMA we had.
(and the fact that we're still waiting for that Q&A they promised... which by this point is so far out of date that they may as well do another one because we all have a whole lot of new questions)

fizzybeef · November 30

The fact is just zos is pushing a path wich is not liked or wanted by the majority of the population.

I dont remember anyone asking for make live cyrodiil capable of 900 people again.

First because nobody knew what the actual population cap is, second on some plattforms not even the current cap is getting NEARLY reached (speaking for the consoles)

PS EU and X Box EU have not been full bars for months.

People asked for fixing pvp (people have different opinions on how to do that) and Zos just be like - oh well then we take just everything from you to reduce the calculations and increase the cap (what never be reached anyway and then even more likely never be reached).

People do not want Vengeance as ONLY ONE OPTION and if you have multiple options both wont be ever populated.

It is time to finally listen zos, youre making people leave your game!

Gabriel_H · November 30

fizzybeef wrote: »

The fact is just zos is pushing a path wich is not liked or wanted by the majority of the population.

You have no idea if that is true.

fizzybeef wrote: »

I dont remember anyone asking for make live cyrodiil capable of 900 people again.

I know plenty of PvPers who complain about Cyro being a ghost town at peak hours and pop locked. More players = more battles simulataneously = more dynamic map.

fizzybeef wrote: »

First because nobody knew what the actual population cap is

Addons estimated the cap. They had it pegged at 75 - 100. Turns out it's currently 120. Pretty good estimate.

fizzybeef wrote: »

second on some plattforms not even the current cap is getting NEARLY reached (speaking for the consoles) .. PS EU and X Box EU have not been full bars for months.

Without knowing the overall population that has zero context. ZOS have also already said they are working on crossplay. When player numbers get too low it snowballs. Increasing those numbers through crossplay may rebound the numbers overall.

fizzybeef wrote: »

People asked for fixing pvp (people have different opinions on how to do that) and Zos just be like - oh well then we take just everything from you to reduce the calculations and increase the cap (what never be reached anyway and then even more likely never be reached).

The calculations are the problem. Vengeance as is isn't the route I would have taken, but the calcs need to be reduced somehow. Whether that is Vengeance, removing DoT and HoT stacking, or limiting skills in PvP areas.

fizzybeef wrote: »

People do not want Vengeance as ONLY ONE OPTION and if you have multiple options both wont be ever populated.

ZOS have said they want Vengeance and current Cyro to be available options.

fizzybeef wrote: »

It is time to finally listen zos, youre making people leave your game!

How are they not listening?

Players: Fix PvP
ZOS: Ok, here you go
Player 1: No, not like that
Player 2: That looks fun
Player 3: Meh

I suspect you mean you want them to listen to you.

imPDA · November 30

Radiate77 wrote: »

I wonder how many times this same clip is going to be used to try to discredit Rich or the team, because his wife who is not employed by ZOS, was tired of the harassment her husband kept receiving on stream.

If she is not ZOS employee, she should not appear on stream. Especially if she is not professional enough to handle this situation the other way than make faces at the camera. Period.

This stream was watched by many people, and you have responsibility while talking publicly, no? When on the Earth it became normal to clown on camera?

xR3ACTORx · November 30

I can confirm on Xbox EU Cyro is dead despite a few people on each alliance. If ZOS proceeds eliminating their playerbase with that pace by introducing more unwanted vengeance "test" then there won't be any pvpers left when crossplay will be introduced anyway.

900 players cap is not needed on consoles.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Gabriel_H · November 30

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

900 players cap is not needed on consoles.
[snip]

ZOS' stated goal is crossplay.
[edited to remove quote]

spartaxoxo · November 30

imPDA wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

I wonder how many times this same clip is going to be used to try to discredit Rich or the team, because his wife who is not employed by ZOS, was tired of the harassment her husband kept receiving on stream.

If she is not ZOS employee, she should not appear on stream. Especially if she is not professional enough to handle this situation the other way than make faces at the camera. Period.

This stream was watched by many people, and you have responsibility while talking publicly, no? When on the Earth it became normal to clown on camera?

It wasn't a ZOS stream. It was her own personal stream about disability in gaming. PvPers joined because she was using her husband's channel but it was clearly her stream that day and she was trying to talk about handicap options. That's the context typically missing from this take. Her husband is a ZOS employee and at the time he was doing unofficial streams where he played the game, sometimes did some pet charity thing, and occasionally answered questions about the game in a more candid way.

Anyway, she obviously shouldn't have snapped but she is not a ZOS employee nor was she doing anything official. Her opinion doesn't reflect the views of ZOS.

imPDA · November 30

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It wasn't a ZOS stream. It was her own personal stream about disability in gaming. PvPers joined because she was using her husband's channel but it was clearly her stream that day and she was trying to talk about handicap options. That's the context typically missing from this take. Her husband is a ZOS employee and at the time he was doing unofficial streams where he played the game, sometimes did some pet charity thing, and occasionally answered questions about the game in a more candid way.

Anyway, she obviously shouldn't have snapped but she is not a ZOS employee nor was she doing anything official. Her opinion doesn't reflect the views of ZOS.

Even if it is not official position, it is still her husband's channel, which is intrinsically linked to his position at ZOS. By associating with that channel, she inherits a degree of responsibility, this is why it is used by PvP community as a joke against ZOS. This video was not viral if it was her own channel tho. I know exactly who they are and first time I saw I though "This video is going to be mentioned forever in any PvP discussion. What have you done?".