Vengeance ruleset for Dungeons/Etc.

ShutUpitsRed · 12:11AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Vengeance for AT LEAST trials should help identify and address these issues, no? Not understanding the pushback, I thought we all wanted better performance in ESO.

(inb4 connection and hardware, I have an absurdly powerful machine and connection, it ain't me)

Vengeance's goal is to lower the server calcs which is what is affecting perfomance. The calcs in trials are not even remotely putting the same strain on the servers.

Having Vengeance in PvE doesn't solve disconnects.

Having powerful hardware doesn't mean it functions correctlty.

The calcs in trials are not even remotely putting the same strain on the servers, and yet, the performance issues are there. PvP Vengeance threw almost everything out because apparently they needed to assess almost literally everything that could be contributing to the issue. What makes you so confident in your assessment when ZOS themselves has to go to such drastic lengths to figure out why the game doesn't work?

Besides, it would just be a test, what's wrong with that? We could even have a trial-based golden pursuit to encourage testing and get real feedback from players about how simplified trials play vs regular... personally, the performance issues in trials is a big part of what keeps me out of them. I think it would be a worthwhile test.

The difference is there are not hordes of players complaining about PvE performance. There is also no consistency to when there is a lag spike or fps drop in PvE. In Cyro you can set your watch by them.

Do I get a lag spike right in the middle of a trial trifecta run? Yes. It's rare but it does happen.
Do I get a lag spike everytime I go near anything under attack in Cyro? All the damned time.

One is a confluence of events, the other is a performance issue.

So, your response to my questions is to tell me that the issues I and others experience aren't real, or not a big enough issue to try to fix? Instead of addressing what I'm actually saying, you're just "nuh uh"ing at me. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a productive discussion. What would be wrong with a test to figure out how to fix performance in trials? Your experiences are not universal; plenty of people have these problems, and simply dismissing them as a "confluence of events" helps nobody. We all play the same game, and we all want it to be better, yes?

Gabriel_H · 12:18AM

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Vengeance for AT LEAST trials should help identify and address these issues, no? Not understanding the pushback, I thought we all wanted better performance in ESO.

(inb4 connection and hardware, I have an absurdly powerful machine and connection, it ain't me)

Vengeance's goal is to lower the server calcs which is what is affecting perfomance. The calcs in trials are not even remotely putting the same strain on the servers.

Having Vengeance in PvE doesn't solve disconnects.

Having powerful hardware doesn't mean it functions correctlty.

The calcs in trials are not even remotely putting the same strain on the servers, and yet, the performance issues are there. PvP Vengeance threw almost everything out because apparently they needed to assess almost literally everything that could be contributing to the issue. What makes you so confident in your assessment when ZOS themselves has to go to such drastic lengths to figure out why the game doesn't work?

Besides, it would just be a test, what's wrong with that? We could even have a trial-based golden pursuit to encourage testing and get real feedback from players about how simplified trials play vs regular... personally, the performance issues in trials is a big part of what keeps me out of them. I think it would be a worthwhile test.

The difference is there are not hordes of players complaining about PvE performance. There is also no consistency to when there is a lag spike or fps drop in PvE. In Cyro you can set your watch by them.

Do I get a lag spike right in the middle of a trial trifecta run? Yes. It's rare but it does happen.
Do I get a lag spike everytime I go near anything under attack in Cyro? All the damned time.

One is a confluence of events, the other is a performance issue.

So, your response to my questions is to tell me that the issues I and others experience aren't real, or not a big enough issue to try to fix? Instead of addressing what I'm actually saying, you're just "nuh uh"ing at me. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a productive discussion. What would be wrong with a test to figure out how to fix performance in trials? Your experiences are not universal; plenty of people have these problems, and simply dismissing them as a "confluence of events" helps nobody. We all play the same game, and we all want it to be better, yes?

No, i'm saying that you seem to be experiencing something most people do not. That doesn't mean you are wrong, but it does mean the problem for you is narrower in scope than "lets completely change the game".

"What would be wrong with a test to figure out how to fix performance in trials?" - Again, what performance issue? A disconnect is not a performance issue. Those would be spikes in the server load, drops in fps and sustained lag during fights.

twisttop138 · 12:20AM

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

It's funny how the PvE community pushes so hard for vengeance but when the same system is proposed for PvE zones they freak out and throw down all kinds of reasons why the template mode is no good or not needed.

I keep seeing this. Who is pushing hard? What is the pve community?

I stopped reading here. Come on now.

You can feel free to stop reading but the answer should obvious. There is no huge cabal of players trying to kill your game mode. People keep saying a large group of pve mains. How on earth could you possibly know this except that it fits the echo chamber narrative around this issue. We see it in real life too. Players didn't do this man. Your issue is with Zenimax.

Strawman arguments are so exhausting, no one is saying there's a secret cabal of anything, but it is pretty selfish and hypocritical for pve enjoyers aka lol the "pve community" to come in pushing content they know damn well they wont play longer than it takes to get their tier 3 rewards, as the last two tests have shown.

You wanna play ignorant like you don't know what people mean by PvE community by all means but its as silly as OP pretending to want vengeance mode for dungeons.

No one is saying every last pver wants vengeance, but pretending there's not a lot of them here pushing that narrative is pointless. Maybe you haven't been paying attention to it or turned a blind eye but your perception isn't reality.

How did we get to the place where this sounds like a cable news show? Groups of people pushing the narrative? The people who enjoyed vengeance (I didn't) said they enjoyed it. Now this is something that needs to be called out as a narrative? It sucks this is happening. I personally don't go into Cyro much these days but I have really awesome memories there. If they canned it, that would be terrible. I get that people don't trust Zos but I look at it from a cost benefit perspective. What does getting rid of GH cost them and what does it benefit them. It just doesn't add up. Getting rid of it costs them players and maybe money. There isn't a lot of benefit. Adding vengeance is going to happen but I don't think grey host will go anywhere because why wouldn't they have their cake and eat it too.

ShutUpitsRed · 12:23AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Vengeance for AT LEAST trials should help identify and address these issues, no? Not understanding the pushback, I thought we all wanted better performance in ESO.

(inb4 connection and hardware, I have an absurdly powerful machine and connection, it ain't me)

Vengeance's goal is to lower the server calcs which is what is affecting perfomance. The calcs in trials are not even remotely putting the same strain on the servers.

Having Vengeance in PvE doesn't solve disconnects.

Having powerful hardware doesn't mean it functions correctlty.

The calcs in trials are not even remotely putting the same strain on the servers, and yet, the performance issues are there. PvP Vengeance threw almost everything out because apparently they needed to assess almost literally everything that could be contributing to the issue. What makes you so confident in your assessment when ZOS themselves has to go to such drastic lengths to figure out why the game doesn't work?

Besides, it would just be a test, what's wrong with that? We could even have a trial-based golden pursuit to encourage testing and get real feedback from players about how simplified trials play vs regular... personally, the performance issues in trials is a big part of what keeps me out of them. I think it would be a worthwhile test.

The difference is there are not hordes of players complaining about PvE performance. There is also no consistency to when there is a lag spike or fps drop in PvE. In Cyro you can set your watch by them.

Do I get a lag spike right in the middle of a trial trifecta run? Yes. It's rare but it does happen.
Do I get a lag spike everytime I go near anything under attack in Cyro? All the damned time.

One is a confluence of events, the other is a performance issue.

So, your response to my questions is to tell me that the issues I and others experience aren't real, or not a big enough issue to try to fix? Instead of addressing what I'm actually saying, you're just "nuh uh"ing at me. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a productive discussion. What would be wrong with a test to figure out how to fix performance in trials? Your experiences are not universal; plenty of people have these problems, and simply dismissing them as a "confluence of events" helps nobody. We all play the same game, and we all want it to be better, yes?

No, i'm saying that you seem to be experiencing something most people do not. That doesn't mean you are wrong, but it does mean the problem for you is narrower in scope than "lets completely change the game".

"What would be wrong with a test to figure out how to fix performance in trials?" - Again, what performance issue? A disconnect is not a performance issue. Those would be spikes in the server load, drops in fps and sustained lag during fights.

I don't have performance issues in Cyrodiil to nearly the same degree as I see reported, but I don't go around telling people their experiences are invalid just because I don't experience the same, or that I don't see enough complaining about it. That would be absurd. Again, you're just denying the issue exists, which is not helpful. A disconnect can be a part of a performance issue; I did not feel the need to list out the exacts of what I meant by "performance issues" regarding trials, as I assumed it would be easily inferred to mean lag and fps that looks like a slideshow when people start beaming. If you are unwilling to answer a basic question without resorting to denying the existence of the issue at hand, I don't think this conversation is going anywhere productive. Have a good one.

BardokRedSnow · 12:43AM

twisttop138 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

It's funny how the PvE community pushes so hard for vengeance but when the same system is proposed for PvE zones they freak out and throw down all kinds of reasons why the template mode is no good or not needed.

I keep seeing this. Who is pushing hard? What is the pve community?

I stopped reading here. Come on now.

You can feel free to stop reading but the answer should obvious. There is no huge cabal of players trying to kill your game mode. People keep saying a large group of pve mains. How on earth could you possibly know this except that it fits the echo chamber narrative around this issue. We see it in real life too. Players didn't do this man. Your issue is with Zenimax.

Strawman arguments are so exhausting, no one is saying there's a secret cabal of anything, but it is pretty selfish and hypocritical for pve enjoyers aka lol the "pve community" to come in pushing content they know damn well they wont play longer than it takes to get their tier 3 rewards, as the last two tests have shown.

You wanna play ignorant like you don't know what people mean by PvE community by all means but its as silly as OP pretending to want vengeance mode for dungeons.

No one is saying every last pver wants vengeance, but pretending there's not a lot of them here pushing that narrative is pointless. Maybe you haven't been paying attention to it or turned a blind eye but your perception isn't reality.

How did we get to the place where this sounds like a cable news show? Groups of people pushing the narrative? The people who enjoyed vengeance (I didn't) said they enjoyed it. Now this is something that needs to be called out as a narrative? It sucks this is happening. I personally don't go into Cyro much these days but I have really awesome memories there. If they canned it, that would be terrible. I get that people don't trust Zos but I look at it from a cost benefit perspective. What does getting rid of GH cost them and what does it benefit them. It just doesn't add up. Getting rid of it costs them players and maybe money. There isn't a lot of benefit. Adding vengeance is going to happen but I don't think grey host will go anywhere because why wouldn't they have their cake and eat it too.

It does when you have those people as well as salty pvpers calling for the removal of pvp or greyhost entirely. I don't really care about semantics arguments, the sentiment is obviously there or there wouldn't be pvpers like myself debating over any of this in the first place. OP's methods may be misguided but his desire to make pvers see how ridiculous these tests being forced on us in the first place so they can enjoy PvP for a bit wasn't born from nowhere.

The other guy said it better than me, @tomofhyrule , basically there's so little faith in what Zos says and such high suspicion because one minute they're calling it tests, and so many here said it was just a conspiracy that vengeance was gonna be made permanent, and now they're saying it will be one way or another, and Greyhost's existence while leaning yes, it will continue to exist, isn't 100 percent.

Sorry but combine that with comments about how Cyro is broken and needs to go, people are gonna see that and not be happy.

Also I hate to be that guy but you used "narrative" first between you and I lol. "Echo chamber narrative".

twisttop138 · 1:05AM

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

It's funny how the PvE community pushes so hard for vengeance but when the same system is proposed for PvE zones they freak out and throw down all kinds of reasons why the template mode is no good or not needed.

I keep seeing this. Who is pushing hard? What is the pve community?

I stopped reading here. Come on now.

You can feel free to stop reading but the answer should obvious. There is no huge cabal of players trying to kill your game mode. People keep saying a large group of pve mains. How on earth could you possibly know this except that it fits the echo chamber narrative around this issue. We see it in real life too. Players didn't do this man. Your issue is with Zenimax.

Strawman arguments are so exhausting, no one is saying there's a secret cabal of anything, but it is pretty selfish and hypocritical for pve enjoyers aka lol the "pve community" to come in pushing content they know damn well they wont play longer than it takes to get their tier 3 rewards, as the last two tests have shown.

You wanna play ignorant like you don't know what people mean by PvE community by all means but its as silly as OP pretending to want vengeance mode for dungeons.

No one is saying every last pver wants vengeance, but pretending there's not a lot of them here pushing that narrative is pointless. Maybe you haven't been paying attention to it or turned a blind eye but your perception isn't reality.

How did we get to the place where this sounds like a cable news show? Groups of people pushing the narrative? The people who enjoyed vengeance (I didn't) said they enjoyed it. Now this is something that needs to be called out as a narrative? It sucks this is happening. I personally don't go into Cyro much these days but I have really awesome memories there. If they canned it, that would be terrible. I get that people don't trust Zos but I look at it from a cost benefit perspective. What does getting rid of GH cost them and what does it benefit them. It just doesn't add up. Getting rid of it costs them players and maybe money. There isn't a lot of benefit. Adding vengeance is going to happen but I don't think grey host will go anywhere because why wouldn't they have their cake and eat it too.

It does when you have those people as well as salty pvpers calling for the removal of pvp or greyhost entirely. I don't really care about semantics arguments, the sentiment is obviously there or there wouldn't be pvpers like myself debating over any of this in the first place. OP's methods may be misguided but his desire to make pvers see how ridiculous these tests being forced on us in the first place so they can enjoy PvP for a bit wasn't born from nowhere.

The other guy said it better than me, @tomofhyrule , basically there's so little faith in what Zos says and such high suspicion because one minute they're calling it tests, and so many here said it was just a conspiracy that vengeance was gonna be made permanent, and now they're saying it will be one way or another, and Greyhost's existence while leaning yes, it will continue to exist, isn't 100 percent.

Sorry but combine that with comments about how Cyro is broken and needs to go, people are gonna see that and not be happy.

Also I hate to be that guy but you used "narrative" first between you and I lol. "Echo chamber narrative".

Damn. You got me there, I did use it first. That's why you're the pvper lol. Look brother, it sucks. And of course we have no faith in Zos. Look at everything this year, not just this. I have no faith in next year at all, not just pvp. Just like you guys, it's looking like there won't be room for a trial in this new season meta. Maybe less dungeons. God knows. We're all worried and I guess I'm getting worked up at all of us fighting each other and I get ops point but this thread is wild. It does nothing to bring the point to Zos.

SneaK · 1:07AM

@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.

edward_frigidhands · 2:03AM

SneaK wrote: »

@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.

A very strong and very brave response. You are so right bro. I have to applaud how well you have provided your arguments in this thread and not been afraid or backed down from augmenting this discussion with your pve performance concerns and challenges.

SneaK · 2:15AM

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.

A very strong and very brave response. You are so right bro. I have to applaud how well you have provided your arguments in this thread and not been afraid or backed down from augmenting this discussion with your pve performance concerns and challenges.

Hold the line Sir @edward_frigidhands

We fight and die here.

edward_frigidhands · 2:43AM

SneaK wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.

A very strong and very brave response. You are so right bro. I have to applaud how well you have provided your arguments in this thread and not been afraid or backed down from augmenting this discussion with your pve performance concerns and challenges.

Hold the line Sir @edward_frigidhands

We fight and die here.

For Tamriel. And server performance.

Gabriel_H · 3:37AM

SneaK wrote: »

@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.

"Keep" - You haven't answered one in any level of detail that backs up your point.

Gabriel_H · 3:37AM

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.

A very strong and very brave response. You are so right bro. I have to applaud how well you have provided your arguments in this thread and not been afraid or backed down from augmenting this discussion with your pve performance concerns and challenges.

Dodging questions isn't brave. It's borderline trolling at this point.

Gabriel_H · 3:39AM

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

I don't have performance issues in Cyrodiil to nearly the same degree as I see reported

And there in a nutshell is the whole point - that is the reverse for most players. That isn't performance, something else is going on. Yet, you continue to refuse that as a possibility.

fizzybeef · 3:48AM

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

I've had performance issues in almost every trial I've played and crashed out of a couple, especially the newer ones. People are comparing this to PvP, which I guess is fair, but I don't really think they're equivalent. I've definitely had performance issues in Gray Host before, and have been disconnected a couple times too, but per-capita have far more issues in trials. Also, disconnecting or having performance issues is a MUCH bigger problem in trials- I've had groups wipe because of one DC or a stuttered mechanic, which borks the whole run. In Cyrodiil, when performance is bad, it's just a couple extra deaths or an inconvenience to re-queue. It's Cyrodiil; you die and you're inconvenienced all the time, and the only "punishment" is your own frustration (where in PvE, you lose your score, rewards, etc). The experience of the whole team is seldom ruined when there's PvP performance issues, not that they're not bad, but they're hardly as experience-breaking and frustrating as in PvE.

Vengeance for AT LEAST trials should help identify and address these issues, no? Not understanding the pushback, I thought we all wanted better performance in ESO.

(inb4 connection and hardware, I have an absurdly powerful machine and connection, it ain't me)

I think in trials and dungeons we should have vengeance too, since i experience the same there too

SneaK · 4:03AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.

"Keep" - You haven't answered one in any level of detail that backs up your point.

You have all but asked for my social and IP address. I don’t intend to stay on the line for 8 hours with an IT person asking questions like the answers aren’t obvious. I play on a console, I do not care nor will I ever about overclocking my gigagrams and having rbg keychains.

Here you go.

Where does this lag occur for you? PvE
What are your graphic settings? Basic
What is your ISP like? Google *** Media
How often does this occur? A lot
How big are the lag spikes? Big
How long do the lag spikes last? Unusually long

Here a series of questions for you:
Have you ever heard of the silent majority?
Have you ever heard of the loud minority?
Have you ever thought you were apart of the latter?

And back on topic cause you aren’t solving a technical issue here. All you’ve done despite multiple people share the same feedback as I have, is try to invalidate our feedback. You aren’t contributing anything other than an elitist mentality that your experience somehow supersedes anyone else’s. MY lag is more consistent in PvE than anywhere else. That’s it. You don’t have to “believe” me. I’m not asking for you to come cable tech my house either.