licenturion wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

On PS EU while the last vengeance (and this is no joke) like 30 people participated.
As soon it was gone the server was populated, leaderboard full and for a short time even 3 bars each

All joking aside, even though I am pro-Vengeance, I do agree with the other side too and agree that they should leave Greyhost alone and it keep it as an option for players who like playing GH. That way everyone is happy and can play their own way. They should not take it away and I agree with those who say this. In fact, it would have been better that they wrote something like 'We are fully committed in keeping GH also available in the future'. That one sentence could have made this announcement being received a lot better.

Agreeing on everything being said here tho

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Cyrodiil needs to change. It does not work. ZOS explained why it doesn't (The reason being something some of us have been shouting about for years).

Unless quantum computing becomes a thing anytime soon, there is no solution to the performance except to cut player numbers in Cyro even further or cut the complexity of the calculations from skills.

Honestly, I don't think it is a computing issue as much as it is:

1. servers and/or engine are outdated and both need to be updated;

2. we have a mix-mash of people on next-gen consoles vs. 1st gen consoles, and in order to progress, they're absolutely going to have to drop support for 1st gen consoles, which can be a source of data bottlenecking; and

3. May be tied in to # 1, but because players seem to be consolidating, I suspect that some of the performance issues are caused by players from the other side of the world connecting to the same server. What I mean is players from EU server playing on XBOX NA server (and I'm assuming vice - versa) is forcing players to play together with various band-width and connectivity that is not really helped by the fact that your connecting with players on the other side of the planet....

I'm sure there are other issues, but these seem like they are likely reasonable causes for the existing performance issues. Because on some nights, I can be in a HUGE fight with no connectivity issues whatsoever, and the next night, I'll have massive issues in the same-sized fight, and the only thing I can come up with is that if there are players on the other side (or even my own) either lag switching (possible, but unlikely), that they just have poor connectivity due to their distance from the home server (much more plausible), or they're using out-dated consoles which are causing data bottlenecking (also plausible, although I used to play on an old-gen console and know that the game becomes unplayable with a certain amount of activity on the screen and causes you to crash).

Just my 2 cents.

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Only have seen people , me included WHITNESSED that vengeance is less played and populated then GH.

The player cap on Live is 360, and on Vengeance it's 900. 1 Bar on Vengeance is roughly the same as 3 bars on Live.

ZOS have posted graphs of the player numbers.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Only have seen people , me included WHITNESSED that vengeance is less played and populated then GH.

The player cap on Live is 360, and on Vengeance it's 900. 1 Bar on Vengeance is roughly the same as 3 bars on Live.

ZOS have posted graphs of the player numbers.

Respectfully and if you would be a pvp player you would acknowledge that; You can tell if there are 360 people running arround in cyrodiil, even in Vengeance

There are indicators for activity aside of the bars let me sum them up for you:

- Combat signs (being found on the map, looking like crossed swords, they have different sizes wich show if its a small or big battle)
- a active zone chat, as more people are online, as more chatty it is
- Objectives are getting targeted (In Cyrodiil the objective is to capture and hold keeps and outposts or ressources to gain points for the scoreboard, there are temples wich open by holding certain keeps, to capture and hold the name giving elderscrolls, what gives extra points and buffs)
- map flipping, with this it‘s meaned that the names keeps, outposts or ressources have the colour on the map of the alliance who have captured and are holding them.
If these stay stale in the same colour, it‘s a indicator nothing is going on, meaning nobody is online.
- last but not least the cyrodiil artifact spawning and not being picked up, well these can happen for certain reasons but its also one, when nobody is online to do it.


So unfortunatily, i dont take that statement quoted above to serious but good fun with graphs and numbers.

I heared the graphs showing the whiting wall progress were also well going.
Oh wait

Theignson wrote: »

Many of the people complaining bitterly about Vengeance run in ball or small man groups, and they found out that in Vengeance they died just like pugs. Without Crutch of Agony and Vapid death, plus 10 ultis etc etc in subclassed builds, they couldn't instantly round up a bunch of people and kill them, then do it again 8 seconds later for hours on end.
Without 25,000 hp heals per second, 12,000 shield per second, they found out they had no advantage as a group and any 12 pugs could kill them.

The fact is that Cyrodil has died a slow death largely due to the enormously over powered groups. ZOS has lost sight of game balance.

The math is something like this: a pug group generally has only a small bonus as a group, so 12 people = approximately a strength of n=12.This is an additive increase per player.
However, with the above changes to the game, ball groups power goes at least multiplicative and, arguably, exponentially.

So now 2 players in a group can have a strength of 2(2) = 4. A six man can have 6(2) = a power of 36, This is why you see well structured 6 man groups running around with dozens of players seemingly helpless. Of course with a 12 man 12(2) = 144, they are virtually immortal. With heals of shields they have something like 37,000 hp heals per second for the whole group.

Now an exponential claim may be overstating the group advantage as you scale up. It may only be multiplicative, eg (players) (x) where X is probably 4-5. So in the scenario some 12 man groups are as strong as 50-60 pugs.

I am all for build variety and subclassing. But group strength should not be multiplicative or exponential. It should be additive, ie a group, due to coordinated movement and strategy, as an advantage over a similar number of pugs. So a well run ball group should have 12+n, eg advantage,
This is actually the case in Vengeance and some of the old school groups with skill had a noticeable , but not hugely overpowered advantage.
Also skilled players like @React ran up 110 kills and zero deaths based on skill. They didnt like it because the skill cap was low, and a competent player could defend against them, but skill actually did play some role. If you add back subclassing and sets that boost the individual (not group in pvp) the skill cap could rise.

I am so sick , especially in lower pop later at night, of ball groups running around using Proc of agony every 8 seconds for hours at time. Every single group does this, (now even worse with broken Warden charm-- which they all use, of course). This is dead, broken, stale, boring game play that has now been the meta for at least 2 years, an eternity. Something needs to change.

I agree that ball groups are a problem in Cyrodiil, no question about that. But the solution is not a new, stripped to the bone game mode. The solution is to tweak systems the ball groups are abusing so that they don't empower ball groups so strongly. We've been posting what that solution is for years only to be ignored. Specifically the problem is too many HoT's and free pull sets. So fix those two things and see how things look. No need to invent a whole new game mode. That's how we know ZOS hasn't been forthright about their intentions with vengeance.

Orbital78 wrote: »

Being able to join vengeance for large battles without a buggy hour+ queue will be glorious (hopefully). It will take stress off Greyhost, which I think will still be there. It should be a win/win.

ZOS won't run two different versions of Cyrodiil simultaneously. Eventually it will be live or vengeance, not both.

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Only have seen people , me included WHITNESSED that vengeance is less played and populated then GH.

The player cap on Live is 360, and on Vengeance it's 900. 1 Bar on Vengeance is roughly the same as 3 bars on Live.

ZOS have posted graphs of the player numbers.

No.

The player caps in live is 240 total, 80/faction. And ZOS never told us what the cap was for vengeance, and it sure seems like it's been a dynamic player cap to those of us who played it. (ZOS has changed the player cap for vengeance during the "test" is what I mean)

ZOS literally told us in Jess’s post yesterday that the cap is 360 in GH and 900 in Vengeance.

frogthroat wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The solution is to tweak systems the ball groups are abusing so that they don't empower ball groups so strongly.

That would require that the devs understand the ball group dynamic. That would require time to play, calculate and perhaps even interview ball groups. Microsoft had mass layoffs. I don't think they have manpower, time (and perhaps skill) to fully understand what makes ball groups invincible.

JustLovely wrote: »

No need to invent a whole new game mode. That's how we know ZOS hasn't been forthright about their intentions with vengeance.

Vengeance was designed to be a test environment. When no solution was found, they made the test environment the norm.

It's like if you troubleshoot your Windows and everything works in simplified mode, but breaks down in normal boot, and you decide to boot to the simplified mode as the "solution".

You're not understanding what ZOS' intentions with vengeance mode has been since it's creation. Look at what they do, not what they say if you want to understand what's going on.

Theignson wrote: »

Also skilled players like @React ran up 110 kills and zero deaths based on skill. They didnt like it because the skill cap was low, and a competent player could defend against them, but skill actually did play some role. If you add back subclassing and sets that boost the individual (not group in pvp) the skill cap could rise.

I totally agree with the whole ballgroups/pull sets/etc sentiments you've expressed. But I just want to point out that my problems with vengeance aren't just that "competent players can defend against me". In the current iteration of vengeance, healing is simply flat out stronger than damage. When cross healing comes into the mix, you do not need to be a "competent player" to survive. I remember the exact fight during my vengeance stream that prompted these observations - I had 3 completely inept players isolated away from any keeps. It was very clear while fighting them that they had little to no PVP experience whatsoever - they were hardly even hitting me. They were able to effortlessly and thoughtlessly survive though, for 15+ minutes by doing nothing but casting heals - and not in any coordinated or intentional manner.

This is a problem. I know some people will say "oh but there is 3 of them and one of you. How can you expect to win?". My answer is the skill gap. This has always existed in ESO PVP, and is what enables outnumbered gameplay. In the current balance of vengeance, the skill ceiling is lowered dramatically and the skill floor is brought up similarly. This results in situations like the one above, where the skill gap is made meaningless. As a veteran player, it feels terrible to have all of your time and dedication be artificially made meaningless through balance like this.

I think there are some merits to vengeance. Lowering the entry barrier to PVP is a good idea. The lack of proc sets and a move towards a stat-based environment is a good choice. But the unwillingness of the studio to do ANY balancing whatsoever throughout all of the tests makes me VERY nervous about what the balance will be like when this arrives as a permanent feature. Further, I think the longevity of the environment is in serious jeopardy with the lack of customization available. Buildcraft and game knowledge are huge parts of why people have continued to play ESO PVP all these years, and vengeance completely does away with these things.

Ultimately, I'm not sure how much any of this matters at this point. On PC NA, it is my opinion that the live version of cyrodiil is no longer worth playing as a solo PVP player. The balance is horrendous, the buildcraft has become disgustingly homogenized as a result of subclassing, and the population is so low that you'll only ever see the exact same small scales/ballgroups every single night in PVP with no other campaign getting any bars anymore.

With that in mind, while I'm not a supporter of vengeance as it currently stands, I don't believe there is anything of value to be lost anymore. If they make these changes and it ends up getting the balance adjustments needed while somehow drawing in new players to PVP - that is great. If the new "mid size" zone actually gets released and offers a live-balance version of PVP that is fresh, great. If all of this fails and we're left with even less population - so be it.

frogthroat wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The solution is to tweak systems the ball groups are abusing so that they don't empower ball groups so strongly.

That would require that the devs understand the ball group dynamic. That would require time to play, calculate and perhaps even interview ball groups. Microsoft had mass layoffs. I don't think they have manpower, time (and perhaps skill) to fully understand what makes ball groups invincible.

[.

Doesnt take much to understand a headset and a mic and some organisation makes ball groups stronger then pugs

I actually quite enjoyed Vengeance but I feel like it would kill the game mode to get rid of Grey Host entirely. I don't even feel that should be on the table.

JustLovely wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Only have seen people , me included WHITNESSED that vengeance is less played and populated then GH.

The player cap on Live is 360, and on Vengeance it's 900. 1 Bar on Vengeance is roughly the same as 3 bars on Live.

ZOS have posted graphs of the player numbers.

No.

The player caps in live is 240 total, 80/faction. And ZOS never told us what the cap was for vengeance, and it sure seems like it's been a dynamic player cap to those of us who played it. (ZOS has changed the player cap for vengeance during the "test" is what I mean)

ZOS literally told us in Jess’s post yesterday that the cap is 360 in GH and 900 in Vengeance.

Did you happen to notice that ZOS blurred out the player numbers axis on those graphs?

Those of us who've played during these "tests" know that at no time did the player population reach anywhere near 900 players...unless they are combining stats from both PC/NA and PC/EU and all the PS and X box player numbers into one graph. The player population on the last iteration of vengeance was lower than it is on normal live.

Be careful, aparently these are conspiracy theories.
Because the graph!!

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Only have seen people , me included WHITNESSED that vengeance is less played and populated then GH.

The player cap on Live is 360, and on Vengeance it's 900. 1 Bar on Vengeance is roughly the same as 3 bars on Live.

ZOS have posted graphs of the player numbers.

Respectfully and if you would be a pvp player you would acknowledge that; You can tell if there are 360 people running arround in cyrodiil, even in Vengeance

There are indicators for activity aside of the bars let me sum them up for you:

- Combat signs (being found on the map, looking like crossed swords, they have different sizes wich show if its a small or big battle)
- a active zone chat, as more people are online, as more chatty it is
- Objectives are getting targeted (In Cyrodiil the objective is to capture and hold keeps and outposts or ressources to gain points for the scoreboard, there are temples wich open by holding certain keeps, to capture and hold the name giving elderscrolls, what gives extra points and buffs)
- map flipping, with this it‘s meaned that the names keeps, outposts or ressources have the colour on the map of the alliance who have captured and are holding them.
If these stay stale in the same colour, it‘s a indicator nothing is going on, meaning nobody is online.
- last but not least the cyrodiil artifact spawning and not being picked up, well these can happen for certain reasons but its also one, when nobody is online to do it.


So unfortunatily, i dont take that statement quoted above to serious but good fun with graphs and numbers.

I heared the graphs showing the whiting wall progress were also well going.
Oh wait

[snip]

fizzybeef wrote: »

[

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Only have seen people , me included WHITNESSED that vengeance is less played and populated then GH.

The player cap on Live is 360, and on Vengeance it's 900. 1 Bar on Vengeance is roughly the same as 3 bars on Live.

ZOS have posted graphs of the player numbers.

Respectfully and if you would be a pvp player you would acknowledge that; You can tell if there are 360 people running arround in cyrodiil, even in Vengeance

There are indicators for activity aside of the bars let me sum them up for you:

- Combat signs (being found on the map, looking like crossed swords, they have different sizes wich show if its a small or big battle)
- a active zone chat, as more people are online, as more chatty it is
- Objectives are getting targeted (In Cyrodiil the objective is to capture and hold keeps and outposts or ressources to gain points for the scoreboard, there are temples wich open by holding certain keeps, to capture and hold the name giving elderscrolls, what gives extra points and buffs)
- map flipping, with this it‘s meaned that the names keeps, outposts or ressources have the colour on the map of the alliance who have captured and are holding them.
If these stay stale in the same colour, it‘s a indicator nothing is going on, meaning nobody is online.
- last but not least the cyrodiil artifact spawning and not being picked up, well these can happen for certain reasons but its also one, when nobody is online to do it.


So unfortunatily, i dont take that statement quoted above to serious but good fun with graphs and numbers.

I heared the graphs showing the whiting wall progress were also well going.
Oh wait

[snip]

[snip]

[edited to remove quote]

licenturion wrote: »

Even though the scope is a lot bigger, Cyro is the same. Vengeance brings more balance and better experiences for the majority of players. The thing you describe being outnumbered 1 against 3. You sound very frustrated because you think you ‘earned the easy kill’. Those other group of 3 people you faced probably still remember that fight too. Remember that amazing night in Vengeance were we had that amazing fight with that guy for 15 minutes? We lost but, but we really tried and it was exciting. Imagine what they all answered when they got the survey from ZOS. Pretty sure they will try Vengeance again.

The majority of which players, exactly? As evidenced by the population throughout the most recent iteration, when the juiced up incentives of golden pursuits, endeavors, and double AP aren't present to entice these casual players into vengeance, they simply do not go there. Simultaneously, the majority of veterans seem to not welcome the environment, and even those that favor it nearly unanimously agree that the balance within the most recent iterations is unacceptable and not something they'll play without significant adjustments. Without being able to attract both sides of the population, vengeance is doomed to fail.

As I said at the end of my post, I can see the merits of the environment. It harkens back to a time where the outcome of fights was determined by skillful ability usage, game knowledge, resource management, movement, etc rather than build advantage. But in doing so it also removes the tools needed for skill expression (movement speed, burst damage, snare immunities) while overly empowering those needed for survival, particularly in group settings. This isn't something that is going to be healthy long term, there is no aspirational skill ceiling for players to strive for when the balance is like this. I'm sure some people will enjoy hopping on and running in the middle of a 50 man group steamrolling keeps while not interacting with the combat system in the slightest, but I don't even think that can be considered "PVP" in any meaningful way at that point.

But as I mentioned at the end of my post, I'm prepared for scenario one to enter the game and for us to see the real outcome of both environments running side by side. I don't think there is anything of value to be lost anymore with current population numbers and live server balance. I suppose we'll find out who was right sometime next year.

JustLovely wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Many of the people complaining bitterly about Vengeance run in ball or small man groups, and they found out that in Vengeance they died just like pugs. Without Crutch of Agony and Vapid death, plus 10 ultis etc etc in subclassed builds, they couldn't instantly round up a bunch of people and kill them, then do it again 8 seconds later for hours on end.
Without 25,000 hp heals per second, 12,000 shield per second, they found out they had no advantage as a group and any 12 pugs could kill them.

The fact is that Cyrodil has died a slow death largely due to the enormously over powered groups. ZOS has lost sight of game balance.

The math is something like this: a pug group generally has only a small bonus as a group, so 12 people = approximately a strength of n=12.This is an additive increase per player.
However, with the above changes to the game, ball groups power goes at least multiplicative and, arguably, exponentially.

So now 2 players in a group can have a strength of 2(2) = 4. A six man can have 6(2) = a power of 36, This is why you see well structured 6 man groups running around with dozens of players seemingly helpless. Of course with a 12 man 12(2) = 144, they are virtually immortal. With heals of shields they have something like 37,000 hp heals per second for the whole group.

Now an exponential claim may be overstating the group advantage as you scale up. It may only be multiplicative, eg (players) (x) where X is probably 4-5. So in the scenario some 12 man groups are as strong as 50-60 pugs.

I am all for build variety and subclassing. But group strength should not be multiplicative or exponential. It should be additive, ie a group, due to coordinated movement and strategy, as an advantage over a similar number of pugs. So a well run ball group should have 12+n, eg advantage,
This is actually the case in Vengeance and some of the old school groups with skill had a noticeable , but not hugely overpowered advantage.
Also skilled players like @React ran up 110 kills and zero deaths based on skill. They didnt like it because the skill cap was low, and a competent player could defend against them, but skill actually did play some role. If you add back subclassing and sets that boost the individual (not group in pvp) the skill cap could rise.

I am so sick , especially in lower pop later at night, of ball groups running around using Proc of agony every 8 seconds for hours at time. Every single group does this, (now even worse with broken Warden charm-- which they all use, of course). This is dead, broken, stale, boring game play that has now been the meta for at least 2 years, an eternity. Something needs to change.

I agree that ball groups are a problem in Cyrodiil, no question about that. But the solution is not a new, stripped to the bone game mode. The solution is to tweak systems the ball groups are abusing so that they don't empower ball groups so strongly. We've been posting what that solution is for years only to be ignored. Specifically the problem is too many HoT's and free pull sets. So fix those two things and see how things look. No need to invent a whole new game mode. That's how we know ZOS hasn't been forthright about their intentions with vengeance.

I agree 100%. I think Zerodil could be hugely improved with just a few ez changes:
1) RoA: can only cast every 30 seconds, causes cc immunity, 8m range.
2) VD: only procs for solo players. Back to high risk high reward
3) warden charm: delete it and find something else
4) group heals only apply to 3 players, same with shields
5) you can only have two stacked HOTS : one from yourself and one from another player

I would love playing under these conditions. True ball groups could still 12v1 but the risk reward ratio would be improved