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Subclassing from the point of view of a Longtime RPG enjoyer
HowlKimchi
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The release of subclassing had me cautiously optimistic because I enjoy theorycrafting builds in other RPGs like tabletop DnD and Final Fantasy Tactics. The problem is that the way ESO implemented it feels [snip] and uninspiring.
In actual tabletop DnD play, multiclassing is what they call the feature similar to ESO's subclassing. It was rarely the optimal way to deal the most damage, aside from a few infamous builds that are exceptions rather than the norm. Multiclassing is mainly a tradeoff to grab something your class archetype does not usually get. For example, a rogue might take one level of wizard for utility spells. A sorcerer might take one level of fighter for access to armor and shields. In both cases, they delay their core progression. The rogue loses sneak attack power to become more flexible. The sorcerer delays stronger spells to become sturdier.
IMO this is the ideal way to implement multiclassing or subclassing. It should provide meaningful tradeoffs. That is harder to pull off in a video game, so kudos to ESO for "attempting" (in quotations because is it really an attempt or just a way to add "content" easily) it. but unfortunately, (1) there is no meaningful tradeoff in the current system and (2) skill balancing sucks so having access to all class skills leaves weaker class lines in the dust. There is no opportunity cost outside personal preference or RP. You simply grab the strongest DPS combination and you are done. Your class no longer feels like a class an archetypes stop existing. There is no incentive to commit to identity or theme. Only raw numbers matter.
There needs to be a real tradeoff so that multiclassing becomes a sidegrade and not a free upgrade but how do you even do it in a game where there are barely any mechanics to fights? In PVE, there is no need to be mobile or to have utility. You dont need bulkiness since heals can bring you from 1 to 100 in 1 click. You dont even have to manage resources these days. Meanwhile in PVP, subclassing has birthed some of the most toxic and uninteractive builds ever created.
It is also not enough to say that players can simply refuse to multiclass if they want to stay pure. That only pushes class fantasy players into feeling punished because they know they are intentionally gimping themselves in a multiplayer environment. Even if all content is technically doable, it still creates a bad taste when the game does not reward commitment to your archetype.
Subclassing has killed the game for me. It feels like they just needed to add something new for the expansion and went with the easiest idea possible. Class fantasy is gone.
[edited for bashing]
Edited by ZOS_Icy on November 25, 2025 2:19PM In actual tabletop DnD play, multiclassing is what they call the feature similar to ESO's subclassing. It was rarely the optimal way to deal the most damage, aside from a few infamous builds that are exceptions rather than the norm. Multiclassing is mainly a tradeoff to grab something your class archetype does not usually get. For example, a rogue might take one level of wizard for utility spells. A sorcerer might take one level of fighter for access to armor and shields. In both cases, they delay their core progression. The rogue loses sneak attack power to become more flexible. The sorcerer delays stronger spells to become sturdier.
IMO this is the ideal way to implement multiclassing or subclassing. It should provide meaningful tradeoffs. That is harder to pull off in a video game, so kudos to ESO for "attempting" (in quotations because is it really an attempt or just a way to add "content" easily) it. but unfortunately, (1) there is no meaningful tradeoff in the current system and (2) skill balancing sucks so having access to all class skills leaves weaker class lines in the dust. There is no opportunity cost outside personal preference or RP. You simply grab the strongest DPS combination and you are done. Your class no longer feels like a class an archetypes stop existing. There is no incentive to commit to identity or theme. Only raw numbers matter.
There needs to be a real tradeoff so that multiclassing becomes a sidegrade and not a free upgrade but how do you even do it in a game where there are barely any mechanics to fights? In PVE, there is no need to be mobile or to have utility. You dont need bulkiness since heals can bring you from 1 to 100 in 1 click. You dont even have to manage resources these days. Meanwhile in PVP, subclassing has birthed some of the most toxic and uninteractive builds ever created.
It is also not enough to say that players can simply refuse to multiclass if they want to stay pure. That only pushes class fantasy players into feeling punished because they know they are intentionally gimping themselves in a multiplayer environment. Even if all content is technically doable, it still creates a bad taste when the game does not reward commitment to your archetype.
Subclassing has killed the game for me. It feels like they just needed to add something new for the expansion and went with the easiest idea possible. Class fantasy is gone.
[edited for bashing]
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moderatelyfatman✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I believe a fair number of MMOs have multiclassing but these were features that were planned out at the beginning and carefully balanced before going into the live game.
How not to do it is to make it a patch update, throw it on the community despite many experienced players voicing caution and then refuse to do any real follow up to make it work properly when it destroyed what was left of game balance.Edited by moderatelyfatman on November 24, 2025 1:41PM9 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭moderatelyfatman wrote: »I believe a fair number of MMOs have multiclassing but these were features that were planned out at the beginning and carefully balanced before going into the live game.
How not to do it is to make it a patch update, throw it on the community despite many experienced players voicing caution and then refuse to do any real follow up to make it work properly when it destroyed what was left of game balance.
This is EXACTLY the problem with subclassing and why it was such a bad idea for ESO IMO. The game was simply not built for it from the start. So to unleash it the way they did not only feels [snip] and shortsighted, but it is even more troubling for this reason: to me, it says that the Devs have no long-term vision for this game. Because prior to the update that gave us subclassing, we got class-specific armor sets from IA (a concept which now seems to have been abandoned), and we got class master scripts with scribing. In other words, it appeared they were going to take steps towards emphasizing classes rather than undermining them. And then they pull a 180 with subclassing. Like, WTH?! How does this mess of a subclassing system jive with those previous steps?
This isn't the kind of thing that is good for the long-term life/health of the game because when the Devs lose vision and lose sight of what they're making, they just start throwing "stuff" out there to make a quick buck without any thoughts as to how it impacts the long-term health of their game. Worse than that, they've totally ignored their player base who was telling them that all the negative things that would come with subclassing if it was unleashed in the way that it was!
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on November 25, 2025 2:24PM5 -
Vaqual✭✭✭✭✭
✭The somewhat obvious fix for this situation is to introduce more direct, limited and impactful synergy pairs between related class lines (Versatility vs Specialization). More things like Strike from the Shadows + Cloak. Replace dead and redundant passives with interactions that are limited to certain combos and the narrow meta issues turn into added depth for build crafting.
It won't singlehandedly replace the complete lack of balancing though.1 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭More or less sums up my thoughts about subclassing, it indeed diminished the will to continue with the game also.3 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭The implementation was horrific for 2 reasons:
1) Base classes are implemented differently than DLC classes. Mixed role lines vs distinct lines. That makes the system already inherantly imbalanced
2) No mechanisms to balance sub-classed builds without nerfing pure class builds
As I suggested recently, a way to fix both of those problems would be to introduce another system - actual sub-classing aka role specialization. You could then perform any tweaks there. The penalty for subclassing would be to lose the opportunity to specialize through the system. Have something like the CP bar where you equip slots, but every other class line you take reduces the number of useable slots.
If sub-classing stays, there is no other way to achieve balance without complete class reworks, which will pretty much kill the game imo.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The solution to this seems very obvious and has been advanced by many over the last several months:
1. A 5th and 6th very strong class passives that only activate when stacking base class lines (w/ 2 lines and 3 lines, respectively).
AND/OR
2. Additional scaling power for base class abilities when stacking base class lines (something like +10-25% for class skills).
Which makes roleplaying sense, as a master, say, Necromancer, with all 3 class lines selected, would intuitively be better at Necromancer tasks than a dilettante who only selects Grave Lord, for example.
Such a scheme also has the benefit of being relatively low-effort to implement since it fits into existing mechanical frameworks.4