Praise to ZOS for the Last Solstice Zone Story Quest ("The Final Dark")

LonePirate · November 15

The last story quest in the Solstice zone - "The Final Dark" - was the most enjoyable zone story ending quest since perhaps the Orsinium DLC if not the original main story end quest against Molag Bal. The gameplay mechanics and the fights in the quest were fun and very entertaining. Plus, the quest felt epic, important and had actual stakes on the line. I complain a lot about elements of this game (namely the sad state of Cyrodiil nowadays); but ZOS nailed this Solstice story arc. Kudos to the team for this one.

Arboz · November 15

Totally agree.
Felt epic, had great atmosphere and one could see that the devs had put a lot of work into it. Thanks a lot for that experience!

redlink1979 · November 15

LonePirate wrote: »

The last story quest in the Solstice zone - "The Final Dark" - was the most enjoyable zone story ending quest since perhaps the Orsinium DLC (...)

Now i'm even more interested because after all this time I still think Orsinium is the best chapter until the present day.

Syldras · November 15

Sorry to ruin the mood, but in case nothing has changed between PTS and Live (which unfortunately I don't believe, if not even many bugs were fixed, from what it looks like), I found it uncreative and formulaic. Not sure how much into detail I can go here, but...

...bringing a character back to life and killing him again after what can only be few months in-game time, in which he achieved basically nothing, isn't the super interesting thing storywise. It brought no new lore, it told us nothing new about the fictional world or its characters. There were no different endings, or at least not that I know of. For me, it makes the whole story feel rather redundant.

But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course. I still have to play the story on Live (and will so do in the upcoming week). If my view on this changes, I might post it here.

Jusey1 · November 15

Syldras wrote: »

...bringing a character back to life and killing him again after what can only be few months in-game time, in which he achieved basically nothing, isn't the super interesting thing storywise. It brought no new lore, it told us nothing new about the fictional world or its characters. There were no different endings, or at least not that I know of. For me, it makes the whole story feel rather redundant.

Doesn't help that we know Mannimarco will come back, again, no matter what we do in ESO. So, seeing his return and then another defeat just kinda like... Why? We know he'll come back for Daggerfall. We know he'll become a "god" via becoming Necromancer's Moon, and we know his extra mortal shell will die again in Oblivion... So, like... Seeing him again in ESO doesn't add anything other than "Oh, hello Mannimarco"... Just let the man exist and disappear. He doesn't need to do anything anymore in ESO at this rate.

I'm more interested in Darien's storyline... I just hope that the Meridia plothook doesn't get ignored for another ten years...

YstradClud · November 16

Jusey1 wrote: »

I'm more interested in Darien's storyline... I just hope that the Meridia plothook doesn't get ignored for another ten years...

Yeah, I find Darien interesting to have back (I know some people don't like him though). Just a pity we lost Gabrielle Benele in the process though.

Syldras · November 16

Jusey1 wrote: »

Doesn't help that we know Mannimarco will come back, again, no matter what we do in ESO. So, seeing his return and then another defeat just kinda like... Why? We know he'll come back for Daggerfall. We know he'll become a "god" via becoming Necromancer's Moon, and we know his extra mortal shell will die again in Oblivion... So, like... Seeing him again in ESO doesn't add anything other than "Oh, hello Mannimarco"... Just let the man exist and disappear. He doesn't need to do anything anymore in ESO at this rate.

The thing is...

...if they wanted, they could have used his return as a way to bridge lore between him ending up as a prisoner in Coldharbor in the ESO base game main quest and the person he has become in Daggerfall (We know in Daggerfall there are no Planemeld ideas anymore, the Worm Cult is not related with Molag Bal, Mannimarco has a bit of a character change, and the player character can even choose to do quests for him). As soon as it was clear he returns for the Solstice story, I had hoped to see exactly that phase in lore, plus background lore on him and maybe his time in Artaeum. It could have easily been done. Instead he got revived only to be stomped to the ground again after having been back for 3 months in Tamriel time or so. It seemed... nonsensical somehow? They could have made so much more about it.

The same with Wormblood: He's dead now and we learned absolutely nothing about him. Or nothing meaningful at least. Why introduce a character, make a mysterious news article about him (including rumours who he might be, that he might be related to Mannimarco, etc), and then he's just dead and that's it?

They could have even used Wormblood as an interesting character in Solstice Part 2, since he surely wasn't happy about Mannimarco taking over his body. They could have made something about his soul planning revenge or whatever, they could have set him up against Mannimarco, or Mannimarco against Molag Bal, whatever, some kind of conflict that could lead to an interesting outcome. Maybe even setting up the story so the player character has to temporarily side with one of them just to prevent a worse catastrophe. Imagine some things go horribly wrong and the player character has to cooperate with Mannimarco for once - and in the end he could just flee. Now that would be unexpected and a much more interesting story than "Evil Mannimarco is evil and gets defeated by the hero". That was such a simple story, it was just bland.

The idea with another Planemeld was also uncreative (Why try that again if it already failed once?!), and the thing with Soul Flayers instead of Soul Reapers as the mysterious thing the Worm Cult just newly invented was also a really strange choice.

robwolf666 · November 16

YstradClud wrote: »

Jusey1 wrote: »

I'm more interested in Darien's storyline... I just hope that the Meridia plothook doesn't get ignored for another ten years...

Yeah, I find Darien interesting to have back (I know some people don't like him though). Just a pity we lost Gabrielle Benele in the process though.

Yup... My Breton got to fulfil a dream with Darian at the end. I feel that was tailored for people who'd played through his story through the base game and expansions. 😏

Syldras · November 16

While I do understand that fans of Darien enjoyed the ending, I found it a bit strange to end a big story so specifically, because for people who don't care much for him, it's hardly interesting.

And even stranger to me is that indeed this seems to be officially considered "the big story ending", since in that introduction livestream to the new content, they said that there were "different endings" and that players could even "fail" - which seems to refer to this. The end fight has no different endings after all; I checked that. The Darien story bit has.

Also very strange to me that not getting into a deeper friendship with Darien is considered "failing". I don't like the game defining for me what stance my character is supposed to have with an npc, especially not when it comes to deeper emotional territory (and it's strange especially since they emphasized so much that they give different dialogue options and more player choice now - making becoming a close friend to one character the big goal - and painting not getting into this friendship as the whole chapter story ending with "failure" - is the opposite of choice).

Add to that that the only thing that decides whether you "fail" or not is whether you have different dialogue options available or not, which solely depend on how much ESO content you've finished before... So a new ESO player who joined with this story and hasn't played other stories before has no way not to "fail". Failure should be a matter of skill or of making bad choices in dialogue, not on whether one has extra dialogue enabled for being a long-time player or not.

While I think writing npcs in a more meaningful way is a good thing, I'd rather not see this kind of focus for one single npc. Especially since this whole story was sold to us as a story about the Worm Cult (it's even named after them), not as a personal story about Darien. I really hope this won't be the main focus now, with the next stories all ending the same way, with a different "fan favorite" each time... Yes, I know, some people would love that. And the devs can include optional(!) friendship or romance stuff, fine with me - but it shouldn't be the one big focus of a story, especially not if it's presented/advertised as something else.

AScarlato · November 16

I am writing to disagree entirely with pretty much everything in Post #9, and to provide my feedback to the Devs that I am extremely happy with the direction they have decided to go with for Darien. In fact, the fact that we are continuing a story and moving time ahead a bit, seeing a lot of recurring characters in a meaningful way moreso than just them appearing in one rando-quest is my favorite part of what they were doing this season.

There have been requests for deeper relationships with NPCs for years now, and they finally included this in the game. I couldn't be more thrilled. I am a huge fan of romance systems in RPGs and am glad this is something I can optionally explore in ESO, a game a great many players play as single-player RPGs for the setting and story.

It is immaterial to me if an individual character likes Darien or not. Of course the cast of a story will impact how much any one person likes any story. I have played other RPGs and the romance options are who they are, so you can take or leave them. I do think they should expand on this system and introduce a female character with a similar path of deeper friendship or romance though to balance this out to more interests though.

I don't find the argument that players who have not been through DC/Coldharbour/Summerset end up with a less deeper relationship to be compelling. Players who have been through all of that should have more of a connection to a character than those who have been through none of that with the character. I view a romance option to be the culmination of events, and it's better than what would otherwise be so sudden and unearned.

Now that this has happened, I would hope they bring him back and also now find a way to unlock him as a companion. Since we should have the option to travel with a "close friend" or someone you love. I know my Vestige would not declare love and then be like "see you in 10 years while I meander around doing whatever." I think since ESO is so sold, picking a core cast and having some aspects of an ongoing narrative with meaningful relationships would be quite an exciting direction.

Syldras · November 16

The conclusion of my post was this:

Syldras wrote: »

I really hope this won't be the main focus now, with the next stories all ending the same way, with a different "fan favorite" each time... Yes, I know, some people would love that. And the devs can include optional(!) friendship or romance stuff, fine with me - but it shouldn't be the one big focus of a story, especially not if it's presented/advertised as something else.

*shrugs*

I also wrote that I liked giving npcs a deeper characterization. I'm absolutely for time in Tamriel finally passing because I've always wished for character development.

I just don't think focussing on only one character is the ideal thing to do, especially if the story was advertised as being about something else.

I also don't agree with becoming the friend or lover of a character being considered the main goal of this story and calling it a failure if people who don't want that (or can't do it because they don't get those dialogue options) don't go for this option.

AScarlato · November 16

If they don't want it, they don't need to view it as a failure then, do they?

*shrugs as well*

Syldras · November 16

AScarlato wrote: »

If they don't want it, they don't need to view it as a failure then, do they?

Indeed. I also didn't see it as a failure that one of my PTS characters (a freshly created test character), who had done no other content before, didn't get the romance/friendship ending. He was a mercenary character who had just joined the Fellowship, he did his job, Tamriel is safe again, he's fine with it.

What I'm critical of is that the announcement stream raised different expectations that were not met (and I'm not the only person, other people I talked to were also rather confused about it). The main point is: It was stated that there were "different endings and even a way to fail the main quest". Which made me expect, well, different endings about this whole Worm Cult thing. Differences in what might happen to Solstice, to Mannimarco, to the Fellowship, for example. "Failure" actually sounded interesting and made me wonder whether there was a way the Planemeld on Solstice could not be stopped, or Mannimarco could flee, or become a powerful lich or whatever. I know some people were trying to somehow trigger a different outcome with the final fight, only to realize that there's nothing like that. We were rather baffled that "failing the main quest" was seemingly supposed to mean not to develop a deeper friendship or romance with Darien, and that's it.

I'm seriously happy for people who enjoyed the Darien ending. I'm not against romance in rpgs, if well-written. Companion romance would be something some of my characters would partake in, if it fits their background story (my Telvanni main is actually really fond of Azandar).

What I dislike with this year's content is really just that it was sold as "Season of the Worm Cult", but then, there's barely any interesting or new lore on that. They introduced Wormblood and made nothing of that. They brought Mannimarco back and made nothing of that either. The big threat was another Planemeld, which is also nothing new. This felt disappointing to me.

AScarlato · November 16

Syldras wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

If they don't want it, they don't need to view it as a failure then, do they?

What I'm critical of is that the announcement stream raised different expectations that were not met (and I'm not the only person, other people I talked to were also rather confused about it).

This is fair - and it could be viewed as deceptive advertising as I'm sure it's more the main plot that people would think they are talking about rather than a relatively inconsequential change in the relationship between our PC and an NPC in a game with hundreds of characters.

I think in general I'd love more attention given to the quality of the setting, story, and lore in general. It should be something they continue to strive for, and I don't think including NPC relationships should be mutually exclusive with a strong general plot for all players.

AVaelham · November 18

I liked the Darien/Meridia epilogue quest even more. Here are my thoughts on the story.

The Siege of Mor Naril was fun, don't get me wrong, especially the way we K/O Mani for good, but the whole Worm Cult 2.0 Arc didn't bring anything new to the table lore-wise regarding Mannimarco, his relationship/rivarly with Vanus Galerion, the world post-First Planemeld (we got gilmpses of it, to be fair) and list goes on. Loved that NPC recognised you from previous quests though, it finally felt like time is progressing.

The Daedric Princes themselves felt way too passive compared to the original main quest. I was expecting more Molag Bal content, taunting the players.

Now we know why, at least for one of them. Darien was brought back against Meridia's wishes. In fact, she did not give a Daedric rat's arse about mortals this time around. She turned her back on mortals for numerous DLCs now, including the fallen temple in Western Solstice. It's about time we see the sinister part of her. I really hope she is part of the next arc. I've been waiting for her to DO something for half a decade.

The Stirk Fellowship idea was fine, a bit crude, shame it now goes back to the status quo.

Jaimeh · November 19

Syldras wrote: »

Sorry to ruin the mood, but in case nothing has changed between PTS and Live (which unfortunately I don't believe, if not even many bugs were fixed, from what it looks like), I found it uncreative and formulaic. Not sure how much into detail I can go here, but...
...bringing a character back to life and killing him again after what can only be few months in-game time, in which he achieved basically nothing, isn't the super interesting thing storywise. It brought no new lore, it told us nothing new about the fictional world or its characters. There were no different endings, or at least not that I know of. For me, it makes the whole story feel rather redundant.
But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course. I still have to play the story on Live (and will so do in the upcoming week). If my view on this changes, I might post it here.

I agree with @Syldras, the inclusion of Mannimarco in the story felt like an afterthought for the sake of nostalgia and to have a tie with the original quest. His come-back didn't feel epic, dangerous or apocalyptic, only rushed and nonsensical. It would have been better if the story had been just about the efforts of Wormblood to revive the Worm Cult, and continue Manni's work with the ultimate goal of resurrecting him (before of course being thwarted by the Vestige).

The deaths of Gabriele and Merric didn't sit right with me either: we've known Merric since the game begun, and back in those days the FG quest was super difficult to complete, and having access to the Earth Forge was monumental, so it feels weird that they've killed him off so unceremoniously. In the case of Gabriele, I suspect it might have been partly because of Darien's return and partly because of the new romancing options with him, which if it's true, I find it super wrong, imo (the writing on those dialogue choices left a lot to be desired as well). Both Gabriele and Merric are appearing in existing quest lines, which makes things even more confusing. I really thought they could have found other ways to make an impact, and that (though I'm sure it's an unpopular opinion) they should have reserved Darien's return for the Meridia chapter, as we didn't need to have the original line up to go and fight the Worm Cult again.

They did give us new lore on Vanus and Mannimarco in the form of a lorebook with one of their debates on the ethics of necromancy, which I enjoyed reading because I'm interested in their past at Artaeum, but I was hoping for more dialogue by Vanus on Mannimarco, and just in general more shock, horror and impending doom with his return, more difficulty with his defeat, and for things not to be so neatly tied up (and indeed feel so formulaic) at the end. Also, the fact that we had Darien back and having to deal with his Meridia light-related angst (that aspect was really overdone, imo) took the focus away from the Worm Cult invasion part of the story a bit as well, that's why I think it should have been reserved for a separate Meridia-centric future chapter.

Also, I think Mannimarco here was given the same treatment as Ithelia: too much fanfare and build-up, for just a few appearances that were over too quickly, without any surprising twists, or earth-shaking consequences, and at the end a neat little celebration, following the same formula since Morrowind. Why not leave a cliff-hanger, or something that creates suspense? To me the Final Dark seemed shallow in its plot, with no satisfying answers to many questions (especially around the design of Solstice, and the role of Molag Bal and Coldharbour in the story). ZOS wanted a main quest 2.0 to celebrate the 10 years, but the writing for it was just wasn't there, and year after year we keep hearing about these epic events but the story quality keeps decreasing.

One last thing, it's unrelated to the Final Dark but has to do with the writing on the whole, I've noticed too many meme-like jokes and modernisms in recent years, I think the base game shows you can have good humour without them.

katanagirl1 · November 21

Well this is a spoiler for me since I haven’t finished the quest line yet.

People complained about no one ever dying in the game so now we have two characters that have been killed in one story, people complained about no romance options so now we have cringy lines to choose from in dialog options that have little red hearts next to them. This is not an improvement in my opinion.

I have done the DC storyline on three characters now, plus Cadwell’s gold on my AD main. That doesn’t mean I want to romance Darien. I’ve gotten sick of his whining in the Solstice story so far and has been the most negative part of the story. I guess we can’t just have characters be strong and suck it up anymore because that would not appeal to modern audiences.

I hope to complete the story sometime in the next week or so, but it sounds like maybe I will fail because I don’t want this game to be the new Baldur’s Gate.

Syldras · 12:30AM

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Well this is a spoiler for me since I haven’t finished the quest line yet.
People complained about no one ever dying in the game so now we have two characters that have been killed in one story, people complained about no romance options so now we have cringy lines to choose from in dialog options that have little red hearts next to them. This is not an improvement in my opinion.
I have done the DC storyline on three characters now, plus Cadwell’s gold on my AD main. That doesn’t mean I want to romance Darien. I’ve gotten sick of his whining in the Solstice story so far and has been the most negative part of the story. I guess we can’t just have characters be strong and suck it up anymore because that would not appeal to modern audiences.
I hope to complete the story sometime in the next week or so, but it sounds like maybe I will fail because I don’t want this game to be the new Baldur’s Gate.

I personally don't mind that there's a character emotionally in doubt. I favor a fictional world that's as "realistic" as possible, which means that there are all kinds of individuals: Intelligent and dumb, stronger and weaker, moral and immoral (and hopefully everything inbetween - which probably applies to more people than total morality or total "evilness"), brave people and cowards, different ages, beliefs, character traits, social groups, etc. The more complex and less clichéd the world feels, the better - and I want it to be unique and plausible for the fictional world we see, of course (whether ESO is good at that is a different topic).

The thing that I dislike is that I didn't sign up to babysit a Breton when buying "Season of the Worm Cult" - or at least not knowlingly so. Well, or less polemically: I didn't expect emotionally interacting with one single character, defined for me by the story, would take so much room - while there's so little else.

I don't mind Darien being part of the story, I don't mind the way he's characterized either, I mind that there's such a huge focus on him and not much else in a story that was sold to us as something completely different (calling it Season of the Worm Cult, introducing Wormblood as a mysterious character, bringing back Mannimarco in a dramatic finale...). If his story had just been one part of the whole thing (like, for example, one of the longer questlines back then on Vvardenfell focussing on one individual's fate), that would have been fine with me.

noblecron · 2:35AM

I really enjoyed the last quest. It was great. Cinematic!