Was This Plot Point Ever Explained? (Post-Solstice Main Quest Spoiler Warning)

prof-dracko · November 20

The way I read it, Molag bal had no real part in this pan. That's why they were dragging his realm into Nirn instead of the original Planemeld. If the wraithforge was outside of Coldharbor it's outside of Bal's control. Seemed like Manni was trying to drag as much realm and influence outside of Bal's reach as possible for himself.

Thevampirenight · November 20

prof-dracko wrote: »

The way I read it, Molag bal had no real part in this pan. That's why they were dragging his realm into Nirn instead of the original Planemeld. If the wraithforge was outside of Coldharbor it's outside of Bal's control. Seemed like Manni was trying to drag as much realm and influence outside of Bal's reach as possible for himself.

I agree with this, as Molag Bal was a means to like take over coldharbour from him in the orginal planemeld so he could be both a god and rule all of Nirn. By pulling Coldharbour into Nirn he could depower Molag Bal, because he is basiclaly stealing parts of his domain and also like, get what he wanted from Coldharbour, so like, he could likely steal both Coldharbour from Molag Bal and become a god like he wanted.

Soarora · November 20

Thevampirenight wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

it's also unclear why Mannimarco's soul can get hold of Wormblood's body in that situation when Wormblood's plan to use the artifact failed. If it's so easy without any artifacts, why didn't Mannimarco just possess him earlier?

Yep - that didn’t make any sense at all.

Can’t use artefact but then not actually needed (unless as a means to bring back Darian?) - so how does Mannimarco possess Wormblood?

And from that book - is Wormblood his nephew?!

My theory is the colored rooms is adjacent to coldharbour and in some way the colored rooms made it easier to pull out Mannimarco's soul from Coldharbour, allowing the wormcult to bypass coldharbours gates basically a loophole they were able to abuse which allowed them to do what they did there and why Mannimarco was able to return that quickly.. Because I think Meridia's realm would likely be very close and adjacent to Molag bal's palace in order for her to pull the vestige out of Heart's Grief.

That is an interesting theory. I don’t think we have lore showing how exactly the realms are laid out like we do for the Aedra (orreries) and Molag Bal’s realm does have the city he stole from Meridia. I’m of the opinion that the true form of a god is a planetary sphere, so the realms wouldn’t physically be able to overlap but it is possible they are relatively close to one another. Since the gods ARE their realm, Molag Bal does have a piece of Meridia, it’s possible that has made the connection between the two realms stronger.

Granted, since the surface of these planets are considered other realms, they could be metaphysical spheres.

Ingenon · November 20

Syldras wrote: »

All that talk about the Gift of Death being one-use, which is also the explanation for why Gabrielle is using it "to avoid Wormblood being able to use it afterwards" - while dialogue and lorebooks tell us, several times, before that point of the story that that very artifact has been used many times before by the Corelanya to test its properties (it's even stated they killed lots of people with it in testing until they found that for it to work, a life needs to be given freely without deceit or coercion).

When did someone say that the Gift of Death is one-use? I thought Gabrielle said ""Use the Gift of Death on me. We need to make sure Wormblood can't use it … and I know who to bring back …."". And she used it to call back Darien. And then Darien says "Gabrielle? Wait—Gabrielle! Gabrielle sacrificed herself for me? I … wait. This relic. It's a Light of Meridia!". And Darien and the Vestige work together to use the Light of Meridia to destroy the soul reapers that Mannimarco is using to gain power after taking over Wormblood's body.

I agree the quest writing could be more detailed. However, I think that Gabrielle did what she could while dying to keep Wormblood from using the Gift of Death. And what she did "worked". Wormblood did not get to use it once Darien was called back.

Soarora · November 20

Ingenon wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

All that talk about the Gift of Death being one-use, which is also the explanation for why Gabrielle is using it "to avoid Wormblood being able to use it afterwards" - while dialogue and lorebooks tell us, several times, before that point of the story that that very artifact has been used many times before by the Corelanya to test its properties (it's even stated they killed lots of people with it in testing until they found that for it to work, a life needs to be given freely without deceit or coercion).

When did someone say that the Gift of Death is one-use? I thought Gabrielle said ""Use the Gift of Death on me. We need to make sure Wormblood can't use it … and I know who to bring back …."". And she used it to call back Darien. And then Darien says "Gabrielle? Wait—Gabrielle! Gabrielle sacrificed herself for me? I … wait. This relic. It's a Light of Meridia!". And Darien and the Vestige work together to use the Light of Meridia to destroy the soul reapers that Mannimarco is using to gain power after taking over Wormblood's body.

I agree the quest writing could be more detailed. However, I think that Gabrielle did what she could while dying to keep Wormblood from using the Gift of Death. And what she did "worked". Wormblood did not get to use it once Darien was called back.

The implication is that Gabrielle using it would render it unusable, thus it is one-use. But we’re also in Meridia’s realm using a Meridian artifact to bring back a Meridian entity. We can’t trust that the artifact really did that much. Meridia could’ve just brought back Darien, it’s implied part of why he even came back is because she allowed it anyways.

Could also just be “Darien stronk, he will take down Wormblood then he can’t use it!”, but the way it was said made me think it was one use too.

Ingenon · November 20

Soarora wrote: »

The implication is that Gabrielle using it would render it unusable, thus it is one-use. But we’re also in Meridia’s realm using a Meridian artifact to bring back a Meridian entity. We can’t trust that the artifact really did that much. Meridia could’ve just brought back Darien, it’s implied part of why he even came back is because she allowed it anyways.

Could also just be “Darien stronk, he will take down Wormblood then he can’t use it!”, but the way it was said made me think it was one use too.

I am not seeing the implication, so we will have to agree to disagree. I think when the quest writers said "She was dying. She asked me to use the Gift of Death so that Wormblood couldn't use it.", they should have used more words. They never finished the sentence by saying "because it can only be used one time". And they never finished the sentence by saying "because you (Darien) will help stop him". So I guess we are free to disagree because the quest writing (in my opinion) is not clear.

spartaxoxo · November 20

Soarora wrote: »

The implication is that Gabrielle using it would render it unusable, thus it is one-use. But we’re also in Meridia’s realm using a Meridian artifact to bring back a Meridian entity. We can’t trust that the artifact really did that much. Meridia could’ve just brought back Darien, it’s implied part of why he even came back is because she allowed it anyways.

Could also just be “Darien stronk, he will take down Wormblood then he can’t use it!”, but the way it was said made me think it was one use too.

She thought it wouldn't be usable again because she suspected it would be purified in Meridia's realm upon using it for Darien. The Gift of Death was a corrupted Meridian Light.

ETA I'm not sure if she knew that. What she did definitely know is that Darien was a Meridian Light given mortal form. And that Meridia was a powerful ally with magic against necromancy. She also says that Wormblood won't be able to use it anymore after she makes her request.

The dialogue makes it clear that none of the people left alive understand what precisely caused the Light to be purified. It could be because of Darien, Meridia, or simply being in the Colored Rooms. Whatever the case, the purification is what made the Gift of Death cease working as a necromantic tool.

What all Gabrielle knew is left a mystery as she started keeping information hidden after Farinor's betrayal. She had previously trusted her and had not suspected her. So, afterwards, she only shares information on a need to know basis and even hid some of her notes. Luckily, Midconjurer Mirmal is able to find someone and take over as head researcher after her death using what is left of her notes and his own research.

Syldras · November 22

Jaimeh wrote: »

It would have been an opportune moment for ZOS to give us a foreshadowing of Mannimarco's fate and a link to the future games... Vanus did talk about him just a bit at the end with the Vestige but it was almost like an afterthought. Really, there are so many things they could have done differently with these two NPCs present that it does seem like a wasted opportunity.

Did he say much? Because I remember that on PTS he said absolutely nothing about his captivity (which already made me wonder whether dialogue parts were still missing on PTS or whether it was bugged somehow), and the only thing he ever said about Mannimarco (if you talked to him somewhere between quests) was a one-liner, something along the lines of "I hated Mannimarco since the first time I saw him!" Which I also found rather weird. Made me wonder whether they forgot about the flashbacks in the Traitor's Vault or whether they want to retcon it because their friendship doesn't fit their current clear black/white schemes? Or they just wanted Vanus to sound bitter. But then, why can't the player character say a thing, even if they have experienced the Summerset questline including the part in the traitor's vault before? If we've played that content, our character knows that's not the truth, after all.

Aliyavana · 2:50AM

What happens if Wormblood resurrects Mannimarco?
"Mannimarco planned to elevate himself to become the god of death. I imagine he would resume that journey.
Still … I thought Molag Bal had a claim on his soul. Recalling Mannimarco from Coldharbour should not be possible."
We know Wormblood is looking for something called the Gift of Death.
"If that is what Wormblood needs to unlock the gates of Coldharbour and return Mannimarco to Nirn, we must discover what it is and make sure he does not acquire it.

I wonder if Molag Bal's relationship is fixed with Mannimarco. Is Molag Bal unable to just give his soul back? Are Molag Bal's daedra trying to resurrect Mannimarco behind Molag Bal's back?