Was This Plot Point Ever Explained? (Post-Solstice Main Quest Spoiler Warning)

Aliyavana · November 19

From the context I have seen, it looks like Mannimarco was trying to become a god again in Solstice. Previously, he was being punished by Molag Bal for trying to usurp him the last time with the Amulet of Kings, but now the Worm Cult allied themselves with Molag Bal's daedra again.

Did the Worm Cult resurrect Mannimarco while he was being tortured by Molag Bal in Heart's Grief (or hunted assuming you freed him)?
Was Mannimarco going to betray Molag Bal again and was only using Coldharbour's forces to further his own goals?
Why were the Worm Cultists and Daedra ok with working with each other? Were the cultists and the daedra aware that Mannimarco had betrayed Molag Bal?
Is Molag Bal aware that Mannimarco is trying to make himself a god, but is he ok with it as long as Mannimarco a servant?

WhiteCoatSyndrome · November 19

TBH I assume if Mannimarco succeeded in ascending to godhood he’d be mantling Bal in the process, and that’s why Bal isn’t up in arms about it. If Manni pulled it off, they’d essentially be the same entity (and more powerful than before), Manni would just be a new aspect of Bal.

Syldras · November 19

The whole chapter is a huge plothole.

Hapexamendios · November 19

Still was way more interesting than the first part even with the plot holes.

Syldras · November 19

The first part also had more plotholes than any other chapters. A few examples apart from what OP mentioned (we've already seen the Worm Cult and Molag Bal's daedra, in particular the Darkbinder clan, interacting in Part 1, in different locations):

The whole thing takes places on a remote island almost no one knows about and seafarers avoid because they think it's cursed, but still all races are presents there (including Nords wearing pelt clothing in the hot climate) and everyone seems to have friends on the mainland.

Mannimarco's sarcophagus was taken from East Solstice to that cave in West Solstice - that's stated in dialogue - only for the player to discover it, it seems (at least there's no logical reason why the cultists would take it to the West if it was safely behind the Wall before), and in the end it just shows up in Meridia's realm when needed (nicely propped up on another Alinor sarcophagus, too).

All that talk about the Gift of Death being one-use, which is also the explanation for why Gabrielle is using it "to avoid Wormblood being able to use it afterwards" - while dialogue and lorebooks tell us, several times, before that point of the story that that very artifact has been used many times before by the Corelanya to test its properties (it's even stated they killed lots of people with it in testing until they found that for it to work, a life needs to be given freely without deceit or coercion).

And in part 2 we now had:

Worm Cult ballistas conveniently aiming at their own fortress instead of away from it (facing potential Stirk attackers) - how convenient, because the player character is supposed to use them against Worm cultists.

The College of Sea and Sword with its students regularly crossing over to West Solstice before the Wall appeared, while lore told us that East Solstice was a complete mystery because no one had travelled there for the past 40 years or so.

And it goes on...

Soarora · November 19

Prefacing with the information that I haven't done most of the second half of Solstice yet but I have some thoughts so I'm answering anyways!

Aliyavana wrote: »

Did the Worm Cult resurrect Mannimarco while he was being tortured by Molag Bal in Heart's Grief (or hunted assuming you freed him)?

My understanding is that the only resurrection that happened is what we see with Wormblood. They got his corpse (and presumably his soul... seperately) out of Coldharbour. To me, the real question is... who is Wormblood and why would he agree to help Mannimarco? It feels like an Oblivion reference in that there's two Mannimarcos but since Mannimarco kicks Wormblood out, surely Wormblood isn't the mortal Mannimarco in Oblivion.

Aliyavana wrote: »

Was Mannimarco going to betray Molag Bal again and was only using Coldharbour's forces to further his own goals?

Most likely not. Mannimarco wants to become *A* god, he doesn't specifically need to mantle Molag Bal. The Worm Cult aren't necessarily all Molag Bal followers but there's no reason to toss aside all the ones that are... if they still think Mannimarco's trying to help Molag Bal. They're all just fodder Mannimarco already has under his control. Now that Molag Bal is aware of his previous plan and the Planemeld is ended, he has no reason to go for Molag Bal a second time. Other gods? Maybe. Growing his own power? Most definitely-- he becomes a lich at some point. In the end, he will become a god by using the Numidium during the Warp in the West.

Aliyavana wrote: »

Why were the Worm Cultists and Daedra ok with working with each other? Were the cultists and the daedra aware that Mannimarco had betrayed Molag Bal?

There was a discussion about this already. I'm of the opinion that it's either that the Daedra are personally benefitting from the relationship (perhaps paid in entertainment or souls) or the cult is summoning them (then they don't get a choice). It is possible that the cultists and Daedra aren't aware of the betrayal though, this could be Mannimarco's secret contingency plan. Daedra are separate from the god of the realm they live in, so they don't necessarily know everything Molag Bal does unless he tells them.

Aliyavana wrote: »

Is Molag Bal aware that Mannimarco is trying to make himself a god, but is he ok with it as long as Mannimarco a servant?

I'd imagine Molag Bal is frustrated with losing the Vestige and the Companions (including Mannimarco) back-to-back. But we also beamed him with the power of the Amulet of Kings and he's not able to manifest directly on Nirn so he might not be able to do much about it at the moment. Perhaps by the time Molag Bal can do anything about it, Mannimarco's become too powerful for the actual cult of Molag Bal to do anything about.

Aliyavana wrote: »

Mannimarco was never going to lose his desire to become a god. If ZOS perma-killed Mannimarco or had him lose his ambition, they would be stepping out of line by calling other games into question... since Mannimarco appears in almost all of them in one way or another. Eventually, the Worm Cult becomes entirely a Necromancer group and Mannimarco becomes the Necromancer Moon. Such is the way.

Syldras · November 19

Soarora wrote: »

There was a discussion about this already. I'm of the opinion that it's either that the Daedra are personally benefitting from the relationship (perhaps paid in entertainment or souls) or the cult is summoning them (then they don't get a choice).

The daedra aren't summoned against their will, they are actively cooperating with the Worm Cult by the order of Molag Bal himself:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Our_Darkbinder_Allies

Soarora · November 19

Syldras wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

There was a discussion about this already. I'm of the opinion that it's either that the Daedra are personally benefitting from the relationship (perhaps paid in entertainment or souls) or the cult is summoning them (then they don't get a choice).

The daedra aren't summoned against their will, they are actively cooperating with the Worm Cult by the order of Molag Bal himself:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Our_Darkbinder_Allies

I guess I'll have to remember to keep an eye out when I do the quests to see if I can get any information then. My first thought would be that what they say is a ruse, that this Bonelord (notably a Necromancy themed title) is spreading a lie to the Molag Bal part of the Worm Cult to ensure belief in those cultists that the Worms are still following Molag Bal. The middle section about how the Darkbinders are looked down upon by other clans may hold the true answer. Perhaps the Darkbinders were convinced using the carrot of ascension above those other clans. Perhaps this convincing of the Darkbinders is how the Worms were able to acquire Mannimarco from Coldharbour in the first place.

Syldras · November 19

Soarora wrote: »

Perhaps this convincing of the Darkbinders is how the Worms were able to acquire Mannimarco from Coldharbour in the first place.

How would that have worked if it was against Molag Bal's will? I don't think Molag Bal left him unattended. He was no average prisoner, after all.

Soarora · November 19

Syldras wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Perhaps this convincing of the Darkbinders is how the Worms were able to acquire Mannimarco from Coldharbour in the first place.

How would that have worked if it was against Molag Bal's will? I don't think Molag Bal left him unattended. He was no average prisoner, after all.

The realistic opinion I have is that it’s all just plot holes because ZOS went “oh we should do main quest part 2 because it’s our 10 year anniversary”.

But to continue my argument on the preimse of trying to tie things together, I would say that it goes back to Molag Bal getting blasted by the Amulet of Kings and needing to recoup. Perhaps combination of this recoup period and the knowledge of the Darkbringers allowed the Worm Cult to sneak him out somehow. Maybe the coffin is enchanted with his soul or has items of importance in it, just enough for the corrupted Meridian artifact to function.

I know Molag Bal IS Coldharbour so it’d be basically impossible to get anything past him but they must’ve done something unless that coffin is empty. In which case… why would they even have it?

I would not in any universe believe Molag Bal just let Mannimarco go, he’s the prince of Domination. Not the prince of Hunting, so it’s not “oh I need him to go away so I can get him again”. Molag Bal’s smarter than to be like “oh you said you won’t do it again? Ok, be free!” and as we know, the Worm Cult ends up having nothing to do with Molag Bal unless Molag Bal has a thing against Arkay.

Syldras · November 19

Soarora wrote: »

The realistic opinion I have is that it’s all just plot holes because ZOS went “oh we should do main quest part 2 because it’s our 10 year anniversary”.

If it gave us new meaningful lore at least! Giving Darien a bit of character development wasn't bad (although I personally don't care much for him as a character). But it's sad they made nothing of other central characters and factions involved. Not sure how much I should go into detail (on the one hand, this thread has a spoiler warning in its title, on the other hand you wrote you haven't finished the whole East Solstice content yet), but to me the whole thing felt like such a wasted opportunity in terms of lore.

Soarora wrote: »

I know Molag Bal IS Coldharbour so it’d be basically impossible to get anything past him but they must’ve done something unless that coffin is empty. In which case… why would they even have it?

But did his body also end up in Coldharbor or was it only his soul (which then was later pulled from Coldharbor into Wormblood's body during the Solstice part 1 finale)? Or shouldn't be any physical form that ends up in Coldharbor be replaced with a vestige anyway? So unless Molag Bal made an exception with Mannimarco somehow, his physical body should probably have remained in Sancre Tor, where cultists could have easily collected it?

To be honest, the whole ending of Solstice part 1 doesn't make much sense to me. Too many unclarities that never get resolved. Not only how the sarcophagus even ends up there that fast, or the whole nonsense about using a known multiple-use artifact "to consume it so Wormblood can't use it", it's also unclear why Mannimarco's soul can get hold of Wormblood's body in that situation when Wormblood's plan to use the artifact failed. If it's so easy without any artifacts, why didn't Mannimarco just possess him earlier? He could still have tried to transfer himself into his old body then. Actually he seems like a person who doesn't enjoy relying on other people anyway, so it would have made sense if he had tried to take the whole issue in his own hands as early as possible.

Soarora wrote: »

I would not in any universe believe Molag Bal just let Mannimarco go, he’s the prince of Domination. Not the prince of Hunting, so it’s not “oh I need him to go away so I can get him again”. Molag Bal’s smarter than to be like “oh you said you won’t do it again? Ok, be free!” and as we know, the Worm Cult ends up having nothing to do with Molag Bal unless Molag Bal has a thing against Arkay.

That's also what bothers me about the whole story. It just makes no sense Molag Bal would let him go, especially after threatening him with eternal torment, or show any mercy for the Worm Cult, let alone cooperate with them again. Of course one can make up detailed and complicated explanations oneself, as a speculation for it all to make sense somehow, but I'd expect the story to give me the answer, especially if a situation looks utterly implausible. And sadly, there's nothing like that (unless I missed some lorebook).

Gabriel_H · November 19

Soarora wrote: »

who is Wormblood and why would he agree to help Mannimarco? It feels like an Oblivion reference in that there's two Mannimarcos but since Mannimarco kicks Wormblood out, surely Wormblood isn't the mortal Mannimarco in Oblivion.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wormblood

Soarora · November 19

Syldras wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

The realistic opinion I have is that it’s all just plot holes because ZOS went “oh we should do main quest part 2 because it’s our 10 year anniversary”.

If it gave us new meaningful lore at least! Giving Darien a bit of character development wasn't bad (although I personally don't care much for him as a character). But it's sad they made nothing of other central characters and factions involved. Not sure how much I should go into detail (on the one hand, this thread has a spoiler warning in its title, on the other hand you wrote you haven't finished the whole East Solstice content yet), but to me the whole thing felt like such a wasted opportunity in terms of lore.

I don't mind spoilers! I'm stalling doing West Solstice for the... third... time (other two times were on PTS). And yeah, with both ZOS and Bethesda I feel I'm constantly on edge like "will they bring is good lore or mess up the existing lore?"...

Syldras wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I know Molag Bal IS Coldharbour so it’d be basically impossible to get anything past him but they must’ve done something unless that coffin is empty. In which case… why would they even have it?

But did his body also end up in Coldharbor or was it only his soul (which then was later pulled from Coldharbor into Wormblood's body during the Solstice part 1 finale)? Or shouldn't be any physical form that ends up in Coldharbor be replaced with a vestige anyway? So unless Molag Bal made an exception with Mannimarco somehow, his physical body should probably have remained in Sancre Tor, where cultists could have easily collected it?

To be honest, the whole ending of Solstice part 1 doesn't make much sense to me. Too many unclarities that never get resolved. Not only how the sarcophagus even ends up there that fast, or the whole nonsense about using a known multiple-use artifact "to consume it so Wormblood can't use it", it's also unclear why Mannimarco's soul can get hold of Wormblood's body in that situation when Wormblood's plan to use the artifact failed. If it's so easy without any artifacts, why didn't Mannimarco just possess him earlier? He could still have tried to transfer himself into his old body then. Actually he seems like a person who doesn't enjoy relying on other people anyway, so it would have made sense if he had tried to take the whole issue in his own hands as early as possible.

To be honest, it's been so long since I've done that part of the main quest that I don't even remember how he got into the prisoner of Molag Bal situation to begin with haha. If his body never was in Coldharbour then maybe that explains the coffin and perhaps the relic just yoinked him from Coldharbour, negating the whole "Molag Bal sees all" problem. I'm not sure why they even needed the coffin to begin with though, Gabrielle just... manifested Darien. I know it's implied he showed up because Meridia wanted him to but Gabrielle made no comments that I recall about needing a focus for the relic... just a sacrifice.

My understanding of what I saw was that Wormblood did use the relic and accidentally sacrificed himself. The whole Mannimarco -> Wormblood situation makes me uncomfortable though... because I can't imagine him wanting to be in another person's body, though I also don't know how much he cares for vanity considering uhh... liches don't look pretty. Maybe this is all an elaborate ploy to explain why his eye color keeps changing LOL.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

who is Wormblood and why would he agree to help Mannimarco? It feels like an Oblivion reference in that there's two Mannimarcos but since Mannimarco kicks Wormblood out, surely Wormblood isn't the mortal Mannimarco in Oblivion.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wormblood

Proving my point, there's nothing about who he is that offset the weirdness of Mannimarco needing another person. He's just a guy that's trusted by Mannimarco for no explainable reason, wearing a mask for no explained reason. The entire point of the Worm Cult is to ascend Mannimarco to godhood, why would he trust anyone with control over his entire cult? What drove Wormblood to idealize Mannimarco so much that he would bring him back instead of taking his place?

Gabriel_H · November 19

Soarora wrote: »

Proving my point, there's nothing about who he is that offset the weirdness of Mannimarco needing another person. He's just a guy that's trusted by Mannimarco for no explainable reason, wearing a mask for no explained reason. The entire point of the Worm Cult is to ascend Mannimarco to godhood, why would he trust anyone with control over his entire cult? What drove Wormblood to idealize Mannimarco so much that he would bring him back instead of taking his place?

"It was said that Mannimarco established a secret Worm Nest, concealed not only from his enemies throughout Tamriel but also from other branches of the cult: this hidden cell was charged with resurfacing to restore the cult should disaster befall Mannimarco or the Worm Cult itself. Wormblood has embraced this role, declaring himself a vessel for Mannimarco's ambitions and enforcing strict adherence to the King of Worms' doctrines and designs"

You are seeking sane reasons from a cult? I'd be more concerned if there was an explanation. Though he appears to have been family, and the intention wasn't to lose himself but co-habit.

Ilsabet · November 19

Soarora wrote: »

Maybe this is all an elaborate ploy to explain why his eye color keeps changing LOL.

Unironically it's likely to be an elaborate ploy to explain why his voice changed.

(Jim Ward, his original VA, is retired, so Alejandro Saab is playing Wormblood and new!Mannimarco.)

Also regarding Wormblood in general, there's a lorebook that I don't remember from PTS that gives a lot more info on his relation to Mannimarco:

I haven't seen it in-game myself, but it's reportedly in Mor Naril in the room where you find Darien's Light.

SerafinaWaterstar · November 19

it's also unclear why Mannimarco's soul can get hold of Wormblood's body in that situation when Wormblood's plan to use the artifact failed. If it's so easy without any artifacts, why didn't Mannimarco just possess him earlier?

Yep - that didn’t make any sense at all.

Can’t use artefact but then not actually needed (unless as a means to bring back Darian?) - so how does Mannimarco possess Wormblood?

And from that book - is Wormblood his nephew?!

Ilsabet · November 19

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Can’t use artefact but then not actually needed (unless as a means to bring back Darian?) - so how does Mannimarco possess Wormblood?

I suspect Wormblood's ritual had gotten far enough to summon Mannimarco's soul to the ritual site, but he would have needed the Gift to implant it in Mannimarco's body. Without the Gift, Mannimarco's soul was like "welp I guess your body will have to do the job" and possessed him.

I'm somewhat more interested in how all of this necromantic summoning was pulled off within Meridia's realm...

Jaimeh · November 19

It's just bad writing: they wanted a main quest 2.0, but it doesn't make sense they way they presented it. Mannimarco was given the Ithelia treatment: not many explanations about their existence/return, too much fanfare about their powers, too few appearances, and ultimately a very easy defeat that felt too neat in its conclusion. It would have been better if the story had been just about Wormblood trying to revive the Worm Cult (with the ultimate goal of resurrecting Manni, but without actually succeeding), and leaving out the involvement of Coldharbour or another plane meld. But we didn't really need to have a Worm Cult related story at all, for instance, a Meridia-centric chapter would suit Darien's return much better, and it would have been suitable for the 10 years of the game as well.

Soarora · November 19

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Proving my point, there's nothing about who he is that offset the weirdness of Mannimarco needing another person. He's just a guy that's trusted by Mannimarco for no explainable reason, wearing a mask for no explained reason. The entire point of the Worm Cult is to ascend Mannimarco to godhood, why would he trust anyone with control over his entire cult? What drove Wormblood to idealize Mannimarco so much that he would bring him back instead of taking his place?

"It was said that Mannimarco established a secret Worm Nest, concealed not only from his enemies throughout Tamriel but also from other branches of the cult: this hidden cell was charged with resurfacing to restore the cult should disaster befall Mannimarco or the Worm Cult itself. Wormblood has embraced this role, declaring himself a vessel for Mannimarco's ambitions and enforcing strict adherence to the King of Worms' doctrines and designs"

You are seeking sane reasons from a cult? I'd be more concerned if there was an explanation. Though he appears to have been family, and the intention wasn't to lose himself but co-habit.

My expectations are that if a new important character is introduced that we get information beyond “uhh they might’ve been family and there were plans and stuff”. Did Mannimarco seek a family member to manipulate into the perfect servant? Did Wormblood hear of Mannimarco, perhaps shunned by his family, and seek him out? There’s the potential for heavy lore implications if Wormblood really is his nephew because it’d mean that either Mannimarco has a younger sibling, he lied about when he was born, Wormblood isn’t mortal, or Altmer (argued Aldmer I guess… though they’re kinda the same thing) live a very long time.

Sane reason or no, there must be reason. Mannimarco’s cunning anyways.

Ilsabet wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Maybe this is all an elaborate ploy to explain why his eye color keeps changing LOL.

Unironically it's likely to be an elaborate ploy to explain why his voice changed.

(Jim Ward, his original VA, is retired, so Alejandro Saab is playing Wormblood and new!Mannimarco.)

Also regarding Wormblood in general, there's a lorebook that I don't remember from PTS that gives a lot more info on his relation to Mannimarco:

I haven't seen it in-game myself, but it's reportedly in Mor Naril in the room where you find Darien's Light.

Good point! Though it’s not like we haven’t had VAs change before. And people’s voices change.

Thanks for the book! I think it’s in character for him that Wormblood just wasn’t good enough. I wish we got good explanation as to why he chose him instead of like… multiple people. Or doing soul wacko shenanigans on himself to make his contingency plan be himself. Or a daedra/atronach. Or just revealing he’s been a lich this whole time.

I’m quite curious now how the end of the questline plays out since… like I said earlier… Mannimarco can’t die. But also… having to do so many quests… can I be bothered? xD

Gabriel_H · November 19

Jaimeh wrote: »

a Meridia-centric chapter would suit Darien's return much better, and it would have been suitable for the 10 years of the game as well.

The ending setup Meridia to be a future enemy.

BardokRedSnow · November 19

I assumed that Molag Baldur being thoroughly defeated in his own realm and as close to dead as a daedric lord can be means Mannimarco was able to escape/be broken out more easily.

Someone in the story probably should’ve stated that but it is still the most obvious explanation.

Syldras · November 19

Soarora wrote: »

I don't mind spoilers! I'm stalling doing West Solstice for the... third... time (other two times were on PTS). And yeah, with both ZOS and Bethesda I feel I'm constantly on edge like "will they bring is good lore or mess up the existing lore?"...

The main problem this year is they didn't even mess up much lore - there's barely any lore at all. Many decisions we saw in this chapter just made we wonder: Why? Introducing Wormblood as a potentially interesting character, even giving hints on him being related to Mannimarco, which looked like there could be some family background lore about both of them - and then nothing. Or bringing back Mannimarco and then not making anything of that either. Really: What purpose did this story serve?

Soarora wrote: »

My understanding of what I saw was that Wormblood did use the relic and accidentally sacrificed himself.

Nah, the relic remained with the Stirk Fellowship. Mannimarco's soul (which was, for unknown reasons, already present somewhere and watching the whole situation) just noticed there was no way Wormblood would get hold on the artifact that fast, so he possessed him instead of slipping back into his own mortal body. He wanted his old body back. Possibly not only for reasons of vanity, but because, I think, it also contains some of his magical ability, magicka or whatever, so without it, he loses a bit of his power.

Ilsabet wrote: »

Also regarding Wormblood in general, there's a lorebook that I don't remember from PTS that gives a lot more info on his relation to Mannimarco:

I haven't seen it in-game myself, but it's reportedly in Mor Naril in the room where you find Darien's Light.

Interesting. I haven't seen it on PTS either. So Wormblood is his nephew? Why does he call him Wormblood then - he surely has a real name? Also, there's no detailed lore either, it seems... Indeed now it would have been interesting to know how exactly their relationship looked like, how and why Wormblood got into the Cult, etc.

Jaimeh wrote: »

It's just bad writing: they wanted a main quest 2.0, but it doesn't make sense they way they presented it. Mannimarco was given the Ithelia treatment: not many explanations about their existence/return, too much fanfare about their powers, too few appearances, and ultimately a very easy defeat that felt too neat in its conclusion.

I fully agree, sadly. And this, together with all bugs we got this year, and the decision to introduce one-time content, has negatively influenced my interest in ESO and whether I'm going to buy any new content from next year on.

I can live with a bit of suspension of disbelief, but if the whole story seems not to make much sense, I lose interest. Nostalgia and flirt options, even if it was with a character my characters would find interesting, won't change a thing about that. More roleplay options and possible romance are, for me, a plus on top of what should be a good story. If there's no good story, they don't matter for me either.

Jaimeh wrote: »

It would have been better if the story had been just about Wormblood trying to revive the Worm Cult (with the ultimate goal of resurrecting Manni, but without actually succeeding), and leaving out the involvement of Coldharbour or another plane meld. But we didn't really need to have a Worm Cult related story at all, for instance, a Meridia-centric chapter would suit Darien's return much better, and it would have been suitable for the 10 years of the game as well.

Since they chose to call it "Season of the Worm Cult", I expected deeper lore on the cult, on Mannimarco, Galerion, their time in Artaeum - such things. I had already expected for Mannimarco to return, but I wished that something interesting would have been done with that, something unexpected - and not just defeating him again and that's it. That was literally the most boring outcome; honestly, it was so bland I didn't expect them to actually do that (As I wrote earlier: Why bring a character back only to remove him again after 4 quests or so, in which he barely does a thing, and the player character doesn't even see much of him).

The saddest thing to me is that with this story, the topic is most probably off the list. Which means: There won't be any lore addition to that anymore. A huge missed opportunity for some great background characterization. Mannimarco is a central character of TES lore as a whole, still, we know nothing about his background (except for him having been a student on Artaeum; but nothing beyond that).

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I assumed that Molag Baldur being thoroughly defeated in his own realm and as close to dead as a daedric lord can be means Mannimarco was able to escape/be broken out more easily.
Someone in the story probably should’ve stated that but it is still the most obvious explanation.

And he chose to possess someone just now? Maybe a decade later? Not 5 years ago, or 9 months, or last Thursday?

Gabriel_H · November 19

Syldras wrote: »

And he chose to possess someone just now? Maybe a decade later? Not 5 years ago, or 9 months, or last Thursday?

48 years, not 10. Just saying.

Gabriel_H · November 19

Syldras wrote: »

The saddest thing to me is that with this story, the topic is most probably off the list. Which means: There won't be any lore addition to that anymore. A huge missed opportunity for some great background characterization. Mannimarco is a central character of TES lore as a whole, still, we know nothing about his background (except for him having been a student on Artaeum; but nothing beyond that).

Why would we know more about him in 2E 630 than is known in 4E 201?

BardokRedSnow · November 19

Syldras wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I assumed that Molag Baldur being thoroughly defeated in his own realm and as close to dead as a daedric lord can be means Mannimarco was able to escape/be broken out more easily.
Someone in the story probably should’ve stated that but it is still the most obvious explanation.

And he chose to possess someone just now? Maybe a decade later? Not 5 years ago, or 9 months, or last Thursday?

I mean, he didnt choose to do anything, his people had to get together and one find a good vessel and two conduct the proper ritual.

Also there's timey wimey stuff with Oblivion realms etc, 10 years, 40 years, doesn't mean much in the void, see Darien.

Jaimeh · November 19

Soarora wrote: »

Since they chose to call it "Season of the Worm Cult", I expected deeper lore on the cult, on Mannimarco, Galerion, their time in Artaeum - such things. I had already expected for Mannimarco to return, but I wished that something interesting would have been done with that, something unexpected - and not just defeating him again and that's it. That was literally the most boring outcome; honestly, it was so bland I didn't expect them to actually do that (As I wrote earlier: Why bring a character back only to remove him again after 4 quests or so, in which he barely does a thing, and the player character doesn't even see much of him).

The saddest thing to me is that with this story, the topic is most probably off the list. Which means: There won't be any lore addition to that anymore. A huge missed opportunity for some great background characterization. Mannimarco is a central character of TES lore as a whole, still, we know nothing about his background (except for him having been a student on Artaeum; but nothing beyond that).

I was really disappointed about the handling of Mannimarco as well, and the ending of the story in general, I'll copy what I wrote in another thread, but basically, the inclusion of Mannimarco in the story felt like an afterthought for the sake of nostalgia and to have a tie with the original quest. His come-back didn't feel epic, dangerous or apocalyptic, only rushed and nonsensical. It would have been better if the story had been just about the efforts of Wormblood to revive the Worm Cult, and continue Manni's work with the ultimate goal of resurrecting him (before of course being thwarted by the Vestige).

The deaths of Gabriele and Merric didn't sit right with me either: we've known Merric since the game begun, and back in those days the FG quest was super difficult to complete, and having access to the Earth Forge was monumental, so it feels weird that they've killed him off so unceremoniously. In the case of Gabriele, I suspect it might have been partly because of Darien's return and partly because of the new romancing options with him, which if it's true, I find it super wrong, imo (the writing on those dialogue choices left a lot to be desired as well). Both Gabriele and Merric are appearing in existing quest lines, which makes things even more confusing. I really thought they could have found other ways to make an impact, and that (though I'm sure it's an unpopular opinion) they should have reserved Darien's return for the Meridia chapter, as we didn't need to have the original line up to go and fight the Worm Cult again.

They did give us new lore on Vanus and Mannimarco in the form of a lorebook with one of their debates on the ethics of necromancy, which I enjoyed reading because I'm interested in their past at Artaeum, but I was hoping for more dialogue by Vanus on Mannimarco, and just in general more shock, horror and impending doom with his return, more difficulty with his defeat, and for things not to be so neatly tied up (and indeed feel so formulaic) at the end. Also, the fact that we had Darien back and having to deal with his Meridia light-related angst (that aspect was really overdone, imo) took the focus away from the Worm Cult invasion part of the story a bit as well, that's why I think it should have been reserved for a separate Meridia-centric future chapter.

Also, I think Mannimarco here was given the same treatment as Ithelia: too much fanfare and build-up, for just a few appearances that were over too quickly, without any surprising twists, or earth-shaking consequences, and at the end a neat little celebration, following the same formula since Morrowind. Why not leave a cliff-hanger, or something that creates suspense? To me the Final Dark seemed shallow in its plot, with no satisfying answers to many questions (especially around the design of Solstice, and the role of Molag Bal and Coldharbour in the story). ZOS wanted a main quest 2.0 to celebrate the 10 years, but the writing for it was just wasn't there, and year after year we keep hearing about these epic events but the story quality keeps decreasing.

So yeah, I'm with you @Soarora, if they were set on having another worm cult resurgence and having Manni return, they missed the chance of making truly impactful and shocking, give him more screen time, a foreshadowing of his eventual fate, a dramatic interaction with Vanus, like a duel or just a verbal spat. They story focused so little on him (at least in proportion to Darien's light predicament) that any minor villain could fill that spot, it's a shame having Mannimarco and Vanus Galerion in the same story and having it be so boring.

Syldras · November 19

Gabriel_H wrote: »

48 years, not 10. Just saying.

This clock counts the in-game moon cycles, if they had a meaning:
https://esoclock.uesp.net/
This is not canon, though. Officially, all chapters until the one before Solstice took place in the same year of the timeline. It wouldn't make much sense either to say almost 50 years had passed since base game, as many human characters would have already died of old age by then.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Why would we know more about him in 2E 630 than is known in 4E 201?

Why did we learn more about Sotha Sil in CWC than was ever known in the year TES3 Morrowind took place in?

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I mean, he didnt choose to do anything, his people had to get together and one find a good vessel and two conduct the proper ritual.
Also there's timey wimey stuff with Oblivion realms etc, 10 years, 40 years, doesn't mean much in the void, see Darien.

We saw at the (rather illogical) ending of Solstice Part 1 that Mannimarco's spirit/soul chose to possess Wormblood, after Wormblood failed to get his hand on the Gift of Death. So the artifact wasn't needed in the end, Mannimarco could still just possess Wormblood (by whatever means). This does lead to the question: Why didn't he do it earlier? In Coldharbor it might only have felt like days to him, that's true, but why wouldn't he have taken his chance as early as possible? He doesn't seem like a person who would just sit back and watch and rely on people he thinks of less capable than himself (which is probably almost everyone).

Soarora · November 19

Jaimeh wrote: »

So yeah, I'm with you @Soarora, if they were set on having another worm cult resurgence and having Manni return, they missed the chance of making truly impactful and shocking, give him more screen time, a foreshadowing of his eventual fate, a dramatic interaction with Vanus, like a duel or just a verbal spat. They story focused so little on him (at least in proportion to Darien's light predicament) that any minor villain could fill that spot, it's a shame having Mannimarco and Vanus Galerion in the same story and having it be so boring.

Syldras actually wrote what you attributed to me (ah, names that start with S... we all get confused for one another...). But yeah, it might make for an uneventful ending for Mannimarco to win but it's no surprise to anyone who knows about Mannimarco lore-wise that he will live, he HAS to live. ZOS could've taken advantage of that to give us a story that enhances lore (maybe we learn what's up with the mortal Mannimarco in Oblivion or witness his ascension into lichdom or the shift of the Worm Cult to pure Necromancy) as opposed to a plotted out arc. Heck, it's far-fetched, but they could've tried working with Bethesda on if they'd ever make a Daggerfall remake and set the story up as a conveyer belt of getting us to play Daggerfall.

Thevampirenight · November 20

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

it's also unclear why Mannimarco's soul can get hold of Wormblood's body in that situation when Wormblood's plan to use the artifact failed. If it's so easy without any artifacts, why didn't Mannimarco just possess him earlier?

Yep - that didn’t make any sense at all.

Can’t use artefact but then not actually needed (unless as a means to bring back Darian?) - so how does Mannimarco possess Wormblood?

And from that book - is Wormblood his nephew?!

My theory is that, Mannimarco's soul was still heavily trapped in Coldharbour he couldn't leave coldharbour no matter what option you picked in the main questline, necromancy could likely pull it out however, I think the worm cult likely required the gift of death to do that given molag bal likely had a highly tight grip on his soul and likely wouldn't allow his escape. However the Colored rooms actually went into the worm cults favor because, we see that the vestige got pulled out of hearts grief by Meridia after the vestige basically dismembers and breaks in molag bal's teeth, and did all the stuff to him that we don't get to see. My theory is the colored rooms is adjacent to coldharbour and in some way the colored rooms made it easier to pull out Mannimarco's soul from Coldharbour, allowing the wormcult to bypass coldharbours gates basically a loophole they were able to abuse which allowed them to do what they did there and why Mannimarco was able to return that quickly.. Because I think Meridia's realm would likely be very close and adjacent to Molag bal's palace in order for her to pull the vestige out of Heart's Grief. So I think the Stirk Fellowship by going to the colored rooms in an attempt to deal with wormblood actually made it possilbe for Mannimarco to escape and possess Wormblood because being in the colored rooms gave the worm cult the perfect place to bring him back. That is my theory and it explains why they decided to instantly do the ritual there as wormblood likely knew this was to his advantage.
So basically it was a happy accident by the stirk fellowship and aligned with the worm cults goals and actually made it possible. IF it wasn't for the colored rooms trip, Mannimarco likely wouldn't have returned or have returned that quickly. So I think the stirk fellowship accidently made his return possible. So basically the gist of it, the worm cult did the same thing Meridia did with the vestige. And that is how Mannimarco was able to return and escape Coldharbour. So I think they didn't have Mannimarco's soul and Mannimarco couldn't possess worm blood until that point because he didn't escape Coldharbour until after wormcultists were sent to the colored rooms which allowed the cultists to pull Mannimarcos soul out.

Jaimeh · November 20

Soarora wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

So yeah, I'm with you @Soarora, if they were set on having another worm cult resurgence and having Manni return, they missed the chance of making truly impactful and shocking, give him more screen time, a foreshadowing of his eventual fate, a dramatic interaction with Vanus, like a duel or just a verbal spat. They story focused so little on him (at least in proportion to Darien's light predicament) that any minor villain could fill that spot, it's a shame having Mannimarco and Vanus Galerion in the same story and having it be so boring.

Syldras actually wrote what you attributed to me (ah, names that start with S... we all get confused for one another...). But yeah, it might make for an uneventful ending for Mannimarco to win but it's no surprise to anyone who knows about Mannimarco lore-wise that he will live, he HAS to live. ZOS could've taken advantage of that to give us a story that enhances lore (maybe we learn what's up with the mortal Mannimarco in Oblivion or witness his ascension into lichdom or the shift of the Worm Cult to pure Necromancy) as opposed to a plotted out arc. Heck, it's far-fetched, but they could've tried working with Bethesda on if they'd ever make a Daggerfall remake and set the story up as a conveyer belt of getting us to play Daggerfall.

Oh yes, sorry Soarora, I confused your names

It would have been an opportune moment for ZOS to give us a foreshadowing of Mannimarco's fate and a link to the future games... Vanus did talk about him just a bit at the end with the Vestige but it was almost like an afterthought. Really, there are so many things they could have done differently with these two NPCs present that it does seem like a wasted opportunity.

Gabriel_H · November 20

Syldras wrote: »

We saw at the (rather illogical) ending of Solstice Part 1 that Mannimarco's spirit/soul chose to possess Wormblood, after Wormblood failed to get his hand on the Gift of Death. So the artifact wasn't needed in the end, Mannimarco could still just possess Wormblood (by whatever means). This does lead to the question: Why didn't he do it earlier? In Coldharbor it might only have felt like days to him, that's true, but why wouldn't he have taken his chance as early as possible? He doesn't seem like a person who would just sit back and watch and rely on people he thinks of less capable than himself (which is probably almost everyone).

The books I linked already explained that wasn't the plan.