If ESO wants to be a 30-year game, when does it drop old tech support?

Apollosipod · November 11

ZOS has stated they want ESO to be a 30-year game, but we are currently watching the game flail (literally and figuratively in the case of the most recent contact animation issues). If the reason for this is that old PCs and consoles are holding back the game's development, how long does it maintain support for lower end tech? How many players are at risk of being lost long-term because development is currently working to maintain older tech?

I want this game to succeed and continue to grow, but this last season has really shown the cracks...

magnusthorek · November 11

I can't answer your question but, anyone who plays for way too long like me, might remember that back in... Orsinium, if I recall correctly, they dropped support for 32-bits processors in favour of 64-bits (or something like that), maybe because Orsinium was super heavy for the time. So, perhaps, yeah, ZOS could bury support to some old fossils so we can have shiny things, like more house slots for all houses? Yes, please? He-he

frogthroat · November 11

It all comes to profit and production cost. As long as PS4 and Xbox One users keep buying ESO+, cosmetics and new expansions, and the cost of keeping the game playable on those devices is lower, the support will not be dropped.

Here is a totally professional graph created with the most cutting edge statistical tool visualising the point when the old HW support will be dropped:

Apollosipod · November 11

frogthroat wrote: »

It all comes to profit and production cost. As long as PS4 and Xbox One users keep buying ESO+, cosmetics and new expansions, and the cost of keeping the game playable on those devices is lower, the support will not be dropped.

Here is a totally professional graph created with the most cutting edge statistical tool visualising the point when the old HW support will be dropped:

Lol I loved your graph.

lostineternity · November 11

frogthroat wrote: »

It all comes to profit and production cost. As long as PS4 and Xbox One users keep buying ESO+, cosmetics and new expansions, and the cost of keeping the game playable on those devices is lower, the support will not be dropped.

Here is a totally professional graph created with the most cutting edge statistical tool visualising the point when the old HW support will be dropped:

It's not that easy. Majority of player base is not from ps4/xbox one so ZOS shouldn't make user experience worse for everyone because of small fraction of population. But this is logical conclusion and I'm not sure (especially since u35) they are capable of making logical decisions.

For me personally latest changes mean only one thing - they don't plan to support game for a long and trying to squeeze as much money as they can from current playerbase including ps4/xbox one.

I think so because they made a lot of decisions which signal that preserving current state at all cost for them is more important than aknowledgin reality and choosing improving the game and adding new features targeting it's future and not the past.

I mean even such old games as WoW did multiple engine upgrades over the years, constantly updating animationa and graphics, adding modern technologies and visual effects. It's a sign of developers wanting the game to last a long time.
On the other side ZOS cuting features and reducing quality of everything in process making the game feel even more outdated.

Tyralbin · November 11

lostineternity wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

It all comes to profit and production cost. As long as PS4 and Xbox One users keep buying ESO+, cosmetics and new expansions, and the cost of keeping the game playable on those devices is lower, the support will not be dropped.

Here is a totally professional graph created with the most cutting edge statistical tool visualising the point when the old HW support will be dropped:

It's not that easy. Majority of player base is not from ps4/xbox one so ZOS shouldn't make user experience worse for everyone because of small fraction of population. But this is logical conclusion and I'm not sure (especially since u35) they are capable of making logical decisions.

How can you say the majority of players are not from one platform or another?

How come Xbox is winning the race if they have less players?

We don't even know how many active players we have or how many are playing at a particular time.

The only people that know the figures are Bethesda/ZOS/microsoft.

lostineternity · November 11

Tyralbin wrote: »

lostineternity wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

It all comes to profit and production cost. As long as PS4 and Xbox One users keep buying ESO+, cosmetics and new expansions, and the cost of keeping the game playable on those devices is lower, the support will not be dropped.

Here is a totally professional graph created with the most cutting edge statistical tool visualising the point when the old HW support will be dropped:

It's not that easy. Majority of player base is not from ps4/xbox one so ZOS shouldn't make user experience worse for everyone because of small fraction of population. But this is logical conclusion and I'm not sure (especially since u35) they are capable of making logical decisions.

How come Xbox is winning the race if they have less players?

What race? Are you talking about Writhing wall event?
I hope you are joking that this *.png image represents some sort of progress. It's absolutely curated...

frogthroat · November 11

Tyralbin wrote: »

How come Xbox is winning the race if they have less players?

Agree on everything else you said, except this has an explanation: the counters are adjusted to each platform independently.

Tandor · November 11

Tyralbin wrote: »

lostineternity wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

It all comes to profit and production cost. As long as PS4 and Xbox One users keep buying ESO+, cosmetics and new expansions, and the cost of keeping the game playable on those devices is lower, the support will not be dropped.

Here is a totally professional graph created with the most cutting edge statistical tool visualising the point when the old HW support will be dropped:

It's not that easy. Majority of player base is not from ps4/xbox one so ZOS shouldn't make user experience worse for everyone because of small fraction of population. But this is logical conclusion and I'm not sure (especially since u35) they are capable of making logical decisions.

How can you say the majority of players are not from one platform or another?

How come Xbox is winning the race if they have less players?

We don't even know how many active players we have or how many are playing at a particular time.

The only people that know the figures are Bethesda/ZOS/microsoft.

Because the bar was set at a different level for each platform/server and has been continually adjusted since the event began?

alternatelder · November 11

I remember when players said old consoles are the reason we won't get another class, then they released Necromancer. Then players said it again, then they released Arcanist.

And the players, still on a broken record, also said we still can't have nice things because old gen is holding us back, and we have gotten companions, ToT, antiquities, scribing, subclassing, a new arena, amongst other new things we supposedly couldn't have because old consoles.

And the players continue saying it, we can't have anything new because old gen...

colossalvoids · November 11

Their "30 year" plan seems like a game that runs on any hardware you throw at it unless it's bringing a developing cost (Mac or older versions of usual OS's) more like Skyrim's that were printed for the last 15 years. A game that runs, that has a store and a subscription, also a chapter priced season-pass with something more or less new in it, at least technically new. I don't think there's more to the plan, other things seems optional and depending on development costs compared to profits they expect.

tomofhyrule · November 11

alternatelder wrote: »

I remember when players said old consoles are the reason we won't get another class, then they released Necromancer. Then players said it again, then they released Arcanist.

And the players, still on a broken record, also said we still can't have nice things because old gen is holding us back, and we have gotten companions, ToT, antiquities, scribing, subclassing, a new arena, amongst other new things we supposedly couldn't have because old consoles.

And the players continue saying it, we can't have anything new because old gen...

Well, it did actually come from Kevin, but you're right - he may not be qualified to talk about the game.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We went through with the animation reduction efforts in order to save memory for future development efforts within the game. We have heavy constraints with older platforms that require us to save as much memory as we can to ensure that future features will run on every supported platform.

twisttop138 · November 11

Tyralbin wrote: »

lostineternity wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

It all comes to profit and production cost. As long as PS4 and Xbox One users keep buying ESO+, cosmetics and new expansions, and the cost of keeping the game playable on those devices is lower, the support will not be dropped.

Here is a totally professional graph created with the most cutting edge statistical tool visualising the point when the old HW support will be dropped:

It's not that easy. Majority of player base is not from ps4/xbox one so ZOS shouldn't make user experience worse for everyone because of small fraction of population. But this is logical conclusion and I'm not sure (especially since u35) they are capable of making logical decisions.

How can you say the majority of players are not from one platform or another?

How come Xbox is winning the race if they have less players?

We don't even know how many active players we have or how many are playing at a particular time.

The only people that know the figures are Bethesda/ZOS/microsoft.

It's mildly amusing but a little wild to me that people can see that progress bar since the beginning and think it's any kind of true competition. Zos has meddled with it multiple times and surprisingly to know one Xbox is winning. Anyway.

This has been a topic of conversation in guild for a bit and really only Zos knows the metrics. There is a reason they don't end support and they will never tell us. Do I think they should end support? Sure. But only Zos knows why they don't and they ain't spilling.

alternatelder · November 11

tomofhyrule wrote: »

alternatelder wrote: »

I remember when players said old consoles are the reason we won't get another class, then they released Necromancer. Then players said it again, then they released Arcanist.

And the players, still on a broken record, also said we still can't have nice things because old gen is holding us back, and we have gotten companions, ToT, antiquities, scribing, subclassing, a new arena, amongst other new things we supposedly couldn't have because old consoles.

And the players continue saying it, we can't have anything new because old gen...

Well, it did actually come from Kevin, but you're right - he may not be qualified to talk about the game.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We went through with the animation reduction efforts in order to save memory for future development efforts within the game. We have heavy constraints with older platforms that require us to save as much memory as we can to ensure that future features will run on every supported platform.

You should read it again, seems you missed it.

lostineternity · November 11

alternatelder wrote: »

I remember when players said old consoles are the reason we won't get another class, then they released Necromancer. Then players said it again, then they released Arcanist.

And the players, still on a broken record, also said we still can't have nice things because old gen is holding us back, and we have gotten companions, ToT, antiquities, scribing, subclassing, a new arena, amongst other new things we supposedly couldn't have because old consoles.

And the players continue saying it, we can't have anything new because old gen...

Read the post from Kevin (also you can find multiple similar posts from ZOS employees in recent years) and then visit a few threads on this forum about how they broke the animations.

tomofhyrule · November 11

alternatelder wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

alternatelder wrote: »

I remember when players said old consoles are the reason we won't get another class, then they released Necromancer. Then players said it again, then they released Arcanist.

And the players, still on a broken record, also said we still can't have nice things because old gen is holding us back, and we have gotten companions, ToT, antiquities, scribing, subclassing, a new arena, amongst other new things we supposedly couldn't have because old consoles.

And the players continue saying it, we can't have anything new because old gen...

Well, it did actually come from Kevin, but you're right - he may not be qualified to talk about the game.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We went through with the animation reduction efforts in order to save memory for future development efforts within the game. We have heavy constraints with older platforms that require us to save as much memory as we can to ensure that future features will run on every supported platform.

You should read it again, seems you missed it.

???

Kevin literally said what everyone's point is: old hardware is throttling the game, and the animation changes were a direct result of trying to make more space for future additions. ZOS has confirmed multiple times that old hardware was the reason for the housing limits being what they were.

Every time ZOS has added something that "they'll never add it because of old hardware," it came at the cost of cannibalizing space from something else. That's not conjecture, that's fact, confirmed several times from the devs.

At what point are they unable to remove anything else? Or are they removing too much and actively making a worse experience for people who are not on ancient hardware?
(and yes, in the tech world, anything over about 8 years old is 'ancient.' And this is not just old-gen consoles, it's also potato PCs)

Jestir · November 11

I would think when we are into the "Next Gen" of consoles, the PS6 and the Xbox whatever if they make one, would be the time to look again that

The PS4 in particular still has a pretty strong install base world wide especially in areas where the PS5 is just a financial dream

DenverRalphy · November 11

tomofhyrule wrote: »

alternatelder wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

alternatelder wrote: »

I remember when players said old consoles are the reason we won't get another class, then they released Necromancer. Then players said it again, then they released Arcanist.

And the players, still on a broken record, also said we still can't have nice things because old gen is holding us back, and we have gotten companions, ToT, antiquities, scribing, subclassing, a new arena, amongst other new things we supposedly couldn't have because old consoles.

And the players continue saying it, we can't have anything new because old gen...

Well, it did actually come from Kevin, but you're right - he may not be qualified to talk about the game.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We went through with the animation reduction efforts in order to save memory for future development efforts within the game. We have heavy constraints with older platforms that require us to save as much memory as we can to ensure that future features will run on every supported platform.

You should read it again, seems you missed it.

???

Kevin literally said what everyone's point is: old hardware is throttling the game, and the animation changes were a direct result of trying to make more space for future additions. ZOS has confirmed multiple times that old hardware was the reason for the housing limits being what they were.

Every time ZOS has added something that "they'll never add it because of old hardware," it came at the cost of cannibalizing space from something else. That's not conjecture, that's fact, confirmed several times from the devs.

At what point are they unable to remove anything else? Or are they removing too much and actively making a worse experience for people who are not on ancient hardware?
(and yes, in the tech world, anything over about 8 years old is 'ancient.' And this is not just old-gen consoles, it's also potato PCs)

I believe his point was that Kevin did not single out Consoles in particular. Only older platforms, including potato PC rigs. Of which there are likely a comparable percentage of PC users as Console users with old gen consoles.

Renato90085 · November 11

alternatelder wrote: »

I remember when players said old consoles are the reason we won't get another class, then they released Necromancer. Then players said it again, then they released Arcanist.

And the players, still on a broken record, also said we still can't have nice things because old gen is holding us back, and we have gotten companions, ToT, antiquities, scribing, subclassing, a new arena, amongst other new things we supposedly couldn't have because old consoles.

And the players continue saying it, we can't have anything new because old gen...

I remember when zos add arcanist in game stream video ,they very proud they found a way, delete some thing to add this class,ut i forget they say this in video or forum
also,if you belive zos say the wall is really,why not belive they delete something to save the old consoles update?

DenverRalphy · November 11

Tyralbin wrote: »

lostineternity wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

It all comes to profit and production cost. As long as PS4 and Xbox One users keep buying ESO+, cosmetics and new expansions, and the cost of keeping the game playable on those devices is lower, the support will not be dropped.

Here is a totally professional graph created with the most cutting edge statistical tool visualising the point when the old HW support will be dropped:

It's not that easy. Majority of player base is not from ps4/xbox one so ZOS shouldn't make user experience worse for everyone because of small fraction of population. But this is logical conclusion and I'm not sure (especially since u35) they are capable of making logical decisions.

How can you say the majority of players are not from one platform or another?

How come Xbox is winning the race if they have less players?

We don't even know how many active players we have or how many are playing at a particular time.

The only people that know the figures are Bethesda/ZOS/microsoft.

They didn't say Playstation/Xbox in general. They stipulated PS4 and Xbox One. The older gen of the respective consoles.

I could believe with relative confidence any claim that PS4 and Xbox One players are highly unlikely to be in the majority anymore.

Stamicka · November 11

Cloud gaming still isn't a super great experience... but neither is playing on the old Xbox One or PS4 consoles. I think that they should just drop support for the old consoles, but keep the game available on the cloud for them. Regardless, that animation memory reduction change they did definitely makes me want to see old consoles dropped.

loosej · November 11

Considering ZOS is now basically Microsoft, I think it's safe to assume that keeping support for older hardware is really about XBox, and that Playstation and old pc's are mostly a side effect.

It's also pretty well established that console profits come from selling games and subscriptions, not from selling the actual hardware.

Prices for entertainment are going up, and for lots of people the budget for it is going down. I think it's reasonable to assume that forcing players to upgrade their hardware would come at the cost of losing a bunch of eso+ (and/or game pass) subscriptions, which would be a net loss...

Freelancer_ESO · November 11

Um, if you look at most of the MMO type titles that have lasted an extended period of time most of them do not have impressive graphics compared to modern titles and most have relatively low system requirements.

Keeping graphics modern is quite expensive and users that cannot run other games are an audience that is harder to lose.

Further, keep in mind that "free" support for Windows 10 will possibly end next year which will likely lead to more people that are on low end computers upgrading.

PeacefulAnarchy · November 11

There is, of course, another way. Make different clients for old consoles and space saving changes into settings for old pcs. If they had made animation reduction a settings toggle for pc and on console only forced it onto old gen consoles then they could achieve their same goals without hurting the experience for everyone else. Of course that kind of differentiation requires more work since you risk there being bugs (and possibly exploits) affecting only some of your userbase. It also probably requires some extra level of backend work to maintain parallel versions of the game with the same core features and server interaction but increasingly different client experience. But if they really want a 30 year game and also really don't want to cutoff old hardware it will eventually be the only reasonable choice.

Grizzbeorn · November 11

lostineternity wrote: »

It's not that easy. Majority of player base is not from ps4/xbox one so ZOS shouldn't make user experience worse for everyone because of small fraction of population. But this is logical conclusion...

Logic requires fact, not opinion, to work, and you have no idea of what the size of that contingent might be, no matter what you might think of your opinion.

React · November 11

Freelancer_ESO wrote: »

Um, if you look at most of the MMO type titles that have lasted an extended period of time most of them do not have impressive graphics compared to modern titles and most have relatively low system requirements.

Keeping graphics modern is quite expensive and users that cannot run other games are an audience that is harder to lose.

Further, keep in mind that "free" support for Windows 10 will possibly end next year which will likely lead to more people that are on low end computers upgrading.

This isn't about graphics, though. They are removing features and deteriorating combat through these memory reductions to create memory space for future updates on old consoles. Graphics completely aside, they are actively making the game worse for everybody to cater to 13 year old hardware.

First it was things like AWA, then the mail changes. Things that sucked for some, but weren't exactly "gamebreaking" for the majority. Now with this patch they've gone and really messed up how combat feels while introducing a plethora of combat and animation bugs. This already might be something the game will never come back from. Do we really want to see them continue down this road?

Stamicka · November 11

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I believe his point was that Kevin did not single out Consoles in particular. Only older platforms, including potato PC rigs. Of which there are likely a comparable percentage of PC users as Console users with old gen consoles.

I think this is still an old console issue and not a PC issue at all. The goal of the recent animation change was to reduce RAM usage cause I'm guessing that the old consoles are basically maxed out when running this game. The original Xbox One has like 8GB RAM and remember the OS has to use part of that. So games have very little RAM to use on those systems by today's standards. You would have to buy a whole new console to fix that problem.

If they raised RAM requirements, most people with bad PCs could upgrade their RAM for less than it costs to buy an ESO expansion. Old console players can't do that which likely makes the developers unable to simply increase RAM requirements.

So yea I'm singling out the old consoles, they have to go.

Apollosipod · November 11

alternatelder wrote: »

I remember when players said old consoles are the reason we won't get another class, then they released Necromancer. Then players said it again, then they released Arcanist.

And the players, still on a broken record, also said we still can't have nice things because old gen is holding us back, and we have gotten companions, ToT, antiquities, scribing, subclassing, a new arena, amongst other new things we supposedly couldn't have because old consoles.

And the players continue saying it, we can't have anything new because old gen...

Well, to be fair it wasn't just the players saying it. It was ZOS

Tyralbin · November 11

Another thought here.

If people keep complaining about old gen they better to be careful what they wish for.

Isn't the game itself running on old gen infrastructure.

kevkj · November 11

It sounds like the average ESO gamer doesn't have enough disposable cash to upgrade their hardware, surely the root cause are the high prices of ESO Plus, Crowns and Chapters/Pass. I therefore propose all prices be slashed in half, so our less financially solvent Tamriel citizens will redirect their funds towards hardware.

alternatelder · November 11

Apollosipod wrote: »

alternatelder wrote: »

I remember when players said old consoles are the reason we won't get another class, then they released Necromancer. Then players said it again, then they released Arcanist.

And the players, still on a broken record, also said we still can't have nice things because old gen is holding us back, and we have gotten companions, ToT, antiquities, scribing, subclassing, a new arena, amongst other new things we supposedly couldn't have because old consoles.

And the players continue saying it, we can't have anything new because old gen...

Well, to be fair it wasn't just the players saying it. It was ZOS

Lol, keep ignoring the facts I mentioned. 🤷 Sure, they said it 4 years ago that old gen is limiting it, but no mention to what extent, and then remember what we've gotten since then.