Ballgroups

Last'One · November 5

oO? Cheating in Cyrodiil? How?
Let me know please, so maybe I’ll try PvP too — maybe it’ll be more fun.
Do we have it for PvE? That would be nice; I’d use it for the same reason.
Maybe the game will make more sense with exploiters, hacks, and whatever people use.

RaidingTraiding · November 5

Ball groups now I think are the worst they have been and they have only been buffed these past couple of years. Rush of agony and shield stacking have had the greatest impact of power imo. sub classing, scribing, and hybridization also buffed them by a lot. heal stacking has been a thing the longest and has been beaten to death here, so not even worth mentioning imo.

for rush, being pulled from across the map with no counterplay drives people away more than anything. before it was much easier to predict and avoid pushes and back then it felt like if you died to those groups it was your fault for standing there. now you get pulled through walls, off stairs, back to a ledge you already jumped off of. sometimes you can block, performance permitting, but they have way more speed than you holding block, they can just catch up and fear you through block anyways.

for shields there's so many combos of sets, scribing, and class skills its easy for groups to rotate barriers and keep shields on at all times. ive seen upwards of 50k shields on groups which is just ridiculous. hybridization has really made it worse, most groups have a shielder that has 50k+ hp, when stuff scales off max hp and your heals no longer scale with max mag you get this kind of stuff. all players in the group now have 40khp with less than 20k stam and mag, and with recovery convergence, sustain is even more of a non issue. i remember when groups had 28-30k hp.

there's also a pretty big imbalance between aoe burst and defensive power of groups. aoe burst is the best way to kill these groups but in most scenarios, a well comped group can survive any bomb from a solo bomber, small group, or other ball group. ive only seen these groups die when they get bombed by another group that's stacking with their faction zerg or a second group. of course non comped and inexperienced groups will die to any of these. in the past it was pretty common for a ball group to full wipe another group in a single push, now if you see similarly skilled groups fight its a stale mate, or just 1 or 2 dying at a time.

honestly though the biggest threat to ball groups is zos, the longer they keep with this imbalanced meta, the more groups leave. at least on pc na, most groups have left and the remaining ball group players have consolidated into a few groups. a lot of the groups left are made up of fills and players from groups that have disbanded. there used to be a ton of groups on each camp also, now only gh has what's left. i think the reason it isn't felt as much is the pug population is also way down so these groups that are left end up outnumbering the pugs.

also its funny to blame the lag on addons. pretty sure lag existed on consoles when there was no addons but whatever. its clearly a server issue. i think it takes a certain amount of skills cast and server calcs from sets or whatever to feel the lag and you get to that threshold faster when a group or multiple groups are in the area. i can feel the same lag when theres a faction stack with no groups on. funny zos does all these tests with vengeance and the aoe tests a few years ago, while at the same time releasing sets with so many calcs required and checks to see if you're in combat or whatever. pretty sure they cut the server capacity / budget recently, sometime around last midyear. night and day difference on performance.

silentxthreat · November 5

[quote=also its funny to blame the lag on addons. pretty sure lag existed on consoles when there was no addons but whatever. its clearly a server issue.
[/quote]
console has always had bad lag. On pc the add on used to track damage/healing/ults puts so much strain on a server just one 12 man group will lock the server up and they know. they perform better in lag

edit to fix typo

RaidingTraiding · November 5

silentxthreat wrote: »

[quote=also its funny to blame the lag on addons. pretty sure lag existed on consoles when there was no addons but whatever. its clearly a server issue.

console has always had bad lag. On pc the add on used to track damage/healing/ults puts so much strain on a server just one 12 man group will lock the server up and they know. they perform better in lag

edit to fix typo[/quote]

not very convincing at all. i have yet to see anyone make a convincing argument that addons generate lag. from my understanding those addons just display data already collected by the api. ive also played in groups in the past and know people from other groups and there is no way a group performs better in lag or uses those addons to knowingly "lock up the server". its actually a running joke in some groups because of how ridiculous it is. when a group lags, people get stuck and it limits the movement of a group, and if you're not constantly moving youre dead. people will dc or get hit with a meteor or rush pull and get stuck in a wall or stairs. lag interferes with skill and ult coordination too and just makes the game overall unfun. only time lag plays to a groups advantage is if they're stacking with another group or their faction, in which case they're relatively safe if people get stuck. and usually if your side has the bigger numbers and you're not fighting a lot, i don't think you get as much lag. so in that case id say it would be better.

Eriboss5 · November 5

Friendly-assasin81 wrote: »

Why is there still ballgroups in cyrodiil?
Ruins the whole campaign. Its stupid to have people run around doing nothing for the caimpaign objective and are unkillable...
They almost look like they are cheating(some of them might be)....

I guess people who do Vet hard mode trials with high DPS and organized gear should be removed from the game as well with this logic. Just because people take time out of their day to do math and organized a group doesn't mean they should be punished for it.

Eriboss5 · November 5

silentxthreat wrote: »

Friendly-assasin81 wrote: »

Why is there still ballgroups in cyrodiil?
Ruins the whole campaign. Its stupid to have people run around doing nothing for the caimpaign objective and are unkillable...
They almost look like they are cheating(some of them might be)....

ball groups are the main reason of lag with the add ons they use to track everything. they kill server pop and gate camp at early am hours. we need massive nerfs to heal stacking and snow treads because in this meta the only thing that kills them is a better ball group and they just dont fight each other.

if you cant fix the problems they exploit just ban them

this is incorrect. The lag does not stem from Ballgroups. This is a server issue. Look back before Ballgrouping became a thing and the server STILL had issues then. ZOS has, possibly, not done their part for a while in resolving server related issues.

Eriboss5 · November 5

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

If you took away Proc of Agony, Invidious death and warden charm most of these ball groups couldn’t kill a fly.

This was proven by Vengeance: ball groups (mostly) refused to play because they died just like pugs. They did not show any superior skills. This means they were relying on proc sets to replace abilities.(plus mass group heals prodding absurdly high HPS)

If you watch ball groups in Zerodil you see every 8 seconds a huge 24m diameter Proc of Agony. All night long. these sets replace the need to actually use skills to lock down players.

How it works: everyone knows that the huge number of heals/ shields/ abilities they cast drastically hurts performance. My FPS can drop to 10 around ball groups. In that jumbled mess, you can get pulled absurdly far from PoA (yes it is still broken) due to Desync. You think you are 20m past the pull circle, but no. Then in the jumbled visual mess and stuttering sound of 10 fps, it is impossible to see you are charmed until “too late” !. Then the conveniently gathered players who are cc,ed (because Crutch of Agony does not induce cc immunity) get pounded by northern storm plus colossus.

The only people defending these sets are the actually large numbers of people using them. ZOS has ignored the thousands of posts about them.

Small groups who have 45k hp plus immortality due to stacked heals plus stacked shields plus 200 run speed at all times would still be impossible to kill without these sets and skills but that is a separate (but related) problem

Not wanting to participate in Vengeance isn't a ballgroup exclusive thing, lol Vengeance is a zerg fest, not skill based. Whoever has the biggest zerg will win in the button mash fest, that is boring. And not at all what an mmo rpg is supposed to play like.

That said, you're right in spirit. Either you play in a ball because youre afraid of dying alone or you play in a ball to counter other balls.... either way it's boring for anyone else.

All Zos needs to do is kill heal stacking and cross healing. Weaken healing in general, it is obnoxious. People would still be able to play with procs and there would be much less immortal groups and tanks to worry about, though not entirely.

Ball groups weren't as bad when we had sets that could kill them but they're all nerfed now. So nerfing heal stacking and cross healing is the answer.

I agree with this. ZOS needs to make it easier to kill players in Cyrodiil including Ball Groups and the Shield Block Tanks with ENDLESS RSS and Mitigation. I mean we look at Ball groups who die to other groups that are organized but can't seem to kill a block tank and we say the ball group is an issue but not the block tank? strange. I thought PvP is supposed to be Player Vs Player not Broken Block Tank Vs Faction + siege.

silentxthreat · November 5

this is incorrect. The lag does not stem from Ballgroups. This is a server issue. Look back before Ballgrouping became a thing and the server STILL had issues then. ZOS has, possibly, not done their part for a while in resolving server related issues.[/quote]

ball groups have always been a thing but we used to have 24 man groups with very little lag unless it got to a 3 way fight with a 24 man on each side.

it didnt start getting really bad until a few years ago when ball groups started using 3rd party trackers to track heal damage ults sets ect. one group will lag the server with this now but this is besides the point

ball groups atm camp a dead server and make sure it stays dead. they have taken our game hostage until prime time

Rohamad_Ali · November 5

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Muizer · November 5

If AOE heals and damage abilities had a minimum range, players wouldn't be able to ball up to create an invulnerable moving zone of destruction killing anything in its path with complete disregard for any kind of target prioritization.

If you had minimum range for healing and damage AOE, that would introduce some of the restrictions that friendly fire imposes on actual battlefields: You might get actually get spatial some separation between ranged offensive DD, melee DD and healers, which could lead to more complex group formations and manoeuvers than just indestructible balls of energy.

Evidently this can't be done on GH because it shares the rule set with PvE. That's why ZOS had to rely on countering the ball with even more destructive power, like chain reaction explosions, making the whole experience even more surreal. But on Vengeance this might be possible.

RaidingTraiding · November 5

silentxthreat wrote: »

this is incorrect. The lag does not stem from Ballgroups. This is a server issue. Look back before Ballgrouping became a thing and the server STILL had issues then. ZOS has, possibly, not done their part for a while in resolving server related issues.

ball groups have always been a thing but we used to have 24 man groups with very little lag unless it got to a 3 way fight with a 24 man on each side.

it didnt start getting really bad until a few years ago when ball groups started using 3rd party trackers to track heal damage ults sets ect. one group will lag the server with this now but this is besides the point

ball groups atm camp a dead server and make sure it stays dead. they have taken our game hostage until prime time

[/quote]

lol those addons have been around way before "a few years ago". and ball groups don't camp dead servers, they actively look for players to farm, if there are no players they leave. groups that camp dead servers are the ones that push objectives and pvdoor or roll over small groups of pugs. those aren't really ball groups. and if the server is truly dead there really isn't much lag is there? starting to think this is a troll lol

SneaK · November 5

Every ball group I’ve been in has pushed the objective, so op your main complaint feels more like it’s geared toward 6vXrs not ball groups.

If you’re getting farmed in a ring keep that has all its walls up, stop spawning there. If you’re getting farmed on a resources at Arrius while EP is on their last emp keep, stop going there. Bottom line, the AP that they chase is more often than not at the objectives, if they’re farming at a resource off the ring, it’s still pulling defenders from defending emp.

Perception…

(Leading a ball group successfully is also probably one of the hardest things there is in ESO)

Friendly-assasin81 · November 5

Lag is from the ballgroup. That is a fact. When there is a fight between 40 normal players the fps drops from a steady 100 to around 50/60. If you have a group of 12 normal players fighting you instantly know when the ballgroup enters the fight. Fps drops to 10/20....
This happens daily and cant be explained away by anything else. There are also "special" 4-6 man groups that manage to create the same lag in a tower fighting 12-15 normal players.

And to the ones asking about cheaters in cyrodiil: i have screenshots and video of people jumping from the ground and into a keep and others "walking" under the floor and collecting the scroll(our scroll from an enemy keep). These got reported and banned. We didnt help in any way with the scroll since it was cheated out and it just ruins gameplay!

KiltMaster · November 6

How to kill ballgroups 101 (yes, it IS possible!)

1) Rally your faction (if you're not in a group)
2) set up counter siege (meatbags, oils, cold fire, lancers, etc.)
3) get some negates
4) USE the siege and negates
5) Pick off the healers or the stragglers

How to avoid ballgroups 101 (yes, it IS possible, too!)
1) watch how they run - usually around/on keep walls
2) realize how their 'pull' works
3) when they go in for a pull, hold BLOCK
4) whilst holding block, walk out of the convergence or area where RoA was
4a) P.S. This is also an effective way to not get bombed
BONUS: Don't walk into obvious choke points, like those narrow parts of the palisade or around a corner where they just went

moderatelyfatman · November 6

Everything thing ZOS does these days seems to make the game worse....

shadyjane62 · November 6

I don't spend much time in Cyro now because of ballgroups. They are like the bullies that gang together in a school yard that torment you.

SCP343 · November 6

People who said nothing about sub-classing before they make it real complain about ball groups now.

Udrath · November 6

Ballgroups… the farmer playstyle. They hate random pvp with a passion

Razmirra · November 6

Ballgroups is what deters me from actively enjoying Cyro outside of the tutorial and Golden Vendor. That and unkillable players.

StihlReign · November 6

The devs enabled this behaviour for years. If the developer of the abilities can't understand how they function in practice during high level gameplay and the combat team doesn't remove the ability to synergize abilities to function the way they do, the gameplay suffers.

ZOS devs have taken the approach that problems in PvP are solved by making an armor set or another more obnoxious skill to counter complaints of obnoxious skill and gameplay mechanics, or by ignoring the complaints, rather than fixing the problem.

Cyrodiil is broken on purpose, by design. The Devs want it broken, they made it this way.

They've ignored thousands of posts of solutions, treated the community poorly, moved commenting and interactions with the community off-site and off the Official Forums and treated players with disrespect and contempt in public Q and A's for years.

Vengeance Test One was a skills test that exposed the shield and heal stacking problem to everyone and the devs inability to move to do something. Many call it a zerg fest...clearly the Arena isn't for them. The game in Cyrodiil is massive battles. In Vengeance Test 1, sometimes the larger force won, but not every battle, and not the battles where highly skilled players were are able to adapt their force and won. Everyone died to skills. What was left was an undying graveyard of proc-whiners.

MISTFORMBZZZ · November 6

SneaK wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

The problem with ballgroups is the things that everyone suggests to "eliminate" ballgroups or "counter" ballgroups is just going to make ballgroups stronger. Look at what happened when they implemented sets designed to kill ballgroups.

Pull sets (dark convergence and rush of agony) ended up being used by ballgroups to be more efficient at killing.

Sets like Vicious Death, Hrothgar's Chill, and Plaguebreak were all used by ballgroups at some point to be more efficient at killing (and vicious death is still used today because it hasn't been nerfed to the ground).

Sets like Spellshredder and oakfather's retribution are designed to enhance your combat effectiveness against ballgroups that have all the major and minor buffs, but all this does is increase the strength of a ballgroup in ball on ball situations.

If you really want to counter ballgroups without making them stronger, you want sets that will buff the heck out of siege. Combined arms combat can take out a ballgroup right now you get the tanky brawlers working in unison with people who know what they are doing with seige. The problem is that there isn't usually that much coordination with the masses of unorganized players, and because seige damage is kind of weak vs. ballgroups, your margin of error is very thin. Buffing seige damage will increase that margin of error and make these fights more fair, but if you buff seige without the requirement to equip gear, then your just making ballgroups and zergs stronger, which is what you DO NOT want to do.

So instead, what they need is specific siege sets that increase their effectiveness. Not sets like seigemaster, which just let you see through walls and reduce the damage you take. Its a great gimick to try out, but its not that effective really. What I'm talking about are sets that we could stack on dedicated siegers that would make them worthless in hand-to-hand combat, but would make them valuable assets in any siege situation. Sets that do the following:

1. Increase the fire rate and turn rate of siege weapons
2. Increase the actual damage the siege does (both direct and DOT damage)
3. Sets that increase the duration of DoT damage of seige
4. Sets that increase the effected radius of siege
5. Sets that increase your movement speed while you have a siege weapon within a short distance from you (say 8 meters)
6. Sets that increase the duration of the status change inflicted by siege
7. Sets that have unpurgable secondary effects such as snare.

If you have sets that do any/all of these, then siege then becomes a devastating tool to use against ball groups (and zergs), but it cannot be used to empower ballgroups and zergs because players who use these sets will be basically useless outside of defensive sieging, which is precisely the situation you are in most of the time when you are fighting a ballgroup. And these sets also add nothing to the group combat effectiveness, so theres no room for it within a ballgroup.

I agree with the siege remarks.

VD is still a counter to BGs. Solo bombers still disrupt ball groups.

But, the average rando in Cyro is running a selfish build with crafted sets, not Zerg busting sets. They complain about being killed by “groups” when they Zerg surf and pick the wrong fights. That’s how it is, and how it will always be. Nothing should be balanced based on these types of players. Ball groups are actually a good thing, they shouldn’t be penalized for being strategic and playing well together. It’s only a problem when your faction doesn’t have a good one.

I agree on everything you said. But as a leader of a bg i also think shield stacking is boring and i think subclassing is even more boring.

The most fun ball grouping and leading a ball group ( PS5 EU, PH ) i had before pull sets were released, before hybridisation , before subclassing, before all the BIS sets from nowadays were released. Back then you needed to have skills.

Now everyone wants to be a bg and the most are zerg surfers and avoid fights unless they have the zerg or go pvdoring and ult dumping the 4 people who are showing up for fights.

SerafinaWaterstar · November 6

Eriboss5 wrote: »

Friendly-assasin81 wrote: »

Why is there still ballgroups in cyrodiil?
Ruins the whole campaign. Its stupid to have people run around doing nothing for the caimpaign objective and are unkillable...
They almost look like they are cheating(some of them might be)....

I guess people who do Vet hard mode trials with high DPS and organized gear should be removed from the game as well with this logic. Just because people take time out of their day to do math and organized a group doesn't mean they should be punished for it.

Ridiculous comparison. Vet hm trial groups are not spoiling the game for other players or ignoring the objectives of the game.

SerafinaWaterstar · November 6

KiltMaster wrote: »

How to kill ballgroups 101 (yes, it IS possible!)

1) Rally your faction (if you're not in a group)
2) set up counter siege (meatbags, oils, cold fire, lancers, etc.)
3) get some negates
4) USE the siege and negates
5) Pick off the healers or the stragglers

How to avoid ballgroups 101 (yes, it IS possible, too!)
1) watch how they run - usually around/on keep walls
2) realize how their 'pull' works
3) when they go in for a pull, hold BLOCK
4) whilst holding block, walk out of the convergence or area where RoA was
4a) P.S. This is also an effective way to not get bombed
BONUS: Don't walk into obvious choke points, like those narrow parts of the palisade or around a corner where they just went

Yep, nothing more satisfying than a decent co-ordinated counter attack that destroys a ball group - do it enough times & they log off in a huff & you can go back to enjoying the game.

Iriidius · November 6

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Our "ball" group stayed out of vengeance in protest, not that we couldn't play zerg like everyone else.
If vengeance becomes permanent, we will adapt and people will still complain.

If you boycotted Vengeance test without even trying I doubt you will play permanent Version and if they keep GreyHost you will stay there.
Adapting takes 5 minutes when you have all skills already unlocked so ballgroups could have adapted during test.
If you play zerg like everyone else than you are like everyone else so why would players complain about you more than about everyone else.
Reality is you can’t adapt or not enaugh to get even near your former strength and farm everyone therefore try to gaslight them and ZOS that they still get farmed in Vengeance to make them and ZOS stop supporting it.

Iriidius · November 6

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Friendly-assasin81 wrote: »

When i say ballgroup, i mean a group of people that is unkillable and that doesnt play the objective in cyrodiil.
The objective is clearly to win the campaign by taking keeps and scrolls. Ballgroups never take keeps only farms players in them. Ballgroups takes scrolls and farm players with it until the scroll spawns back in the keep it was in...
Ravenwatch was okay before the procsets but is just ballgroup and mostly dead now.
I only play in Greyhost now and my group takes keeps and scrolls but just moves away(if we are fast enough) when there are towertrolls and ballgroups.
But it is still annoying when you take a keep and then have a ballgroup running in that you have to run away from because they are un killable...
I have tried Spellshredder and oakfather against them too. Does nothing.
Dont let cyrodiil die because of a few groups with small *******!

Not true at all we always go after emp for someone in our group and usually the only ones taking the ring keeps.
Most non ball groups practice PvP in zone chat. lol
Not to mention the objective in PvP is to kill players not doors.

That you take keeps only to make group members emperor while allies outside your group are unworthy to even talk with confirms rather than contradicts that you don’t play for objective of winning campaign by taking keeps. Claiming players not in ballgroup only PvP in zone chat is insulting nonsense.
Players not in a group of 12 with stats of 30 need to coordinate with players outside their group to get enaugh players to do things.
Players in different groups have differend opinions and leaders and without groupchat discussions take place in zonechat.

Four_Fingers · November 6

Same old thing, hearsay and misinformation or outright fake info cause my buddy told me.
Most don't even know the difference between lag and frame drop in the first place.

Four_Fingers · November 6

Iriidius wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Friendly-assasin81 wrote: »

When i say ballgroup, i mean a group of people that is unkillable and that doesnt play the objective in cyrodiil.
The objective is clearly to win the campaign by taking keeps and scrolls. Ballgroups never take keeps only farms players in them. Ballgroups takes scrolls and farm players with it until the scroll spawns back in the keep it was in...
Ravenwatch was okay before the procsets but is just ballgroup and mostly dead now.
I only play in Greyhost now and my group takes keeps and scrolls but just moves away(if we are fast enough) when there are towertrolls and ballgroups.
But it is still annoying when you take a keep and then have a ballgroup running in that you have to run away from because they are un killable...
I have tried Spellshredder and oakfather against them too. Does nothing.
Dont let cyrodiil die because of a few groups with small *******!

Not true at all we always go after emp for someone in our group and usually the only ones taking the ring keeps.
Most non ball groups practice PvP in zone chat. lol
Not to mention the objective in PvP is to kill players not doors.

That you take keeps only to make group members emperor while allies outside your group are unworthy to even talk with confirms rather than contradicts that you don’t play for objective of winning campaign by taking keeps. Claiming players not in ballgroup only PvP in zone chat is insulting nonsense.
Players not in a group of 12 with stats of 30 need to coordinate with players outside their group to get enaugh players to do things.
Players in different groups have differend opinions and leaders and without groupchat discussions take place in zonechat.

Well grab crown and group up, that is what the game was designed for.

BXR_Lonestar · November 6

SneaK wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

The problem with ballgroups is the things that everyone suggests to "eliminate" ballgroups or "counter" ballgroups is just going to make ballgroups stronger. Look at what happened when they implemented sets designed to kill ballgroups.

Pull sets (dark convergence and rush of agony) ended up being used by ballgroups to be more efficient at killing.

Sets like Vicious Death, Hrothgar's Chill, and Plaguebreak were all used by ballgroups at some point to be more efficient at killing (and vicious death is still used today because it hasn't been nerfed to the ground).

Sets like Spellshredder and oakfather's retribution are designed to enhance your combat effectiveness against ballgroups that have all the major and minor buffs, but all this does is increase the strength of a ballgroup in ball on ball situations.

If you really want to counter ballgroups without making them stronger, you want sets that will buff the heck out of siege. Combined arms combat can take out a ballgroup right now you get the tanky brawlers working in unison with people who know what they are doing with seige. The problem is that there isn't usually that much coordination with the masses of unorganized players, and because seige damage is kind of weak vs. ballgroups, your margin of error is very thin. Buffing seige damage will increase that margin of error and make these fights more fair, but if you buff seige without the requirement to equip gear, then your just making ballgroups and zergs stronger, which is what you DO NOT want to do.

So instead, what they need is specific siege sets that increase their effectiveness. Not sets like seigemaster, which just let you see through walls and reduce the damage you take. Its a great gimick to try out, but its not that effective really. What I'm talking about are sets that we could stack on dedicated siegers that would make them worthless in hand-to-hand combat, but would make them valuable assets in any siege situation. Sets that do the following:

1. Increase the fire rate and turn rate of siege weapons
2. Increase the actual damage the siege does (both direct and DOT damage)
3. Sets that increase the duration of DoT damage of seige
4. Sets that increase the effected radius of siege
5. Sets that increase your movement speed while you have a siege weapon within a short distance from you (say 8 meters)
6. Sets that increase the duration of the status change inflicted by siege
7. Sets that have unpurgable secondary effects such as snare.

If you have sets that do any/all of these, then siege then becomes a devastating tool to use against ball groups (and zergs), but it cannot be used to empower ballgroups and zergs because players who use these sets will be basically useless outside of defensive sieging, which is precisely the situation you are in most of the time when you are fighting a ballgroup. And these sets also add nothing to the group combat effectiveness, so theres no room for it within a ballgroup.

I agree with the siege remarks.

VD is still a counter to BGs. Solo bombers still disrupt ball groups.

But, the average rando in Cyro is running a selfish build with crafted sets, not Zerg busting sets. They complain about being killed by “groups” when they Zerg surf and pick the wrong fights. That’s how it is, and how it will always be. Nothing should be balanced based on these types of players. Ball groups are actually a good thing, they shouldn’t be penalized for being strategic and playing well together. It’s only a problem when your faction doesn’t have a good one.

VD might be a counter to ball groups, but it also empowers ballgroups to blow up groups of random players. The key to fighting ballgroups is to give the masses a weapon that the ballgroups won't want to use or can't use, and the one weapon I can guarantee you a ballgroup won't want to use is sets that ONLY empower your effectiveness with siege. I think the Siegemaster set was an attempt to give us a siege-buffing set, but it was as if Zos was too scared to make it good, because the set is absolute crap.

And everyone should keep in mind that ballgroups also have a place. Without ballgroups, everything is just zerg. Ballgroups are the counter to zergs.

RaidingTraiding · November 6

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

The problem with ballgroups is the things that everyone suggests to "eliminate" ballgroups or "counter" ballgroups is just going to make ballgroups stronger. Look at what happened when they implemented sets designed to kill ballgroups.

Pull sets (dark convergence and rush of agony) ended up being used by ballgroups to be more efficient at killing.

Sets like Vicious Death, Hrothgar's Chill, and Plaguebreak were all used by ballgroups at some point to be more efficient at killing (and vicious death is still used today because it hasn't been nerfed to the ground).

Sets like Spellshredder and oakfather's retribution are designed to enhance your combat effectiveness against ballgroups that have all the major and minor buffs, but all this does is increase the strength of a ballgroup in ball on ball situations.

If you really want to counter ballgroups without making them stronger, you want sets that will buff the heck out of siege. Combined arms combat can take out a ballgroup right now you get the tanky brawlers working in unison with people who know what they are doing with seige. The problem is that there isn't usually that much coordination with the masses of unorganized players, and because seige damage is kind of weak vs. ballgroups, your margin of error is very thin. Buffing seige damage will increase that margin of error and make these fights more fair, but if you buff seige without the requirement to equip gear, then your just making ballgroups and zergs stronger, which is what you DO NOT want to do.

So instead, what they need is specific siege sets that increase their effectiveness. Not sets like seigemaster, which just let you see through walls and reduce the damage you take. Its a great gimick to try out, but its not that effective really. What I'm talking about are sets that we could stack on dedicated siegers that would make them worthless in hand-to-hand combat, but would make them valuable assets in any siege situation. Sets that do the following:

1. Increase the fire rate and turn rate of siege weapons
2. Increase the actual damage the siege does (both direct and DOT damage)
3. Sets that increase the duration of DoT damage of seige
4. Sets that increase the effected radius of siege
5. Sets that increase your movement speed while you have a siege weapon within a short distance from you (say 8 meters)
6. Sets that increase the duration of the status change inflicted by siege
7. Sets that have unpurgable secondary effects such as snare.

If you have sets that do any/all of these, then siege then becomes a devastating tool to use against ball groups (and zergs), but it cannot be used to empower ballgroups and zergs because players who use these sets will be basically useless outside of defensive sieging, which is precisely the situation you are in most of the time when you are fighting a ballgroup. And these sets also add nothing to the group combat effectiveness, so theres no room for it within a ballgroup.

I agree with the siege remarks.

VD is still a counter to BGs. Solo bombers still disrupt ball groups.

But, the average rando in Cyro is running a selfish build with crafted sets, not Zerg busting sets. They complain about being killed by “groups” when they Zerg surf and pick the wrong fights. That’s how it is, and how it will always be. Nothing should be balanced based on these types of players. Ball groups are actually a good thing, they shouldn’t be penalized for being strategic and playing well together. It’s only a problem when your faction doesn’t have a good one.

VD might be a counter to ball groups, but it also empowers ballgroups to blow up groups of random players. The key to fighting ballgroups is to give the masses a weapon that the ballgroups won't want to use or can't use, and the one weapon I can guarantee you a ballgroup won't want to use is sets that ONLY empower your effectiveness with siege. I think the Siegemaster set was an attempt to give us a siege-buffing set, but it was as if Zos was too scared to make it good, because the set is absolute crap.

And everyone should keep in mind that ballgroups also have a place. Without ballgroups, everything is just zerg. Ballgroups are the counter to zergs.

i don't think buffing siege, be it directly or through sets, is a good solution. only the sweatier groups can survive pushing through a heavily sieged keep. ive seen plenty of lower skilled groups wipe due to siege. if only the sweatiest groups with all the buffs, heal stacking, and shields can survive through siege how can a regular player? siege is already overperforming, a lot of keep fights is just 90% siege the breach and hardly any actual pvp until the zerg pushes through and you get rolled anyways. i think itd be better to fix the defensive power of ball groups first, its already hard enough to survive siege. i also think a point and click playstyle shouldn't be as rewarding as it is. you can get hit inside your keep from almost anywhere while the sieger sits in safety with no buffs up and in no danger of being hit themselves. real engaging gameplay.

Four_Fingers · November 6

Someone on a siege is completely vulnerable, you can tell those that don't actually PvP.