Does anyone know why Huntman's Warmask was nerfed?

frogthroat · October 31

The first iteration of the Warmask was one of those you should get only if you want to fill in your sticker book. No point in using it. Then ZOS listened to the players and made so that it gives 20% damage increase to the marked target and -50% to ads. That was interesting. It would have been best in slot situationally. In some single target boss fights it would outperform Velothi. Not all, and that was why it was exciting. Having the need to think which one would be better for this boss.

...and then they made it useless. It now gives 15% damage increase and Minor Berserk (increase damage by 5%) with the same -50% to ads. Minor Berserk is a common buff. If you have a healer in your group, they will be using Combat Prayer. Many beam-builds have Camo Hunter. Anyone with Aedric Spear skill line will have it. So there is no benefit in having one more source for Minor Berserk.

So the end result is that you can choose to have 15% damage increase to everything with the loss of light attack damage with Velothi, or you can choose to have the same exact buff with the loss of 50% of damage to all ads. I mean, light attacks do bring quite a bit of damage, but is it worth it? Looks like this mythic is again one of those you fill in your sticker book and then forget about it. Shame, it could have been great. And for a short while it was.

I think I missed the notes why ZOS decided to make this mythic useless. Does anyone know why they nerfed the mythic?

Wup_sa · October 31

Because no fun allowed and they already sold the chapter with the monomyth mythic. But seriously if it was flat 20% damage increase it would have been too strong (better than prenerf malacath), it would have been quite horrible to go up against in duels or similar PvP environments.

Rkindaleft · October 31

I don’t really have an answer for you other than that it’s very clear that whoever is in charge of item set design has no idea what they’re doing.

If they didn’t want the 20% buff to be overpowered in PvP they could’ve just made the mythic only work on monsters. It wouldn’t have even been meta in some raids like Lucent Citadel where cleave dmg is king.

twisttop138 · October 31

Rkindaleft wrote: »

I don’t really have an answer for you other than that it’s very clear that whoever is in charge of item set design has no idea what they’re doing.

If they didn’t want the 20% buff to be overpowered in PvP they could’ve just made the mythic only work on monsters. It wouldn’t have even been meta in some raids like Lucent Citadel where cleave dmg is king.

This is exactly right. Damage to monsters. I have no idea why they don't do this more so that what could be awesome stuff for trials or dungeons or something doesn't hurt our pvp brethren.

frogthroat · October 31

Wup_sa wrote: »

Because no fun allowed and they already sold the chapter with the monomyth mythic. But seriously if it was flat 20% damage increase it would have been too strong (better than prenerf malacath), it would have been quite horrible to go up against in duels or similar PvP environments.

If only there was some system, like, I don't know, "Battle Spirit" or something. That way they could make the 20% damage increase and state something like "when Battle Spirit is active, this value is halved" -- because even 10% increase would be huge in PVP.

The Battle Spirit mechanism is extremely underutilised.

Other method would be to make Warmask work only against monsters.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · October 31

Minor Berserk is a common buff. If you have a healer in your group

Bold to assume we all play in groups.

virtus753 · October 31

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Minor Berserk is a common buff. If you have a healer in your group

Bold to assume we all play in groups.

The “if you have a healer” condition you cut off in your quote is followed by two examples of builds that can self-source this buff (sc. builds with camo hunter and aedric spear builds). Every single player has access to those two options, which are also strong choices.

frogthroat · October 31

virtus753 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Minor Berserk is a common buff. If you have a healer in your group

Bold to assume we all play in groups.

The “if you have a healer” condition you cut off in your quote is followed by two examples of builds that can self-source this buff (sc. builds with camo hunter and aedric spear builds). Every single player has access to those two options, which are also strong choices.

And Warden has wings, Sorc has exchange and NB has Ambush. Ambush would also give Empower for HA builds. But these are not as common in groups. In groups you will most likely have enough players with Combat Prayer, Camo Hunter and Aedric Spear skill line.

For solo I would use anyway PO for difficult content, Velothi for easier, or even Rakkhat/Oakensoul if going with HA route. So even as a solo player, nah, I don't really see the need for this new mythic as it is now.

JaxontheUnfortunate · October 31

I rally like the look and effect of this mythic but will likely never use it in content the reduction to cleave is massive and outside of niche use there are better mythics. I would love it as an outfit style.

HappyTheCamper · October 31

Wup_sa wrote: »

monomyth mythic.

Say that five times fast!

frogthroat · November 3

Seems like there are some good parses on a trial dummy with this set. So it might be that trial dummy setups and content setups are diverging even more than they are now. Highland Sentinel can have some use in content, but it's mainly used in trial dummy setups. So perhaps in the future there's trial dummy setups with the Warmask and Highland Sentinel, and then there's actual setups you use in content.

Still, a bit shame that Warmask is not going to be useful in content.

Jestir · November 3

Its meant to push single target damage at the cost of cleave....... and it is best in slot at doing that, I get that it got the nerf which doesnt absolutely destroy the current meta but I dont really get the issue.

It is a new mythic that has a legitimate use in some fights, and yes also on parse dummy, and thats a lot better than where most other mythics sit

jm42 · November 3

because ZOS are unable to balance pvp and pve separately

albertberku · November 3

As a PvE outsider, it is funny to me that this item would be considered good if the bonus would be 20%, but it is considered bad when it is 5% less and is 15%. I dont really do any PvE but ESO PvE is only about if your logs say 100k DPS or 102k DPS, and if your hardcore trial leaderbords guild will accept your current DPS, after you perfect it on a dummy for months, isn't it? lmao.

This item will definitely be nerfed after two updates as usual, but until then for the next 6 months...

... Cyrodiil, here i come with my HA Onslaught ganker, hide your 40k hp subclass PvP tanks behind your 10-man group while you still can! ^^ Because i wasn't even using Minor Berserk and was waiting for this mask, so it will be flat 20% for me..

20k Onslaught, 16k Arterial Burst... Will be juicy...

Vaqual · November 3

Mythics are supposed to alter the gameplay approach, not to exacerbate power creep on every patch cycle. Mythics lost their purpose. If you expect that they keep releasing mythics that will just slap another 5-10% on your average parse as a replacement for proper combat balance, then you are making it too easy for the devs.

frogthroat · November 3

Jestir wrote: »

Its meant to push single target damage at the cost of cleave....... and it is best in slot at doing that, I get that it got the nerf which doesnt absolutely destroy the current meta but I dont really get the issue.

It is a new mythic that has a legitimate use in some fights, and yes also on parse dummy, and thats a lot better than where most other mythics sit

Well, yes, it does bring light attack damage back into play. But that's it. So in melee range, pure single target fight it does have that much of an advantage over Velothi as long as you la-weave without a beam. If it would have also that 5% overall damage increase over Velothi, like in the original change, it would be a no brainer - in ST fights, use Warmask.

In beam builds LA damage is not as important anyway and the majority of builds are beam builds. Unfortunately when using Herald of the Tome skill line, ST build would use the magicka tentacle morph which would mean you need to switch builds using armory - this is not possible in trials.

Probably going to be bis trial dummy mythic. But in content, I think this moved from situational bis to extremely niche.

jm42 · November 3

albertberku wrote: »

As a PvE outsider, it is funny to me that this item would be considered good if the bonus would be 20%, but it is considered bad when it is 5% less and is 15%. I dont really do any PvE but ESO PvE is only about if your logs say 100k DPS or 102k DPS, and if your hardcore trial leaderbords guild will accept your current DPS, after you perfect it on a dummy for months, isn't it? lmao.

This item will definitely be nerfed after two updates as usual, but until then for the next 6 months...

... Cyrodiil, here i come with my HA Onslaught ganker, hide your 40k hp subclass PvP tanks behind your 10-man group while you still can! ^^ Because i wasn't even using Minor Berserk and was waiting for this mask, so it will be flat 20% for me.. 20k Onslaught, 16k Arterial Burst... Will be juicy...

it's not about 5%, it's about this item being very niche and almost useless now because we already have Velothi amulet. maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions without full information

albertberku · November 3

And how does velothi win against huntmans warmask in single target fights? No way you will be having higher DPS with velothi than huntman 15% increase, considering LA penalty. And it is almost useless because of the 5% difference, it would be useful when it stayed at 20%, no? That was the main argument of this thread.

And why even comparing it to another mythic? Velothi is a PvE mythic obviously, maybe they just added a PvP mythic. I dont see people rioting about Velothi just because it is a PvE mythic. Does every update always have to increase the power creep just because you want to have +2k more DPS against NPCs every update? And what kind of difference will it even make? If you get that item and have higher DPS, other players will use the exact same setup and get the same DPS as you. So in PvE scene in the bigger picture what will it change exactly if you all do 100k DPS or 102k DPS? It will just make all content easier for everyone than it is now (which is already quite easy in general tbh).

Renato90085 · November 3

Maybe waiting velothi big nerf like other old dps mystic

Sordidfairytale · November 3

It was explained to me that since the 15% bonus from Velothi is in the separate "...against monsters" category of damage, it's a multiplicative bonus, whereas Huntsman is additive. This ends up likely putting Velothi ahead of Hunstman, if you're light attack weaving is poor or if you're a beam build, even when Huntsman was at 20%.

Playnice · November 3

They adjusted it because they strictly follow a combat power budget (essentially a spreadsheet that quantifies every combat action in the game).

frogthroat · November 4

asdf

albertberku wrote: »

And how does velothi win against huntmans warmask in single target fights? No way you will be having higher DPS with velothi than huntman 15% increase, considering LA penalty. And it is almost useless because of the 5% difference, it would be useful when it stayed at 20%, no? That was the main argument of this thread.

In PVE there's currently beam meta. Light attacks are not as important in this current meta when you are beaming up to five and a half seconds with one cast. Adjusting to this new mythic requires a completely different build and that build will be slightly better in ST fights but when cleave is needed your option is pretty much runeblade beamer with Velothi and that will fall short of other beam builds. And not only because with runeblade beamer you don't get the 5% abyssal ink bonus.

So in the current meta this will not bring much to the table with the commonly used beam builds. You need to make a separate build in your armory for this and it is usable in a very small amount of content. I mean, of course I am going to do that for the few percent of content where it outperforms Velothi, but outside of prog groups and stubborn players like me I don't see this mythic gaining much of use. Maybe I am wrong and this changes the meta from beam builds to something else. Maybe. We'll see.

asdf

albertberku wrote: »

Does every update always have to increase the power creep

A situational mythic does not increase the power creep in the same way as a universally useful mythic.

jm42 · November 4

albertberku wrote: »

And how does velothi win against huntmans warmask in single target fights

except there is almost no pure single target fights, just a few instances in a coordinated premade group can utilize it. very much as comment above already explained

Orbital78 · November 4

I'm convinced the combat team has run out of ideas or are all replaced with AI. Look at all the sets this year, a whole lot of snooze fest.

ApoAlaia · November 4

Playnice wrote: »

They adjusted it because they strictly follow a combat power budget (essentially a spreadsheet that quantifies every combat action in the game).

This is the impression I got from the live stream when they made the comment regarding consumables (that if they were to touch them at all they'd have to nerf them substantially).

Ever since I have refrained from making any comments regarding combat because it was the moment I realised that in this regard the game they envision and the game I would like to play are two concepts that are incompatible with each other.

I should have seen this much earlier (probably as far back as Scalebreaker) but I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer.