The pve meta is the worst I've ever seen in any MMO at any period

Radiate77 · October 23

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

The point is that people haven chosen Arcanist over any other option when going for raw damage in full DPS spec as long as the class has been out.

Yet, it was by no means the best DD - it was however the easiest to play. Which goes back to my point about damage potential and efficiency.

Prior to sub-classing, a well played DK, Templar, Sorc was doing better damage than even a well played Arcanist.

You’re entirely wrong taking the stance that Arcanist only had such a high pick rate from it’s ease-of-use.

All of the top Leaderboards have been filled with them, these are people competing at the highest level, taking quest buffs, poisons at the start of the trial, doing practically ANYTHING for the micro advantage that will put their team above anyone else… if there was an advantage in running any other class, then that should have been visible on the leaderboards, and at the top of them.

The first patch of Arcanist you still see Dragonknights show up occasionally because people hadn’t adjusted to the new meta but they became fewer and fewer each patch.

ESO Logs. Damage scores. U45:

As you can see not the highest DPS. But:

The easiest to play.

In U45 the balance was starting to look better ever since Arcanist was released. For most content and most groups Arcanist was still by far the best class, but it's true that in the right hands other classes could parse higher, which is why subclassing felt like such a massive leap backwards when it came to balancing. It looked like the beam meta was finally coming to an end and here we are again, beaming like there is no tomorrow.
For everyone other than the top 1% of players the Arcanist meta never left though.

You mean Arcanist wasn't the highest DPS but it was the easiest to play?

Depends on what do you mean by highest dps. Highest in single target? Nope, has never been, still it was clearly the best for raids. Highest AoE damage? Yes and no. Again, it depends which fight and which type of fight we are talking about. A quick AoE fight like the triplets in HoF? Nope, necro was the best. In an extended AoE fight like Reef Guardian, arcanist was the best. If you want a one size "highest dps" class, it was arcanist, but there were individual fights where other classes which could perform better.
None of this has anything to do with the current state of the game. I wish we still had a meta even close to what we had in U45...

Exactly, no skill in the game compares to Fatecarver in terms of cleave. Using data for one trial does not equate to other classes having more damage.

You run an Arcanist for its cleave, and sure Lucent Citadel’s design favored other options, great. Yet you bring that Arcanist elsewhere, in places where adds do not chase, and all of sudden you start hitting outrageous total DPS because simple math dictates the more enemies you hit, the higher damage you’re going to do.

It’s not an ease-of-use situation, although the class is certainly easy to use, that’s not why it was so popular at the top end of gameplay.

And along with the cleave possible from Fatecarver, we’ve also seen several nerfs one after another to Azureblight.

An Azureblight build may not have been able to match Fatecarver, but it did provide a way for non-Fatecarver builds to be able to get a lot of cleave. And then it just kept getting nerfed over and over, making it so the only way to get good cleave was to use Fatecarver.

“Nerf every alternative into oblivion and leave only one solution” definitely isn’t a good way to balance that thing.

Oh I agree 100%, it’s been awhile but I do remember Templar blighters becoming Arcanist ones, and then back to Templar again.

Such weird unnecessary changes.

Araneae6537 · October 24

When you’re talking about what is absolute best, literally capable of highest damage per second, isn’t there always a single meta in any game? There are often additional support/buff DPS roles, such as a Zen/Alkosh DK, but for pure DPS, isn’t there always a single best build? The difference with subclassing is that you can create it on more than one base class now.

I get why in score pushing you’ll want to use the meta, but otherwise — obviously pull your weight in a group, but by no means does that mean you can only play what’s meta (or else find a different group/guild). For me, subclassing has given me a great deal more options that fit how I wish to play.

tomofhyrule · October 24

Araneae6537 wrote: »

When you’re talking about what is absolute best, literally capable of highest damage per second, isn’t there always a single meta in any game? There are often additional support/buff DPS roles, such as a Zen/Alkosh DK, but for pure DPS, isn’t there always a single best build? The difference with subclassing is that you can create it on more than one base class now.

I get why in score pushing you’ll want to use the meta, but otherwise — obviously pull your weight in a group, but by no means does that mean you can only play what’s meta (or else find a different group/guild). For me, subclassing has given me a great deal more options that fit how I wish to play.

The thing that a lot of people who are on the "why does everyone demand meta?" train is the difference between the meta and other builds. The balance right now is horribly skewed in such a way that playing non-meta is coming in at much lower efficiency.

Let's take an incredibly simplified example where there are 3 possible builds. Each build also has a range of damage it can do, where a good player can get the maximum out of it, and a bad player can get the minimum.

80k-100k
85k-95k
60k-105k

Now the "meta" would be "everyone bring Build 3" because it's the highest damage. But look - if someone isn't good at playing build 3, they only get 60k out of it, so if they're better with Build 1 then it's a better choice to bring build 1. It's not like there's much of a difference in the maximum output if your group has some people playing 1 instead, since if you forced them to play 3 you'd get way less damage.

Now, what is ESO like now?

50k-90k
20k-40k
120k-150k

So... why would anyone run anything but 3? If you're not good with build 3, you're still doing more than you would be with any other build. There's no way that bringing anything else is pulling your weight, because you can't even hope to match up to what you would be doing even if you were not good at that build. And if you don't like playing 3 and prefer playing 2... well, realize that your maximum output with 2 is less than half of your minimum output with 3, so yes you are quite literally throwing because "but but but I want to play the way I want!"

How do you fix this? balance. You balance the builds so that it looks more like the top example, and then someone who doesn't like to use build C does have a reasonable alternative and then they don't end up coming off as a selfish [snip] who doesn't want to contribute because they don't like the only viable build.

Of course, ESO is a lot more complicated than three builds. And now with Subclassing, we can't even balance around 7 Classes but we have to look at each line with each other line... and that's where the issues come in. If you have two DPS lines that offer all DPS passives (Herald and Assassination), there's no way that any other builds can match that output because they can't stack that many passives.

Djennku · October 24

The actual real issue regardless of anyone's viewsbased entirely on facts is that there is so much brainwashing going on forcing people to believe a 'meta' exists in ESO, and that you have to play X way or you aren't going to be good, and anything else is garbage. These are lies. Not only does a 'one way or no way' style of play (focusing on dps here), NOT EXIST, but that there are endless ways to build a character and be extremely successful, without having to kowtow to bullies and their demands.

They want to force you to think you need them and bend over backwards to get content done, and that too, is 10000% lies. Group finder exists for this reason even. Not t mention, YOU are paying for your game, and YOU should be having fun and playing how you want.

Fun fact, no one can force you to play that way if you dont want to. Stop letting bullies tell you what to do.

The game's combat and balance is in a good place, and subclassing like everything else is completely optional. Just because people hit 100k+ dps on a rigged, stationary target while also manipulating other factors to make those numbers look shinier than they really are does not mean they are the 'best' at playing a dps or even good dps players at all. I can also honestly tell you that the eso logs everyone takes as gospel, can be and are also completely rigged as well.

Half the time these builds sacrafice two important things for dealing as much damage in a single narrow situation as possible; Survivability, and Sustain. A dead DPS does negative dps, because someone else needs to stop and rez them. A dps who is alive the whole run doing 20k dps is more valuable than someone who can do 80% dps but dies to a single hit from an enemy or aoe mechanic.

Also, if you realize that you can, in fact, get content done by yourself, it hurts these people's pockets, and they'll retaliate. 'Carries' are a scam, and a way for people to illegally profit off the game. don't buy into it.

All that said, Play your way, stop letting people thing this game is all or nothing, get out there and get your content done.

Renato90085 · October 24

it sound like you only play overland or never do any real hard Pve...

Rkindaleft · 12:17AM

I feel like people who say X build can do all content have actually never played trials at the HM or trifecta level yet it gets repeated constantly on this forum. Doesn't help that people like Xynode say it it in every build they post.

Lets ignore Subclassing for a minute.

People don't understand that just because you have the option of not playing meta doesn't mean people should go into trial HM with whatever build you like. Nobody in their right mind is going to get take a group of pure Nightblade or Warden DPS that parse 100k and do something like Lucent Citadel HM or Ossein Cage HM with them. Maybe it's okay for an exposure or casual type runs where there's zero expectation of clearing, but nobody who is seriously progging the content with the expectation of getting these achievements will do so, and this is not gatekeeping. It's pretty much undeniable that classes that don't have massive cleave damage are put at a massive disadvantage in the last 3 or 4 trials, and pulling those in instead of an Arcanist or Corpseburster Cro (or even DK) you're just making the content so much harder for no reason at all, and instead of fixing the cleave issue they just made it so everyone can use Fatecarver, which endgame is sick of using.

Outside of very niche score-pushing strategies where they may find and utilize "un-conventional" setups, nobody is going to run something like Unstoppable or Dream Master with off-meta setups, extending the prog time by weeks or months, when those achievements are already difficult to obtain with running meta setups. Why would you want to make something that's already challenging and time consuming into something extremely challenging and even more time consuming just because you have some anti-meta principle?

percept · 2:52AM

Djennku wrote: »

The actual real issue regardless of anyone's viewsbased entirely on facts is that there is so much brainwashing going on forcing people to believe a 'meta' exists in ESO, and that you have to play X way or you aren't going to be good, and anything else is garbage. These are lies. Not only does a 'one way or no way' style of play (focusing on dps here), NOT EXIST, but that there are endless ways to build a character and be extremely successful, without having to kowtow to bullies and their demands.

They want to force you to think you need them and bend over backwards to get content done, and that too, is 10000% lies. Group finder exists for this reason even. Not t mention, YOU are paying for your game, and YOU should be having fun and playing how you want.

Fun fact, no one can force you to play that way if you dont want to. Stop letting bullies tell you what to do.

The game's combat and balance is in a good place, and subclassing like everything else is completely optional. Just because people hit 100k+ dps on a rigged, stationary target while also manipulating other factors to make those numbers look shinier than they really are does not mean they are the 'best' at playing a dps or even good dps players at all. I can also honestly tell you that the eso logs everyone takes as gospel, can be and are also completely rigged as well.

Half the time these builds sacrafice two important things for dealing as much damage in a single narrow situation as possible; Survivability, and Sustain. A dead DPS does negative dps, because someone else needs to stop and rez them. A dps who is alive the whole run doing 20k dps is more valuable than someone who can do 80% dps but dies to a single hit from an enemy or aoe mechanic.

Also, if you realize that you can, in fact, get content done by yourself, it hurts these people's pockets, and they'll retaliate. 'Carries' are a scam, and a way for people to illegally profit off the game. don't buy into it.

All that said, Play your way, stop letting people thing this game is all or nothing, get out there and get your content done.

This post only hurts players

Vraedlich · 3:14AM

Used to main the dragonknight whip rotation. 3 ardent flame abilities followed by whip for greater damage whip. Comparing that to arcanist beam is laughable.

Radiate77 · 4:13AM

Vraedlich wrote: »

Used to main the dragonknight whip rotation. 3 ardent flame abilities followed by whip for greater damage whip. Comparing that to arcanist beam is laughable.

Laughable or sad?

It sucks that other options people enjoyed are nowhere near close to being competitive.

moderatelyfatman · 5:09AM

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

When you’re talking about what is absolute best, literally capable of highest damage per second, isn’t there always a single meta in any game? There are often additional support/buff DPS roles, such as a Zen/Alkosh DK, but for pure DPS, isn’t there always a single best build? The difference with subclassing is that you can create it on more than one base class now.

I get why in score pushing you’ll want to use the meta, but otherwise — obviously pull your weight in a group, but by no means does that mean you can only play what’s meta (or else find a different group/guild). For me, subclassing has given me a great deal more options that fit how I wish to play.

The thing that a lot of people who are on the "why does everyone demand meta?" train is the difference between the meta and other builds. The balance right now is horribly skewed in such a way that playing non-meta is coming in at much lower efficiency.

Let's take an incredibly simplified example where there are 3 possible builds. Each build also has a range of damage it can do, where a good player can get the maximum out of it, and a bad player can get the minimum.
80k-100k

85k-95k

60k-105k

Now the "meta" would be "everyone bring Build 3" because it's the highest damage. But look - if someone isn't good at playing build 3, they only get 60k out of it, so if they're better with Build 1 then it's a better choice to bring build 1. It's not like there's much of a difference in the maximum output if your group has some people playing 1 instead, since if you forced them to play 3 you'd get way less damage.

Now, what is ESO like now?
50k-90k

20k-40k

120k-150k

So... why would anyone run anything but 3? If you're not good with build 3, you're still doing more than you would be with any other build. There's no way that bringing anything else is pulling your weight, because you can't even hope to match up to what you would be doing even if you were not good at that build. And if you don't like playing 3 and prefer playing 2... well, realize that your maximum output with 2 is less than half of your minimum output with 3, so yes you are quite literally throwing because "but but but I want to play the way I want!"

How do you fix this? balance. You balance the builds so that it looks more like the top example, and then someone who doesn't like to use build C does have a reasonable alternative and then they don't end up coming off as a selfish [snip] who doesn't want to contribute because they don't like the only viable build.

Of course, ESO is a lot more complicated than three builds. And now with Subclassing, we can't even balance around 7 Classes but we have to look at each line with each other line... and that's where the issues come in. If you have two DPS lines that offer all DPS passives (Herald and Assassination), there's no way that any other builds can match that output because they can't stack that many passives.

You're absolutely 100% spot on. It used to be that Nightblades and Necros had the highest dps but they also had the hardest rotations which meant you had to be a good player to hit those numbers.
On the flip side, I started vet trials on my Stamplar: classic high floor but low ceiling with solid dps on a simple rotation but never getting close to the sorcs and nightblade in boss fights.
This is still true with most other games but no longer the case with ESO. I still miss those days.

percept · 12:07PM

I think any thought regarding balancing or big fixes is set very far below making the next new crown house

Xarc · 12:56PM

Arcanist beam killed the pve game.

Araneae6537 · 3:01PM

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

When you’re talking about what is absolute best, literally capable of highest damage per second, isn’t there always a single meta in any game? There are often additional support/buff DPS roles, such as a Zen/Alkosh DK, but for pure DPS, isn’t there always a single best build? The difference with subclassing is that you can create it on more than one base class now.

I get why in score pushing you’ll want to use the meta, but otherwise — obviously pull your weight in a group, but by no means does that mean you can only play what’s meta (or else find a different group/guild). For me, subclassing has given me a great deal more options that fit how I wish to play.

The thing that a lot of people who are on the "why does everyone demand meta?" train is the difference between the meta and other builds. The balance right now is horribly skewed in such a way that playing non-meta is coming in at much lower efficiency.

Let's take an incredibly simplified example where there are 3 possible builds. Each build also has a range of damage it can do, where a good player can get the maximum out of it, and a bad player can get the minimum.
80k-100k

85k-95k

60k-105k

Now the "meta" would be "everyone bring Build 3" because it's the highest damage. But look - if someone isn't good at playing build 3, they only get 60k out of it, so if they're better with Build 1 then it's a better choice to bring build 1. It's not like there's much of a difference in the maximum output if your group has some people playing 1 instead, since if you forced them to play 3 you'd get way less damage.

Now, what is ESO like now?
50k-90k

20k-40k

120k-150k

So... why would anyone run anything but 3? If you're not good with build 3, you're still doing more than you would be with any other build. There's no way that bringing anything else is pulling your weight, because you can't even hope to match up to what you would be doing even if you were not good at that build. And if you don't like playing 3 and prefer playing 2... well, realize that your maximum output with 2 is less than half of your minimum output with 3, so yes you are quite literally throwing because "but but but I want to play the way I want!"

How do you fix this? balance. You balance the builds so that it looks more like the top example, and then someone who doesn't like to use build C does have a reasonable alternative and then they don't end up coming off as a selfish [snip] who doesn't want to contribute because they don't like the only viable build.

Of course, ESO is a lot more complicated than three builds. And now with Subclassing, we can't even balance around 7 Classes but we have to look at each line with each other line... and that's where the issues come in. If you have two DPS lines that offer all DPS passives (Herald and Assassination), there's no way that any other builds can match that output because they can't stack that many passives.

Thank you for the insightful explanation. Is it really that bad then? I guess I don’t have the meta build on any of my characters… I thought for PVE DPS it was Tome Herald, Aedric Spear for passives, and then either Storm Calling for the passives or Ardent Flame for DoTs. (Not that I plan to put the meta on more than one of my characters, but it would be useful for perspective.)

Ph1p · 6:14PM

Djennku wrote: »

The actual real issue regardless of anyone's viewsbased entirely on facts is that there is so much brainwashing going on forcing people to believe a 'meta' exists in ESO, and that you have to play X way or you aren't going to be good, and anything else is garbage. These are lies. Not only does a 'one way or no way' style of play (focusing on dps here), NOT EXIST, but that there are endless ways to build a character and be extremely successful, without having to kowtow to bullies and their demands.

They want to force you to think you need them and bend over backwards to get content done, and that too, is 10000% lies. Group finder exists for this reason even. Not t mention, YOU are paying for your game, and YOU should be having fun and playing how you want.

Fun fact, no one can force you to play that way if you dont want to. Stop letting bullies tell you what to do.

The game's combat and balance is in a good place, and subclassing like everything else is completely optional. Just because people hit 100k+ dps on a rigged, stationary target while also manipulating other factors to make those numbers look shinier than they really are does not mean they are the 'best' at playing a dps or even good dps players at all. I can also honestly tell you that the eso logs everyone takes as gospel, can be and are also completely rigged as well.

Half the time these builds sacrafice two important things for dealing as much damage in a single narrow situation as possible; Survivability, and Sustain. A dead DPS does negative dps, because someone else needs to stop and rez them. A dps who is alive the whole run doing 20k dps is more valuable than someone who can do 80% dps but dies to a single hit from an enemy or aoe mechanic.

Also, if you realize that you can, in fact, get content done by yourself, it hurts these people's pockets, and they'll retaliate. 'Carries' are a scam, and a way for people to illegally profit off the game. don't buy into it.

All that said, Play your way, stop letting people thing this game is all or nothing, get out there and get your content done.

When a post starts with dismissing other people's views as brainwashing, garbage, and lies, you can be sure that the rest is not worth reading...

But here's what I broadly see with regards to "meta" setups in (organized) group play: In the end, it all depends on the content you run and the ambitions of your group. For example:

If you're just running normal trials for fun, nobody cares what setup you bring, as long as you don't show up with mismatched, white gear and only light attack the enemies. Even then, many won't mind either.
If you're joining an intro run for vet trials, nobody expects you to even get close to an endgame setup. Just bring a role-appropriate build, do your best, try to learn and improve.
If you're trying progress a trial HM or even more, people will expect you to bring your A-game. What kind of specific requirements that entails and how much that includes coordinating builds depends on the trial and your group's consensus. I'd agree that groups shouldn't blindly copy "meta" comps from score pushers without understanding them, but it's completely normal to try and optimize one's chances. Pretending that this is gatekeeping is like complaining the hospital didn't hire me as their neurosurgeon, when I only have a nursing degree...

Also, from a certain point onward, this saying that a low-damage DD who stays alive is better than a high-DPS one who keeps dying becomes completely meaningless, because neither is welcome any more. Sure, when I was leading vet intro trials, I preferred people who try to play and learn the mechanics, even if this meant their DPS was low, because that was the point of the runs. But if we're progging vRG HM, you can't get away with dealing 30k DPS on Oax and saying it's because you paid attention to the meteors, when everybody else is doing 80-100k DPS AND surviving the mechanics at the same time.