Gabriel_H wrote: »

lostineternity wrote: »

"Subclassing will provide infinite diversity" they said

It does, but what ZOS continue to fail to understand is that at high difficulty end-game min/maxers rule the roost. You don't need the meta to actually complete a trifecta trial, but players will typically go the route of least resistance.

Of course there is a problem with that player philiosophy, they confuse max damage potential with efficiency. On a spreadsheet Arcanist is king, but some people may not gel with the playstyle, may be bored by it meaning they aren't engaged, and so end up doing worse on an Arcanist than on say a DK or Templar or Sorc etc.

You don't "need" best in slot optimal builds for trifecta's, but generally people don't like being the one who is holding back 11 other people, and since the beam builds are so much stronger compared to a non beam build, that exactly what you are doing if you aren't beaming. That's why people feel like they are "forced" to play arcanist, even if their raid lead has never said anything like that, people just don't like being the one who isn't carrying their own weight. It's 100% on ZOS and not on the community or the players to fix this, because they are the ones who caused it.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

I dont know about guild wars 2 as I havent played it, but I do know skinnycheeks spent months to rebalance every old set in the game. Only for zos to reject him.

... because it's a really silly idea. All sets are not supposed to be all used at end-game. Most of the sets in the game are progression sets, used to get you to the next tier.

This would become far more apparent if ZOS were to, for example, lock later content until you complete the earlier content. But obviously they don't so anyone can go to any content and get the latest desired set. If people played in chronolgically order, waiting a year before going on to the next Chapter/DLC then the sets as they are hold up.

That's not to say there aren't bumps in that road, with SPC (a fairly early set) still being the king of healing sets, but that's more to do with later sets not progressing like tank and DD sets do.

The idea that sets are used as a progression to "get to the next tier" just doesn't work in ESO, especially how the sets are right now. It's not any more difficult to get the best in slot sets than it is to get a "progression set". You can simply craft or buy Order's Wrath, Tide-Born or Deadly Strikes, and you've got like 90% of the power a BiS setup would give you, there is absolutely nothing to progress on. Normal trial sets are only around 1-3% weaker than the perfected ones and can be farmed with group finder on crafted gear. Same goes for dungeon sets, Pillar of Nirn and Aegis Caller are better than pretty much any other dungeon set, yet they are as easy to get.

Right now this is the state of the meta builds, Coral, Null Arca or Ansuul (Sul-Xan only in trash fights) + Deadly Strikes or Tide-Born. There we go, 6 sets. It doesn't matter if it's an AoE or single target fight. There is just no variety anymore, and if you think it has always been this way that there is one build which is meta everywhere, that's just not the case. Not too long ago Azureblight was used for AoE fights only, but it was gutted which caused this whole beam meta to take over, Relequen was BiS in single target fights for a long time until it was deemed too strong and got nerfed, Runecarver was a good option for very specific dot based builds, but ZOS deemed dots too strong and nerfed them and now with subclassing most class dots are stuck in useless skill lines (looking at you eruption and burning talons), Pillar of Nirn was nerfed to the ground for what ever reason etc... There was build variety once upon a time, but ZOS has gone out of their way to make sure that's not the case anymore.

Healer sets are such a joke as well. They insist on adding recovery sets for healers even though they themselves removed the need for them when they introduced hybridization, maybe they just haven't gotten the memo. It's very hard to tell that nobody wants to use them when healers opt to use tank or DD gear over any of the healer sets, maybe one day they will notice...

Gabriel_H wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

I dont know about guild wars 2 as I havent played it, but I do know skinnycheeks spent months to rebalance every old set in the game. Only for zos to reject him.

... because it's a really silly idea. All sets are not supposed to be all used at end-game. Most of the sets in the game are progression sets, used to get you to the next tier.

This would become far more apparent if ZOS were to, for example, lock later content until you complete the earlier content. But obviously they don't so anyone can go to any content and get the latest desired set. If people played in chronolgically order, waiting a year before going on to the next Chapter/DLC then the sets as they are hold up.

That's not to say there aren't bumps in that road, with SPC (a fairly early set) still being the king of healing sets, but that's more to do with later sets not progressing like tank and DD sets do.

Im not asking to for every set to be meta. Im asking every set to serve a purpose other than just being bloat.

Even if we were to follow chronological order then what excuse would be adding useless sets to new trials and dungeon?

All those sets we have in the game now and there are still very little actually decent options. There is almost no need for theorycrafting because all alternatives are nothing more than bloatwear.

They do serve a purpose. They are progression sets or they fulfill a niche role or playstyle, which is in keeping with ZOS' diversity design intention. Example: A bleed damage build isn't meta, but some people like to play that way, so we have Aegis Caller.

This is quite the opposite to what zos themselves claim to be the case. According to them it's all about horizontal progression and not vertical, and all sets have a place.
Which is plainly not true as many sets are both straight up stronger and at the same time easier to get than others: eg order's wrath, tide-born are crafted sets (easiest to get). Ow is a direct upgrade over sets like mother's sorrow/leviathan/medusa (2 of them have to be farmed in dungeons btw) etc as all give flat values but order's wrath simply gives more, those sets don't have a niche. There are extremely niche sets like unleashed ritualist that are outperformed by same general use sets even in their tiny niche (meta sets noticeably outperform ritualist on a dedicated full pet build) and there are plenty of similar examples.

And the argument of vertical progression is not valid because you can aquire stronger sets much earlier than some weaker ones like from dungeons/trials/pvp. And ofc zos themselves said that it is not the case lol

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

This is quite the opposite to what zos themselves claim to be the case. According to them it's all about horizontal progression and not vertical, and all sets have a place.
Which is plainly not true as many sets are both straight up stronger and at the same time easier to get than others: eg order's wrath, tide-born are crafted sets (easiest to get). Ow is a direct upgrade over sets like mother's sorrow/leviathan/medusa (2 of them have to be farmed in dungeons btw) etc as all give flat values but order's wrath simply gives more, those sets don't have a niche. There are extremely niche sets like unleashed ritualist that are outperformed by same general use sets even in their tiny niche (meta sets noticeably outperform ritualist on a dedicated full pet build) and there are plenty of similar examples.

And the argument of vertical progression is not valid because you can aquire stronger sets much earlier than some weaker ones like from dungeons/trials/pvp. And ofc zos themselves said that it is not the case lol

Sure, if you ignore the chronological order; when accounting for that however the sets by and large mesh, while simultaneously allowing build diversity.

Unfortunately, even though this would be true for most mmos, this is not how eso is. Not just factually but according to the DEVS too. Even if you personally see it that way the people who actually develop the game don't, meaning it's not true. Once again according to them "all sets have their place" (right now), which is fundamentally different from your reasoning. You can't just convince others zos never said those things.
The eso you are talking about is not the eso that exists in our reality, you should differentiate facts from your own vision and perspective.

I said before, I would love sets to work in a progressive way, they just don't and unfortunately horizontal progression doesn't really mesh with sets being progressive.

The other side of Horizontal progression also ties into Zyaneths point about sets should be equally viable in the right circumstances.

What ever way you cut it up, it would be great to have an overhaul, to push things more into a true and clear progression of sets around some themes/ buff/ ways of playing the game, and other focusing in performing in those niche scenarios. In those you can then have a clear progression from crafted --> PVP/Trials

In my opinion we need more viable mid game options for most roles and styles of play, and there is a whole plethora of underused gear out there that could be changed (but it won't happen)

I will say that having a bunch of useless sets doesn’t bother me at all. There are enough that we’re able to have some where “their place” is in the trash. Beyond that, there are a lot of the for-fun things that don’t have much use competitively, but make for great overland things with fun effects. I personally love off-the-wall things like Blood Moon or Ironblood for some of my overland setups because you literally can wear anything overland.

I do think that some of the meta sets should be balanced with each other, but we don’t need to bother trying to make 500+ sets equally competitive.

As for skills and lines though… yes. Absolutely.

The thing that the ZOS devs (and all of the players glazing them) like to forget is that the meta is a direct result of balance. You can’t blame players for meta chasing if literally nothing else even comes close to that. The reason the current meta is so oppressive and exclusionary is because the balance is totally [snip]ed.

Imagine a new player who wants to get into endgame. They look at one meta build, replicate it, and can do like 150k easy. Imagine then a player who’s been here since beta and has stuck to their class so hard that they are literally the best player of that class in the world. They’re probably doing like 120k tops.
In what world are people going to prefer a tough, complicated rotation that needs 11 years of practice behind it when a new player with a copypasta setup can do more?

I will say that everyone I run with in endgame, whether they like Subclassing or not, does it because they have to. I personally think it was the worst thing this game has ever done and I refuse to Subclass a single one of my alts, but every week I spend the 1500 gold to put the wrong skills on my main for my prog group because it’s expected that I play at the top of my game. The players who I see not Subclassing because they like their build are the ones who don’t do anything above vet trials, and even then they struggle to complete without some good players carrying the DPS. For all of the “but but but you can play any content with any build!” players, I have yet to see any of them post a current patch log or video of them getting Planesbreaker when nobody’s running Herald/Assassination.

It is nothing short of insulting that U48 still isn’t really trying to balance anything. That entire patch pretty well has Vengeance 4 (so, a week-long test) and the Writing Fortress (which is also only available for a single week). Two one-week-only things instead of any balance, and we’re supposed to sit with the game in this state through March?!?!
Literally what is the combat team doing? This is their job. There has been practically no effort to ‘balance’ Subclassing beyond neutering DK sustain, and that was U46. Other than that, “oh, we knew the balance would be a bit off, but we’re okay with it and we’re still collecting data.”

They painted themselves into a corner, and now they can’t get out. And instead of trying to address it, they’re just ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away. Well, it will go away… when more and more people uninstall.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Arcanist was the only parse DD two whole years before Subclassing, and before that it was Dragonknight. Subclassing did not create this problem, a lack of equal, balanced options did.

Simply untrue. It wasn't even the top parse DD.

Parse DD, Core DD, Main DD, whichever one floats your boat @Gabriel_H

The point is that people haven chosen Arcanist over any other option when going for raw damage in full DPS spec as long as the class has been out.

This thread is about the PvE meta, and the meta has been beaming for multiple years.

Reverb wrote: »

As a lot of people have said, Arcanist builds aren’t actually the best. They’re just easier to be good at. So many eso players have always struggled to be good at dps, so having an easier build lets more people be good enough to complete more content. Someone running a beam or blades build is good enough. Not great, definitely not the best, but enough. It raised the floor, which has always been badly needed.

Beam is the best cleave build and runeblades is the best single target build, unless I'm missing something

Radiate77 wrote: »

The point is that people haven chosen Arcanist over any other option when going for raw damage in full DPS spec as long as the class has been out.

Yet, it was by no means the best DD - it was however the easiest to play. Which goes back to my point about damage potential and efficiency.

Prior to sub-classing, a well played DK, Templar, Sorc was doing better damage than even a well played Arcanist.

Reverb wrote: »

As a lot of people have said, Arcanist builds aren’t actually the best. They’re just easier to be good at. So many eso players have always struggled to be good at dps, so having an easier build lets more people be good enough to complete more content. Someone running a beam or blades build is good enough. Not great, definitely not the best, but enough. It raised the floor, which has always been badly needed.

That's coping as it is. I don't know why there are people in pretty much every game abusing the most broken stuff and then trying to convince everyone that what they play is not broken, because in 1 of 50 cases there is something that is better.
Open esologs and look at leaderboards, and you'll see vast arc dominance. Not just the overall stats, but top of the top. People care about the ease of play the least. Back in the day, these people were amping their apm by 1/3 with bashveawing for a measly 2k of dps (which was insignificant even back then), people who were twisting their rotation a lot to make a bit of additional dps.

By this logic, Oakensoul would be dominating the top of the leaderboards back in the day, but despite all its popularity and retalive power it didn't.

Radiate77 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…Now we have subclassing which destroyed the last of the class balancing and variety in endgame...

Agreed with you up until this shameless jab at Subclassing.

Arcanist was the only core DD two whole years before Subclassing, and before that it was Dragonknight. Subclassing did not create this problem, a lack of equal, balanced options did.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…The saddest thing is that ZOS have totally ruined their future with subclassing: there won't be any new classes with new playstyles any more, just new skill lines to be cannibalized into the new meta.

The happiest thing is that you have no idea and could absolutely be wrong in your assessment that we will not be getting any more classes. Where you see famine, I see a feast. When they eventually release a new class to sell a Year Pass, everyone… I mean that, EVERYONE will be able to enjoy all three new skill lines instead of having to make an entirely new character to do so.

Eventually could be a long time. I still speculate that the reason for subclassing is so that instead of releasing a full class they break it up and give us just new subclasses to use. It would be a lot easier to release like a bard or true rogue as a subclass instead of a full one.

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…Now we have subclassing which destroyed the last of the class balancing and variety in endgame...

Agreed with you up until this shameless jab at Subclassing.

Arcanist was the only core DD two whole years before Subclassing, and before that it was Dragonknight. Subclassing did not create this problem, a lack of equal, balanced options did.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…The saddest thing is that ZOS have totally ruined their future with subclassing: there won't be any new classes with new playstyles any more, just new skill lines to be cannibalized into the new meta.

The happiest thing is that you have no idea and could absolutely be wrong in your assessment that we will not be getting any more classes. Where you see famine, I see a feast. When they eventually release a new class to sell a Year Pass, everyone… I mean that, EVERYONE will be able to enjoy all three new skill lines instead of having to make an entirely new character to do so.

Eventually could be a long time. I still speculate that the reason for subclassing is so that instead of releasing a full class they break it up and give us just new subclasses to use. It would be a lot easier to release like a bard or true rogue as a subclass instead of a full one.

My copium is praying that Subclassing more means “we can release more new Classes so players can start a new character of that Class, or use those lines on an existing character if they want.” There are a lot of places they could go, and that would satisfy both the players who want to just use a single line, and the players who want to make a whole new character.

Especially in light of the number of people who choose not to Subclass (which was definitely more than ZOS expected, if all of those surveys were any indication), a single skill line that you’re expected to swap off your Class lines for may not sell as well as a set of three skill lines that some players could just take as a new Class… and also then that means more player activity in the form of a new series of sets to farm in the Archive.

I honestly hope they have a new one coming, and soon - especially after this year has already made a lot of people decide they’re not gonna bother buying the next Pass. They need something big, and something they can sell, in order to get people back on board.

Yeah ZoS has dropped the ball so badly the last year I've dropped ESO plus. There's just no way to justify this much bad management anymore. The pvp meta the pve meta is all bad.

brainsnorkel wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

[...]
From page 1 of a thread back in 2023.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7940287#Comment_7940287

I made a site that scans top ranked ESO Logs reports for the most frequently seen builds in each trial. An automated version of the process that made these screen caps, intended to find performing builds you can copy for your own toons.

It makes the OP's point easy to see.

https://esobuild.com

Awesome resource. Very depressing info

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…Now we have subclassing which destroyed the last of the class balancing and variety in endgame...

Agreed with you up until this shameless jab at Subclassing.

Arcanist was the only core DD two whole years before Subclassing, and before that it was Dragonknight. Subclassing did not create this problem, a lack of equal, balanced options did.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…The saddest thing is that ZOS have totally ruined their future with subclassing: there won't be any new classes with new playstyles any more, just new skill lines to be cannibalized into the new meta.

The happiest thing is that you have no idea and could absolutely be wrong in your assessment that we will not be getting any more classes. Where you see famine, I see a feast. When they eventually release a new class to sell a Year Pass, everyone… I mean that, EVERYONE will be able to enjoy all three new skill lines instead of having to make an entirely new character to do so.

Eventually could be a long time. I still speculate that the reason for subclassing is so that instead of releasing a full class they break it up and give us just new subclasses to use. It would be a lot easier to release like a bard or true rogue as a subclass instead of a full one.

My copium is praying that Subclassing more means “we can release more new Classes so players can start a new character of that Class, or use those lines on an existing character if they want.” There are a lot of places they could go, and that would satisfy both the players who want to just use a single line, and the players who want to make a whole new character.

Especially in light of the number of people who choose not to Subclass (which was definitely more than ZOS expected, if all of those surveys were any indication), a single skill line that you’re expected to swap off your Class lines for may not sell as well as a set of three skill lines that some players could just take as a new Class… and also then that means more player activity in the form of a new series of sets to farm in the Archive.

I honestly hope they have a new one coming, and soon - especially after this year has already made a lot of people decide they’re not gonna bother buying the next Pass. They need something big, and something they can sell, in order to get people back on board.

I agree with you, but i also want to intercede a bit of reality. Its a lot easier to release and design a single subclass skill line than it would be to do a full class and balance it as a class.

And with the new focus on how ZOS is seemingly working on quality of life improvements and more one time story events, a more controlled release of new subclassing options makes sense.

I am not saying they will do it. But with subclassing the option does exist as the infrastructure is now there.

That's assuming that the Combat team ever intends to balance any classes in the first place.

(I'm sorry, that was low hanging fruit and I couldn't resist)

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

its especially kinda weird; you'd think its way easier to balance now since youre essentially balancing skill lines now and not classes and these dont need to be all equal anymore but can be balanced around a rock paper scissor approach which makes combinations also more interesting...

maybe zos has a big overhaul in the works...but given the track record and dwindling resources color me sceptical

That is the thing. With subclassing, its actually harder to balance because the power is coming from combining various passives from specific damage lines. Being able to stack damage passives on a single character is what has allowed a huge lurch in power creep to begin with. They can't just nerf the skills to bring things back in line, they'll have to nerf the passives, which players don't want them to do.

But they're going to have to do it IMO. This is something the players warned them about LONG before subclassing launched and they never listened and launched this stuff half-baked. What they're going to need to do IMO to tone down the power is make it so you can use a subclass skill line SKILLS but not the PASSIVES - you will be stuck with whatever base class passives you have.

If they do this, will people still use subclassing at all? I really don't know.