YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

ideally for me Oakensoul would be a toggle somewhere in the game instead of a Mythic.
Or allow the usage of another Mythic.
Obviously (sadly) it was not developed as an accessibility option, but it does make combat more accessible.

as a disabled girl who uses Oakensoul because the frequent bar swapping and button clicking for the buffs from timed skills was frustrating and a bit painful,
i doubt i will use another mythic for my Damage Dealer builds.
i wish i could use other Mythics like The Saint and Seducer or Rakkhat's Voidmantle as they seem fun, useful, and also make combat more accessible.

i think Oakensoul buffs would be awesome and i sadly doubt that neither buffs or my wishes are happening.

Browse YouTube for the content creator Hyperioxes (spelling?). He has a bunch of Rakhat HA builds that are de facto one-bar builds since the skills on the back-bar provide passive benefits for being slotted rather than being used. They are the best way to do HA builds, IMO.

Do you not see the issue here? Lol every other mythic in the game is better at being “one bar” than the mythic that’s actually designed for it 😂 and yeah here is a video of his explaining how bad Oakensoul is at what it’s supposed to do: https://youtu.be/1omCaqpoiMc?si=MgOzL8erwLJIWcYD

And that video is just him comparing Oakensoul to other “one bar” heavy attack builds and it’s still WAY worse than those! Not to mention fully set up two bar builds….

Oakensoul is supposed to be the solo-player-friendly option (and it is), hence all of the defensive buffs and such that are not generally needed if you're in a 12-man trial or something. If you're grouped with others in a trial you already have like 12/15 or whatever of its buffs so there really isn't much point to using it. And that's fine.

It arose at the time when there was big discourse about people who did not want to group for whatever reason. It doesn't have to be "The HA Mythic" but that playstyle is generally complementary to that solo player ethos as well as to the accessibility playstyle because HA is an easier playstyle and only having to manage one bar is easier than managing two bars.

His point in that video is that there is an odd sort of cult of personality surrounding the Mythic. You can do HA with it if you want to never think about Empower but if you are willing to source it yourself, which is relatively easy, then, yes, Rakhat is the better option because that Mythic is literally only useful for the HA style - IT is the HA Mythic. (You can also make a good HA build using Anthelmir, FWIW.)

Okay but still, literally every other mythic in the game is better than the one designed for one bar…. Including for solo play?

QB1 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

ideally for me Oakensoul would be a toggle somewhere in the game instead of a Mythic.
Or allow the usage of another Mythic.
Obviously (sadly) it was not developed as an accessibility option, but it does make combat more accessible.

as a disabled girl who uses Oakensoul because the frequent bar swapping and button clicking for the buffs from timed skills was frustrating and a bit painful,
i doubt i will use another mythic for my Damage Dealer builds.
i wish i could use other Mythics like The Saint and Seducer or Rakkhat's Voidmantle as they seem fun, useful, and also make combat more accessible.

i think Oakensoul buffs would be awesome and i sadly doubt that neither buffs or my wishes are happening.

Browse YouTube for the content creator Hyperioxes (spelling?). He has a bunch of Rakhat HA builds that are de facto one-bar builds since the skills on the back-bar provide passive benefits for being slotted rather than being used. They are the best way to do HA builds, IMO.

Do you not see the issue here? Lol every other mythic in the game is better at being “one bar” than the mythic that’s actually designed for it 😂 and yeah here is a video of his explaining how bad Oakensoul is at what it’s supposed to do: https://youtu.be/1omCaqpoiMc?si=MgOzL8erwLJIWcYD

And that video is just him comparing Oakensoul to other “one bar” heavy attack builds and it’s still WAY worse than those! Not to mention fully set up two bar builds….

Oakensoul is supposed to be the solo-player-friendly option (and it is), hence all of the defensive buffs and such that are not generally needed if you're in a 12-man trial or something. If you're grouped with others in a trial you already have like 12/15 or whatever of its buffs so there really isn't much point to using it. And that's fine.

It arose at the time when there was big discourse about people who did not want to group for whatever reason. It doesn't have to be "The HA Mythic" but that playstyle is generally complementary to that solo player ethos as well as to the accessibility playstyle because HA is an easier playstyle and only having to manage one bar is easier than managing two bars.

His point in that video is that there is an odd sort of cult of personality surrounding the Mythic. You can do HA with it if you want to never think about Empower but if you are willing to source it yourself, which is relatively easy, then, yes, Rakhat is the better option because that Mythic is literally only useful for the HA style - IT is the HA Mythic. (You can also make a good HA build using Anthelmir, FWIW.)

Okay but still, literally every other mythic in the game is better than the one designed for one bar…. Including for solo play?

That isn't true at all.

You are completely ignoring the passive defensive and utility buffs that Oakensoul gives to a solo player. Buffs that are impossible to source completely by yourself, even if you wanted to use a complex two-bar rotation while getting super tryhard with subclassing and Scribing. You get all of those buffs with perfect uptime for doing nothing other than wearing the set. That is huge for the niche of players that the set is intended for.

I don't think Oakensoul is significantly weaker than other mythics, it's just all mythics are useless compared to Velothi and Pale Order in PvE. You just have no reason to run any other mythic ever. I really wish they buffed other mythics, so there would be some variety.
There was the tiniest glimpse of something new after 2 years, but it got already nerfed on PTS, so it's just a downgraded Velothi in 99% of the encounters.
There was a time when Kilt, Sea-Serpent's Coil and Mora's Whispers were all top tier mythics (Death Dealer's Fete, Thrassian and Markyn saw some really niche use) in PvE with use cases for each of them, but now they are all just wasting inventory space. This isn't an Oakensoul specific problem, most mythics have just gotten pointless after the introduction of Velothi, and all the new ones are made for PvP.

I will be brief and to the point.
When I do veteran trials, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do PvP, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do anything else, I use Oakensoul.
I think that Oakensoul work as it should.

QB1 wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

I will be brief and to the point.
When I do veteran trials, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do PvP, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do anything else, I use Oakensoul.
I think that Oakensoul work as it should.

So Oakensoul players should not do veteran trials or PvP? Got it

You’re proving my point here…

So, how about they put back the major offensives buffs that were removed, and remove the defensive buffs of oakensoul? Would it be ok, then?

Because, sure, with oakensoul, you are less competitive, damage wise ... but you are quite a bit more durable.
You can't ask for a buff to be competitive, and retain your added survivability as well.
It's a bit too much to ask.

We don't need a second arcabeam.

QB1 wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

I will be brief and to the point.
When I do veteran trials, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do PvP, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do anything else, I use Oakensoul.
I think that Oakensoul work as it should.

So Oakensoul players should not do veteran trials or PvP? Got it

You’re proving my point here…

It seems like you don't understand what Oakensoul is all about. Not all sets and items are designed for all content and playstyle of ESO. Some are specialized for a specific part of the game. Okeansool is for players who don't want to bother with prebuffs and debuffs. It works great for that.

It's as if the someone demanded that special sets for tanks should be competitive in using for DD activities as well.

GeneralGrundmann wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

I will be brief and to the point.
When I do veteran trials, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do PvP, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do anything else, I use Oakensoul.
I think that Oakensoul work as it should.

So Oakensoul players should not do veteran trials or PvP? Got it

You’re proving my point here…

Nope, stop. That's framing.

He writes "I" and "I think".

That's his personal point of view concerning oakensoul and you are constructing something totally different out of his personal point of view.

Not really. It's literally the whole point of this post lol

preevious wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

I will be brief and to the point.
When I do veteran trials, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do PvP, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do anything else, I use Oakensoul.
I think that Oakensoul work as it should.

So Oakensoul players should not do veteran trials or PvP? Got it

You’re proving my point here…

So, how about they put back the major offensives buffs that were removed, and remove the defensive buffs of oakensoul? Would it be ok, then?

Because, sure, with oakensoul, you are less competitive, damage wise ... but you are quite a bit more durable.
You can't ask for a buff to be competitive, and retain your added survivability as well.
It's a bit too much to ask.

We don't need a second arcabeam.

Have you ever PvPed with Oakensoul as anything other than a ganker or healer? If so you'd learn pretty quick that you don't have nearly enough offense or defense to do much.

The defensive buffs are only good questing around solo and even then Pale Order outperforms Oakensoul defensively by a mile, even on one bar builds

Vaqual wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

I will be brief and to the point.
When I do veteran trials, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do PvP, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do anything else, I use Oakensoul.
I think that Oakensoul work as it should.

So Oakensoul players should not do veteran trials or PvP? Got it

You’re proving my point here…

So, how about they put back the major offensives buffs that were removed, and remove the defensive buffs of oakensoul? Would it be ok, then?

Because, sure, with oakensoul, you are less competitive, damage wise ... but you are quite a bit more durable.
You can't ask for a buff to be competitive, and retain your added survivability as well.
It's a bit too much to ask.

We don't need a second arcabeam.

Have you ever PvPed with Oakensoul as anything other than a ganker or healer? If so you'd learn pretty quick that you don't have nearly enough offense or defense to do much.

The defensive buffs are only good questing around solo and even then Pale Order outperforms Oakensoul defensively by a mile, even on one bar builds

You'll find that a the overwhelming majority of set items are in the same situation. The meta picks perform a mile above the rest.

Oakensoul may no longer sit with the cool kids in the back of the bus, but the ones who really need help are the kids who are getting beat up in the restroom stalls.

Yeah I can’t disagree with that

Yeah, I share this opinion.

Oakensoul seems to be designed for beginner/midgame-PvE.

But I have also seen hardmode trial groups where all DDs have been heavy attack oakensoul builds. Obviously not useful when fighting Relequen. Still, the tanks were two bar builds as well as the healer builds. You just don't get enough mileage from oakensoul as a tank or healer in hard content.

Dungeon Trifectas on the other hand have been done with all-oakensoul groups of four players.

Oakensoul has it's place, but it looks like it's especially in PvE. Easy farming normal difficulty dungeons for gear as solo player with a simple build for example.

Perhaps the PvE intention can also be shown with Empower, Minor Aegis and Minor Slayer that are useless in PvP.

On a side note, the opposite mythic from PvE-Oakensoul for PvP seems to be the Torc of the Last Ayleid King mythic. That's good enough for an easy start in beginner/midgame-pvp. But not so good in PvE.

Well, that's a difficult comparison.

Oakensoul gives you many buffs that are otherwise difficult to get and/or difficult to maintain solo. The 21 mil trial dummy gives you these buffs automatically, so oakensoul loses this massive advantages in this comparison. If we do a parsing comparison, it should be with the 6 mil dummy. And there oakensoul still does around 100k damage because of it's inbuild buffs, where the other not-self supporting trial-dd-builds drop to around 120k and have to work sweaty for this.

Also we shouldn't forget major resolve, minor protection and minor aegis plus the 15% on all three recovery stats for content. And empower for the heavy attacks build.

As mentioned before, oakensoul seems to be designed for (solo) beginner/advanced PVE content, including veteran and hardmode dungeons. But not so much for veteran and hardmode trials. Still, oakensoul builds can enter and beat this content, they are just not the optimal choice.

There are, relatively easy to play, "fake" one-bar builds with only passives on the back bar that get up to 120k-130k damage on the 21 mil trial dummy. And some 1,5 bar builds that go even higher. But these builds lose the nice defensive and recovery bonuses from oakensoul in real content.

GeneralGrundmann wrote: »

Well, that's a difficult comparison.

Oakensoul gives you many buffs that are otherwise difficult to get and/or difficult to maintain solo. The 21 mil trial dummy gives you these buffs automatically, so oakensoul loses this massive advantages in this comparison. If we do a parsing comparison, it should be with the 6 mil dummy. And there oakensoul still does around 100k damage because of it's inbuild buffs, where the other not-self supporting trial-dd-builds drop to around 120k and have to work sweaty for this.

Also we shouldn't forget major resolve, minor protection and minor aegis plus the 15% on all three recovery stats for content. And empower for the heavy attacks build.

As mentioned before, oakensoul seems to be designed for (solo) beginner/advanced PVE content, including veteran and hardmode dungeons. But not so much for veteran and hardmode trials. Still, oakensoul builds can enter and beat this content, they are just not the optimal choice.

There are, relatively easy to play, "fake" one-bar builds with only passives on the back bar that get up to 120k-130k damage on the 21 mil trial dummy. And some 1,5 bar builds that go even higher. But these builds lose the nice defensive and recovery bonuses from oakensoul in real content.

Nobody, oakensoul or not, do 100k on the 6 mil dummy.

But apart from that, you are right.
Oakensoul is less damaging, as it should be, since it buffs you defensively up the wazoo as well.

preevious wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

I will be brief and to the point.
When I do veteran trials, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do PvP, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do anything else, I use Oakensoul.
I think that Oakensoul work as it should.

So Oakensoul players should not do veteran trials or PvP? Got it

You’re proving my point here…

So, how about they put back the major offensives buffs that were removed, and remove the defensive buffs of oakensoul? Would it be ok, then?

Because, sure, with oakensoul, you are less competitive, damage wise ... but you are quite a bit more durable.
You can't ask for a buff to be competitive, and retain your added survivability as well.
It's a bit too much to ask.

We don't need a second arcabeam.

Have you ever PvPed with Oakensoul as anything other than a ganker or healer? If so you'd learn pretty quick that you don't have nearly enough offense or defense to do much.

The defensive buffs are only good questing around solo and even then Pale Order outperforms Oakensoul defensively by a mile, even on one bar builds

Yes, I agree with you on that one.
Actually, I mainly speak from a pve perspective, hence the misunderstanding.

Problem is, you can't be both good in pvp and in pve.

Buffing oakensoul for pvp would overtune it for pve.
There's no real solution, I guess.
Gotta accept oakensoul is a pve mythic, and that it perform very well in its niche, but poorly elsewhere. But that is normal, I guess.

It'll never be good in pvp, but is not supposed to be.

Buffing Oakensoul would not make it overpowered for PvE. Two bar builds are parsing at 175-180k currently, maybe higher now idk. Oakensoul builds can barely crack 100k

Yes, and I'll repeat myself on that one, so, please, listen :

Oakensoul, less damage, more defense.
You can't buff it's offense if you don't lower it's defense. That would be unfair. Overpowered.
You can't have something be offensively competitive if it brings you better survivability as well.
Oakensoul is fine as is, and perfect for it's niche.

Come on, it's not THAT complicated.

Evidently it IS that complicated lol either that or you're just trolling.

You are arguing about defensive buffs that are only "good" for solo PvE. They are completely redundant in any kind of group content (PvE or PvP) so your argument goes out the window. And solo PvP I can assure you those defensive buffs are nowhere near good enough when you only have 5 skills to work with, less set bonuses, etc. You're at a MASSIVE disadvantage. Don't believe me, run out in Cyrodiil for an hour on an Oakensoul build and report back. Or go challenge someone to a duel.

If Oakensoul is only meant to be an accessibility-friendly solo PvE mythic, as many people here have suggested, then I guess you can say it's OKAY at it's job, although again, Pale Order and other mythics out there can offer WAY more defensive utility, even on one bar builds. So it's not that good even at that.

As it currently stands, there is no reason for one bar players to use Oakensoul in any piece of content in ESO. Whether you're solo or group, PvE or PvP, there are other mythics that will outperform it no matter what your playstyle is and what content you're doing.

QB1 wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

I will be brief and to the point.
When I do veteran trials, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do PvP, I don't use Oakensoul.
When I do anything else, I use Oakensoul.
I think that Oakensoul work as it should.

So Oakensoul players should not do veteran trials or PvP? Got it

You’re proving my point here…

So, how about they put back the major offensives buffs that were removed, and remove the defensive buffs of oakensoul? Would it be ok, then?

Because, sure, with oakensoul, you are less competitive, damage wise ... but you are quite a bit more durable.
You can't ask for a buff to be competitive, and retain your added survivability as well.
It's a bit too much to ask.

We don't need a second arcabeam.

Have you ever PvPed with Oakensoul as anything other than a ganker or healer? If so you'd learn pretty quick that you don't have nearly enough offense or defense to do much.

The defensive buffs are only good questing around solo and even then Pale Order outperforms Oakensoul defensively by a mile, even on one bar builds

Yes, I agree with you on that one.
Actually, I mainly speak from a pve perspective, hence the misunderstanding.

Problem is, you can't be both good in pvp and in pve.

Buffing oakensoul for pvp would overtune it for pve.
There's no real solution, I guess.
Gotta accept oakensoul is a pve mythic, and that it perform very well in its niche, but poorly elsewhere. But that is normal, I guess.

It'll never be good in pvp, but is not supposed to be.

Buffing Oakensoul would not make it overpowered for PvE. Two bar builds are parsing at 175-180k currently, maybe higher now idk. Oakensoul builds can barely crack 100k

Yes, and I'll repeat myself on that one, so, please, listen :

Oakensoul, less damage, more defense.
You can't buff it's offense if you don't lower it's defense. That would be unfair. Overpowered.
You can't have something be offensively competitive if it brings you better survivability as well.
Oakensoul is fine as is, and perfect for it's niche.

Come on, it's not THAT complicated.

Evidently it IS that complicated lol either that or you're just trolling.

You are arguing about defensive buffs that are only "good" for solo PvE. They are completely redundant in any kind of group content (PvE or PvP) so your argument goes out the window. And solo PvP I can assure you those defensive buffs are nowhere near good enough when you only have 5 skills to work with, less set bonuses, etc. You're at a MASSIVE disadvantage. Don't believe me, run out in Cyrodiil for an hour on an Oakensoul build and report back. Or go challenge someone to a duel.

If Oakensoul is only meant to be an accessibility-friendly solo PvE mythic, as many people here have suggested, then I guess you can say it's OKAY at it's job, although again, Pale Order and other mythics out there can offer WAY more defensive utility, even on one bar builds. So it's not that good even at that.

As it currently stands, there is no reason for one bar players to use Oakensoul in any piece of content in ESO. Whether you're solo or group, PvE or PvP, there are other mythics that will outperform it no matter what your playstyle is and what content you're doing.

Ok, so ..

1) I wouldn't run with oakensoul in cyrodiil, because it's not made for this. There are many sets that are good for pve, bad for pvp, so, that's not an argument. It's like saying it's a shame you can't go swimming with your anvil. Why would a pve set be buffed for pvp? That does not make sense.

2)Yes, pale order brings more survivability in solo play than oakensoul. That's true. Oakensoul brings more damage, though, something you don"t aknoweledge. You get to choose if you want full survival, or a little bit of both. You can't be fully both, though. You either choose 100%/0% defense/offense, 50%/50% or 0%/100%. (notice a pattern, there?). Both are thus equally usefull in solo play. Not for the same thing. Oakensoul is the 50/50, there. If you makes it 100/50, you make it overpowered)

3)Oakensoul's usefullness falls of the more a group is organised. But it's defensive buffs are not redundant in 4-players content, nor it is in most pug trial (sure, there's gatekeeping, and that's ugly .. but in pugs, oakenbuilds perform honorably)

Problem is, you want it to be buffed so much that you are totally impervious to any argument for why it should not be. You keep making the same point, refuted a thousand times, again and again without responding to arguments.

So, I ask again, in the hope that you will answer this time : would it be ok with you if it was buffed offensively, making it competitive, but nerfed defensively? or do you really think it should bring more than 50/50?

And sure, there's are mythics that outperforms it in each of it's aspects .... but there are no mythics that outperforms it in all of it's aspects at once.

BretonMage wrote: »

By the way, Oakensoul may give you good defense, but so does Fatecarver, which provides fantastic offense and defense at the same time. So there's actually no reason not to update Oakensoul.

Comparing Fatecarver to Oakensoul doesn't really make sense to me, though. Skills and Mythics are balanced separately, and it's not like you can't use both at the same time.