Share Your Thoughts on ESO's Classes with Us

shadoza · October 16

I think I like the sub-classing. It gives the player options. Options keep the game interesting. I am still experimenting with different combinations, but this far, I like them.

Alchimiste1 · October 16

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Share Your Thoughts on ESO's Classes with Us"

Hi all. We know a lot of you have questions about the long term plan for classes and combat. We're looking to learn more about your experiences with ESO's classes, including class identity, visuals, abilities, and pain points. You can submit your feedback through the provided survey link in the article. The survey is open to any and all ESO players and will be available until October 3rd.

Thanks all!

Click here for a direct link to the survey.

I would love to share my thoughts on the class just one thing.

There are classes left ?

shadoza · October 16

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Share Your Thoughts on ESO's Classes with Us"

Hi all. We know a lot of you have questions about the long term plan for classes and combat. We're looking to learn more about your experiences with ESO's classes, including class identity, visuals, abilities, and pain points. You can submit your feedback through the provided survey link in the article. The survey is open to any and all ESO players and will be available until October 3rd.

Thanks all!

Click here for a direct link to the survey.

I would love to share my thoughts on the class just one thing.

There are classes left ?

Yes. There are classes still.

BardokRedSnow · October 16

Id be more okay with subclassing being a thing if 1. Subclassing skill lines didn't mean being able to use them at equal strength since simply having this feature already creates an immense advantage depending on builds, and 2. If the effort was made to first create a renewed interest in pure classes as is.

Its not too late to do both of these things though. Step one would be scaling back the power of subclassing, its expected anyways and honestly best for the life of the game. It needs a nerf bigtime.

Step two, the original base classes need updated graphics for their abilities, and reworking/buffing the best most iconic skills of those classes, for everyone. And to put pure classes on equal footing for builds using subclassing, maybe introduce additional customization in combination with or something like the scripts.

For instance, I'd love to change the functionality of DK wings to work more like warden wings without having to fully swap out that whole skill line. The tradeoff would be no access to crazy warden healing but still being able to retain my class identity AND making whats now a dead skill more useful. Speed boost and some long range attack protection but no snare removal etc, it seems criminal to me we get spell crafting and subclassing before getting more customization for your own class skills.

You could also limit it to the "dead" skills in each tree to liven things up without making classes broken.

So changing not only the look and color of class skills but actual functionality.

Something else I really always wanted was one new ultimate for each original class as a "master skill", a reward for pure classes. Let me morph into a dragon lol like how necromancers can morph into the bone golem things. That'd be cool. Maybe like those things in Infinite Archive.

One master skill per class, and you can add some sort of drawback like a very long cooldown time in addition to ult requirement being higher than normal. Guarantee something like that would bring some liveliness to the game.

Again Im still shocked y'all introduced subclassing before this, especially after a ten year anniversary.

AvalonRanger · October 16

Maybe, hardcore player are very interested in subclass issue. But for casual players like me,
most of class looks like same. It has own damage shield and healing skills both active and passive.
Just visual difference only, not like big game changer.

But If I consider tank, DK is best for me.
And, healer? I'll choose Arcanist.

shadoza · October 16

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Id be more okay with subclassing being a thing if 1. Subclassing skill lines didn't mean being able to use them at equal strength since simply having this feature already creates an immense advantage depending on builds, and 2. If the effort was made to first create a renewed interest in pure classes as is.

Its not too late to do both of these things though. Step one would be scaling back the power of subclassing, its expected anyways and honestly best for the life of the game. It needs a nerf bigtime.

Step two, the original base classes need updated graphics for their abilities, and reworking/buffing the best most iconic skills of those classes, for everyone. And to put pure classes on equal footing for builds using subclassing, maybe introduce additional customization in combination with or something like the scripts.

For instance, I'd love to change the functionality of DK wings to work more like warden wings without having to fully swap out that whole skill line. The tradeoff would be no access to crazy warden healing but still being able to retain my class identity AND making whats now a dead skill more useful. Speed boost and some long range attack protection but no snare removal etc, it seems criminal to me we get spell crafting and subclassing before getting more customization for your own class skills.

You could also limit it to the "dead" skills in each tree to liven things up without making classes broken.

So changing not only the look and color of class skills but actual functionality.

Something else I really always wanted was one new ultimate for each original class as a "master skill", a reward for pure classes. Let me morph into a dragon lol like how necromancers can morph into the bone golem things. That'd be cool. Maybe like those things in Infinite Archive.

One master skill per class, and you can add some sort of drawback like a very long cooldown time in addition to ult requirement being higher than normal. Guarantee something like that would bring some liveliness to the game.

Again Im still shocked y'all introduced subclassing before this, especially after a ten year anniversary.

If sub-classing meant skills were devalued, who would use them? It would kill the sub-class concept.
I think player should consider what they want more: Meta or free will. To deny other players the freedom of mixing skills because your preferred class is not the strongest anymore seems selfish to me. Meta is about evolving. Can players not evolve with the Sub-classing by experimenting with different skills?

alpha_synuclein · October 16

shadoza wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Id be more okay with subclassing being a thing if 1. Subclassing skill lines didn't mean being able to use them at equal strength since simply having this feature already creates an immense advantage depending on builds, and 2. If the effort was made to first create a renewed interest in pure classes as is.

Its not too late to do both of these things though. Step one would be scaling back the power of subclassing, its expected anyways and honestly best for the life of the game. It needs a nerf bigtime.

Step two, the original base classes need updated graphics for their abilities, and reworking/buffing the best most iconic skills of those classes, for everyone. And to put pure classes on equal footing for builds using subclassing, maybe introduce additional customization in combination with or something like the scripts.

For instance, I'd love to change the functionality of DK wings to work more like warden wings without having to fully swap out that whole skill line. The tradeoff would be no access to crazy warden healing but still being able to retain my class identity AND making whats now a dead skill more useful. Speed boost and some long range attack protection but no snare removal etc, it seems criminal to me we get spell crafting and subclassing before getting more customization for your own class skills.

You could also limit it to the "dead" skills in each tree to liven things up without making classes broken.

So changing not only the look and color of class skills but actual functionality.

Something else I really always wanted was one new ultimate for each original class as a "master skill", a reward for pure classes. Let me morph into a dragon lol like how necromancers can morph into the bone golem things. That'd be cool. Maybe like those things in Infinite Archive.

One master skill per class, and you can add some sort of drawback like a very long cooldown time in addition to ult requirement being higher than normal. Guarantee something like that would bring some liveliness to the game.

Again Im still shocked y'all introduced subclassing before this, especially after a ten year anniversary.

If sub-classing meant skills were devalued, who would use them? It would kill the sub-class concept.
I think player should consider what they want more: Meta or free will. To deny other players the freedom of mixing skills because your preferred class is not the strongest anymore seems selfish to me. Meta is about evolving. Can players not evolve with the Sub-classing by experimenting with different skills?

Not when one skill line is so far ahead in power that not using it is a self-inflicted nerf.

MISTFORMBZZZ · October 16

shadoza wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Share Your Thoughts on ESO's Classes with Us"

Hi all. We know a lot of you have questions about the long term plan for classes and combat. We're looking to learn more about your experiences with ESO's classes, including class identity, visuals, abilities, and pain points. You can submit your feedback through the provided survey link in the article. The survey is open to any and all ESO players and will be available until October 3rd.

Thanks all!

Click here for a direct link to the survey.

I would love to share my thoughts on the class just one thing.

There are classes left ?

Yes. There are classes still.

Thats false

shadoza · October 16

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Id be more okay with subclassing being a thing if 1. Subclassing skill lines didn't mean being able to use them at equal strength since simply having this feature already creates an immense advantage depending on builds, and 2. If the effort was made to first create a renewed interest in pure classes as is.

Its not too late to do both of these things though. Step one would be scaling back the power of subclassing, its expected anyways and honestly best for the life of the game. It needs a nerf bigtime.

Step two, the original base classes need updated graphics for their abilities, and reworking/buffing the best most iconic skills of those classes, for everyone. And to put pure classes on equal footing for builds using subclassing, maybe introduce additional customization in combination with or something like the scripts.

For instance, I'd love to change the functionality of DK wings to work more like warden wings without having to fully swap out that whole skill line. The tradeoff would be no access to crazy warden healing but still being able to retain my class identity AND making whats now a dead skill more useful. Speed boost and some long range attack protection but no snare removal etc, it seems criminal to me we get spell crafting and subclassing before getting more customization for your own class skills.

You could also limit it to the "dead" skills in each tree to liven things up without making classes broken.

So changing not only the look and color of class skills but actual functionality.

Something else I really always wanted was one new ultimate for each original class as a "master skill", a reward for pure classes. Let me morph into a dragon lol like how necromancers can morph into the bone golem things. That'd be cool. Maybe like those things in Infinite Archive.

One master skill per class, and you can add some sort of drawback like a very long cooldown time in addition to ult requirement being higher than normal. Guarantee something like that would bring some liveliness to the game.

Again Im still shocked y'all introduced subclassing before this, especially after a ten year anniversary.

If sub-classing meant skills were devalued, who would use them? It would kill the sub-class concept.
I think player should consider what they want more: Meta or free will. To deny other players the freedom of mixing skills because your preferred class is not the strongest anymore seems selfish to me. Meta is about evolving. Can players not evolve with the Sub-classing by experimenting with different skills?

Not when one skill line is so far ahead in power that not using it is a self-inflicted nerf.

There has always been one skill line that is preferred over the others.
I remember when players were crying over Nightblades. Another time it was the Dragon Knight. Templars were complained about being too powerful. Now it's Arcanist.
None of the skills are overpowered really. I have tried them all and have always gone back to the one I play most because of the aesthetic.
I think the dungeon gear is what needs to be nerffed.

Ph1p · October 16

shadoza wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Id be more okay with subclassing being a thing if 1. Subclassing skill lines didn't mean being able to use them at equal strength since simply having this feature already creates an immense advantage depending on builds, and 2. If the effort was made to first create a renewed interest in pure classes as is.

Its not too late to do both of these things though. Step one would be scaling back the power of subclassing, its expected anyways and honestly best for the life of the game. It needs a nerf bigtime.

Step two, the original base classes need updated graphics for their abilities, and reworking/buffing the best most iconic skills of those classes, for everyone. And to put pure classes on equal footing for builds using subclassing, maybe introduce additional customization in combination with or something like the scripts.

For instance, I'd love to change the functionality of DK wings to work more like warden wings without having to fully swap out that whole skill line. The tradeoff would be no access to crazy warden healing but still being able to retain my class identity AND making whats now a dead skill more useful. Speed boost and some long range attack protection but no snare removal etc, it seems criminal to me we get spell crafting and subclassing before getting more customization for your own class skills.

You could also limit it to the "dead" skills in each tree to liven things up without making classes broken.

So changing not only the look and color of class skills but actual functionality.

Something else I really always wanted was one new ultimate for each original class as a "master skill", a reward for pure classes. Let me morph into a dragon lol like how necromancers can morph into the bone golem things. That'd be cool. Maybe like those things in Infinite Archive.

One master skill per class, and you can add some sort of drawback like a very long cooldown time in addition to ult requirement being higher than normal. Guarantee something like that would bring some liveliness to the game.

Again Im still shocked y'all introduced subclassing before this, especially after a ten year anniversary.

If sub-classing meant skills were devalued, who would use them? It would kill the sub-class concept.
I think player should consider what they want more: Meta or free will. To deny other players the freedom of mixing skills because your preferred class is not the strongest anymore seems selfish to me. Meta is about evolving. Can players not evolve with the Sub-classing by experimenting with different skills?

I really wish this false narrative would stop, that critics of subclassing want to kill the variety and experimentation it brought and that it's the player's own fault that they chase the meta instead of sticking with their existing build.

First of all, there has been a ton of feedback given, which tried to just rein in the power creep subclassing introduced. Not to devalue it to the point of being useless, but to balance it better with respect to the builds everybody already has. Not to nerf it below single-class builds, but to limit the power increase to perhaps 5-10% rather than 20-25%. Nobody expects perfect balance, but the seeming lack of even trying to adjust things has turned off many people.

Second, not everybody wants to subclass or evolve their build - perhaps because they just spec'ed into it recently. But if the power differential is as unbalanced as it is now, people will feel less of a choice, if they want to stay competitive in group or PVP content. So your point about "meta or free will" becomes rather meaningless. It's as if the Olympics suddenly legalized powered exosuits and told athletes who don't want to use them: "Can you not evolve with technology by experimenting with different suit features?"

Third, yes the meta is always evolving, and slow, controlled power creep can actually be good for a game. It progresses players passively and can contribute to long-term motivation and engagement. But a massive jump doesn't in my opinion, not in the long run. It trivializes older content and makes designing new encounters more complicated. It significantly widens the gap between new and veteran players.

And it create a false promise of making (PVE) content more accessible, which is only true to some degree. But people forget that power creep works partially like inflation. If you give everybody more power, then expectations and thus requirements will rise as well. Some players who didn't meet the old thresholds still don't make it, blaming it on toxicity or gatekeeping, and creating more division within the community. I really thought ZOS would have understood this by now...

Kendaric · October 16

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Not when one skill line is so far ahead in power that not using it is a self-inflicted nerf.

Then nerf the overperforming skill line... it's not rocket science.

Will a new meta be created afterwards? Sure, that's the nature of the beast, but at least I won't be forced to look at those horrid neon-green beams anymore.

shadoza · October 16

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Share Your Thoughts on ESO's Classes with Us"

Hi all. We know a lot of you have questions about the long term plan for classes and combat. We're looking to learn more about your experiences with ESO's classes, including class identity, visuals, abilities, and pain points. You can submit your feedback through the provided survey link in the article. The survey is open to any and all ESO players and will be available until October 3rd.

Thanks all!

Click here for a direct link to the survey.

I would love to share my thoughts on the class just one thing.

There are classes left ?

Yes. There are classes still.

Thats false

I say it is not. I played the Nightblade class this day. I also played a Templar. I have a Sorcerer, a Dragon Knight, an Arcanist, and a Necromancer but did not play them this day.

MISTFORMBZZZ · October 16

shadoza wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Share Your Thoughts on ESO's Classes with Us"

Hi all. We know a lot of you have questions about the long term plan for classes and combat. We're looking to learn more about your experiences with ESO's classes, including class identity, visuals, abilities, and pain points. You can submit your feedback through the provided survey link in the article. The survey is open to any and all ESO players and will be available until October 3rd.

Thanks all!

Click here for a direct link to the survey.

I would love to share my thoughts on the class just one thing.

There are classes left ?

Yes. There are classes still.

Thats false

I say it is not. I played the Nightblade class this day. I also played a Templar. I have a Sorcerer, a Dragon Knight, an Arcanist, and a Necromancer but did not play them this day.

Okay but they are weaker then all the hybrid things wich run arround now and wont be accepted in any serious endgame content. Have fun with that

Kendaric · October 16

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Share Your Thoughts on ESO's Classes with Us"

Hi all. We know a lot of you have questions about the long term plan for classes and combat. We're looking to learn more about your experiences with ESO's classes, including class identity, visuals, abilities, and pain points. You can submit your feedback through the provided survey link in the article. The survey is open to any and all ESO players and will be available until October 3rd.

Thanks all!

Click here for a direct link to the survey.

I would love to share my thoughts on the class just one thing.

There are classes left ?

Yes. There are classes still.

Thats false

I say it is not. I played the Nightblade class this day. I also played a Templar. I have a Sorcerer, a Dragon Knight, an Arcanist, and a Necromancer but did not play them this day.

Okay but they are weaker then all the hybrid things wich run arround now and wont be accepted in any serious endgame content. Have fun with that

A lot of people don't care about "serious endgame content" and just want to have fun.

When they balance it in a way you endgame people are happy, I fear it won't be fun for us anymore. That's a fine line they need to walk there and I'm not sure they can't do that.

And quite frankly, when it comes to a decision between the endgame crowd and the more casual players, I hope they decide in favor of the more casual players.

SneaK · October 16

Kendaric wrote: »

A lot of people don't care about "serious endgame content" and just want to have fun.

When they balance it in a way you endgame people are happy, I fear it won't be fun for us anymore. That's a fine line they need to walk there and I'm not sure they can't do that.

And quite frankly, when it comes to a decision between the endgame crowd and the more casual players, I hope they decide in favor of the more casual players.

Wowzerzzzz

ESO existed for 10 years without subclassing, now the thought of it being gone means the game wouldn’t be fun for the casual crowd???

Casual players aren’t the ones dropping 100’s of dollars on the game, it would be in ZOS’ best interest NOT to cater to that group in lieu of the mid-high invested players.

And balance doesn’t matter for the casual crowd, there is no dark horse here, if they nerf Null Arca or Warden Signature Script exactly 0% of the casual crowd would be affected by it.

Now to be productive, here’s an idea:

If there is a leaderboard involved, Subclassing is not permitted.

tomofhyrule · October 16

SneaK wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

A lot of people don't care about "serious endgame content" and just want to have fun.

When they balance it in a way you endgame people are happy, I fear it won't be fun for us anymore. That's a fine line they need to walk there and I'm not sure they can't do that.

And quite frankly, when it comes to a decision between the endgame crowd and the more casual players, I hope they decide in favor of the more casual players.

Now to be productive, here’s an idea:

If there is a leaderboard involved, Subclassing is not permitted.

This is how I wished it had been done from the start. Heck, make Subclassing even more free and allow swapping all three lines and taking more than one from the same parent Class.

Who cares if your uber-leet 500k DPS build can melt a random world boss in a second and a half? Overland is huge and everyone deserves to have fun.

But PvP? Vet dungeons/trials? Those are competitive and need structure. Classes was the way to balance them, and now it’s gone. Anything they do to try to balance now will lead to nerfs for casuals.

I don’t understand this causal player idea of “screw balance, we’re here for fun! It doesn’t matter to me if the endgamers leave, I’ll play ESO forever!” It’s almost like they forget that ESO is not going to die because people stop playing; the greatest danger is if Microsoft decides it’s no longer profitable and just pulls the plug. And the best way to stave that off is to stop trying to drive off your most dedicated players. And when Microsoft pulls the plug, ESO is gone - it’s not Skyrim that will still be playable for years; it’s like Legends and will be deleted from the world for good.
…It really does feel at times like there are a lot of people who are excited about something that will directly lead to the end.

BXR_Lonestar · October 16

shadoza wrote: »

I think I like the sub-classing. It gives the player options. Options keep the game interesting. I am still experimenting with different combinations, but this far, I like them.

Philosophical question:

If you are given 100 options, but only 2-3 options are any good, do you really have more options?

That is kind of where we are right now. YES, there are theoretically far more options and skill combinations with subclassing. But very few of them are ACTUALLY good. the vast majority of "builds" are crap. Part of that is due to the haphazard way they implemented subclassing, but part of that is just due to the fact that any sense of balance has basically gone out the window with subclassing - what I like to consider a failure of the Dev's imagination. Now there needs to be a major balancing pass to bring things back into line, and then will people be so happy about Subclassing?

We'll see. Call me a skeptic.

Ph1p · October 16

shadoza wrote: »

I think I like the sub-classing. It gives the player options. Options keep the game interesting. I am still experimenting with different combinations, but this far, I like them.

I'm obviously not a fan of how ZOS implemented subclassing, but even so I'd fully agree with your premise here. In theory, players have more options, which generates excitement and opens up interesting possibilities for experimentation. Now, how would that be in conflict with properly balancing the power that subclassing can bring? Why couldn't we have even a semblance of both? There was an opportunity to make both sides happy and it was squandered.

After all, the writing was on the wall from the moment they announced it. Veteran players literally pointed out balancing issues within days and even before testing it on the PTS. Heck, below is something I wrote back in January 2024 in response to a suggestion to remove classes and just have people pick 3 skill lines. Meanwhile, we're asked to repeat everything we told ZOS multiple times already in a survey, as if they're lacking constructive feedback at this point...

Ph1p wrote: »

If you let players freely choose their skill lines, here's what's going to happen: Every DD will pick 3 DPS skill lines, stack all the passive boosts, combine the best damage skills, and parse 180k tomorrow. Similarly for the other roles. To counteract this massive power creep, ZOS would have to significantly adjust every single skill tree, thereby fundamentally upsetting both PVE and PVP setups.

And even if they manage to navigate this balancing nightmare successfully, it would mean that almost every existing character gets nerfed during the process. So everybody would be force to change their builds to reach their previous power level again.

Please, no! This is a 10 year old game, not an early access title. You cannot have a 1-2 year period any more where "balance patches become common". I'm not opposed to changes and additions to the game, but this would be beyond annoying and tiresome for existing players, while confusing the heck out of new joiners.

tomofhyrule · October 16

Ph1p wrote: »

After all, the writing was on the wall from the moment they announced it. Veteran players literally pointed out balancing issues within days and even before testing it on the PTS. Heck, below is something I wrote back in January 2024 in response to a suggestion to remove classes and just have people pick 3 skill lines. Meanwhile, we're asked to repeat everything we told ZOS multiple times already in a survey, as if they're lacking constructive feedback at this point...

Ph1p wrote: »

If you let players freely choose their skill lines, here's what's going to happen: Every DD will pick 3 DPS skill lines, stack all the passive boosts, combine the best damage skills, and parse 180k tomorrow. Similarly for the other roles. To counteract this massive power creep, ZOS would have to significantly adjust every single skill tree, thereby fundamentally upsetting both PVE and PVP setups.

And even if they manage to navigate this balancing nightmare successfully, it would mean that almost every existing character gets nerfed during the process. So everybody would be force to change their builds to reach their previous power level again.

Please, no! This is a 10 year old game, not an early access title. You cannot have a 1-2 year period any more where "balance patches become common". I'm not opposed to changes and additions to the game, but this would be beyond annoying and tiresome for existing players, while confusing the heck out of new joiners.

Wow, it’s almost like this is exactly how it played out.

I remember when Subclassing leaked through all of the raider discords, and everyone was saying the same thing (and even saying that the top option would be a Herald/Assassination combo). People literally warned about this on PTS. And yet, the only prep they did for Subclassing was to completely neuter DK sustain.

It boggles the mind how the combat team (you know, the people for whom ESO combat is literally their job!) didn’t foresee any of this - or at least they didn’t think it was at all concerning. All they could think about was “oh boy, we can be a full elementalist wizard, or spawn a bunch of pets until our Necro skills stop working because of the pet replacement bug!”

shadoza · October 16

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Share Your Thoughts on ESO's Classes with Us"

Hi all. We know a lot of you have questions about the long term plan for classes and combat. We're looking to learn more about your experiences with ESO's classes, including class identity, visuals, abilities, and pain points. You can submit your feedback through the provided survey link in the article. The survey is open to any and all ESO players and will be available until October 3rd.

Thanks all!

Click here for a direct link to the survey.

I would love to share my thoughts on the class just one thing.

There are classes left ?

Yes. There are classes still.

Thats false

I say it is not. I played the Nightblade class this day. I also played a Templar. I have a Sorcerer, a Dragon Knight, an Arcanist, and a Necromancer but did not play them this day.

Okay but they are weaker then all the hybrid things wich run arround now and wont be accepted in any serious endgame content. Have fun with that

What do you mean "wont be accepted in any serious endgame content?" I do content with my Class+ characters and have no issues completing content.

shadoza · October 16

Ph1p wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

I think I like the sub-classing. It gives the player options. Options keep the game interesting. I am still experimenting with different combinations, but this far, I like them.

I'm obviously not a fan of how ZOS implemented subclassing, but even so I'd fully agree with your premise here. In theory, players have more options, which generates excitement and opens up interesting possibilities for experimentation. Now, how would that be in conflict with properly balancing the power that subclassing can bring? Why couldn't we have even a semblance of both? There was an opportunity to make both sides happy and it was squandered.

After all, the writing was on the wall from the moment they announced it. Veteran players literally pointed out balancing issues within days and even before testing it on the PTS. Heck, below is something I wrote back in January 2024 in response to a suggestion to remove classes and just have people pick 3 skill lines. Meanwhile, we're asked to repeat everything we told ZOS multiple times already in a survey, as if they're lacking constructive feedback at this point...

Ph1p wrote: »

If you let players freely choose their skill lines, here's what's going to happen: Every DD will pick 3 DPS skill lines, stack all the passive boosts, combine the best damage skills, and parse 180k tomorrow. Similarly for the other roles. To counteract this massive power creep, ZOS would have to significantly adjust every single skill tree, thereby fundamentally upsetting both PVE and PVP setups.

And even if they manage to navigate this balancing nightmare successfully, it would mean that almost every existing character gets nerfed during the process. So everybody would be force to change their builds to reach their previous power level again.

Please, no! This is a 10 year old game, not an early access title. You cannot have a 1-2 year period any more where "balance patches become common". I'm not opposed to changes and additions to the game, but this would be beyond annoying and tiresome for existing players, while confusing the heck out of new joiners.

With due respect, 'veterans' are not the only players playing this game. I have been playing this game forever. I have not capped a single character yet. I have a few favorites that have been with me since the game launched, but I also have other characters that come and go because I like experimenting with different classes, skills, races, and alliances. I try different armor/jewelry builds and different companions. I have characters that hunt treasures, characters that hunt antiquities, characters that do new content. I have a character that is dedicated to breaking the law. I have a master crafter. There are already so many interesting combinations, why would someone not like having more options. If your current power-gear doesn't work for you anymore, find a new one. Find one that works best for you and you enjoy rather than using what someone else demands of you. It's a game; have fun with it.
Could it be that some of those players have invested so much into their current build that they can't function when something like this changes the balance?
Perhaps the players simply do not like having their 'power' challenged?
There are many different personalities playing this game. I think nothing will make Everyone happy; however, it seems that some players behave as if they want the game molded around their build rather than working it the other way around.
==> Just my opinion.

tomofhyrule · October 16

shadoza wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

I think I like the sub-classing. It gives the player options. Options keep the game interesting. I am still experimenting with different combinations, but this far, I like them.

I'm obviously not a fan of how ZOS implemented subclassing, but even so I'd fully agree with your premise here. In theory, players have more options, which generates excitement and opens up interesting possibilities for experimentation. Now, how would that be in conflict with properly balancing the power that subclassing can bring? Why couldn't we have even a semblance of both? There was an opportunity to make both sides happy and it was squandered.

After all, the writing was on the wall from the moment they announced it. Veteran players literally pointed out balancing issues within days and even before testing it on the PTS. Heck, below is something I wrote back in January 2024 in response to a suggestion to remove classes and just have people pick 3 skill lines. Meanwhile, we're asked to repeat everything we told ZOS multiple times already in a survey, as if they're lacking constructive feedback at this point...

Ph1p wrote: »

If you let players freely choose their skill lines, here's what's going to happen: Every DD will pick 3 DPS skill lines, stack all the passive boosts, combine the best damage skills, and parse 180k tomorrow. Similarly for the other roles. To counteract this massive power creep, ZOS would have to significantly adjust every single skill tree, thereby fundamentally upsetting both PVE and PVP setups.

And even if they manage to navigate this balancing nightmare successfully, it would mean that almost every existing character gets nerfed during the process. So everybody would be force to change their builds to reach their previous power level again.

Please, no! This is a 10 year old game, not an early access title. You cannot have a 1-2 year period any more where "balance patches become common". I'm not opposed to changes and additions to the game, but this would be beyond annoying and tiresome for existing players, while confusing the heck out of new joiners.

With due respect, 'veterans' are not the only players playing this game. I have been playing this game forever. I have not capped a single character yet. I have a few favorites that have been with me since the game launched, but I also have other characters that come and go because I like experimenting with different classes, skills, races, and alliances. I try different armor/jewelry builds and different companions. I have characters that hunt treasures, characters that hunt antiquities, characters that do new content. I have a character that is dedicated to breaking the law. I have a master crafter. There are already so many interesting combinations, why would someone not like having more options. If your current power-gear doesn't work for you anymore, find a new one. Find one that works best for you and you enjoy rather than using what someone else demands of you. It's a game; have fun with it.
Could it be that some of those players have invested so much into their current build that they can't function when something like this changes the balance?
Perhaps the players simply do not like having their 'power' challenged?
There are many different personalities playing this game. I think nothing will make Everyone happy; however, it seems that some players behave as if they want the game molded around their build rather than working it the other way around.
==> Just my opinion.

Again, this is an issue of balance.

Properly balancing everything would not affect casual players at all. As you say, you’re just exploring - it doesn’t matter to you if skill A puts out buff B or C and how that compares to passive D on line E. You’re just seeing what’s fun.

At the high end though, that is relevant. There are issues with things being off. It’s not a matter of “just have fun” when it’s competitive.

I always go back to a race analogy: if my choice is between sneakers from adidas, Puma, or New Balance. They’re similar, so there you can see which you have a preference for. But right now, ESO is letting players choose between flip-flops, stiletto heels, and rocket-powered roller skates. That’s not really a choice there, unless you’re specifically saying “I want to make things so much harder for myself”

As you said: “There are many different personalities playing this game.” So why is it okay to force a patch which is 100% designed for ultra-casuals and does not consider a single factor of the veteran players’ experience? How is that any different than them doing something that forces new players and casuals out and only caters to vets?

Most vet players offered solutions on PTS of how they could have done Subclassing in such a way as to allow casuals their fun but not force a singular meta on the high-end. Unfortunately, ZOS chose not to do so, so the two playerbases ended up in conflict.

BardokRedSnow · October 16

shadoza wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Id be more okay with subclassing being a thing if 1. Subclassing skill lines didn't mean being able to use them at equal strength since simply having this feature already creates an immense advantage depending on builds, and 2. If the effort was made to first create a renewed interest in pure classes as is.

Its not too late to do both of these things though. Step one would be scaling back the power of subclassing, its expected anyways and honestly best for the life of the game. It needs a nerf bigtime.

Step two, the original base classes need updated graphics for their abilities, and reworking/buffing the best most iconic skills of those classes, for everyone. And to put pure classes on equal footing for builds using subclassing, maybe introduce additional customization in combination with or something like the scripts.

For instance, I'd love to change the functionality of DK wings to work more like warden wings without having to fully swap out that whole skill line. The tradeoff would be no access to crazy warden healing but still being able to retain my class identity AND making whats now a dead skill more useful. Speed boost and some long range attack protection but no snare removal etc, it seems criminal to me we get spell crafting and subclassing before getting more customization for your own class skills.

You could also limit it to the "dead" skills in each tree to liven things up without making classes broken.

So changing not only the look and color of class skills but actual functionality.

Something else I really always wanted was one new ultimate for each original class as a "master skill", a reward for pure classes. Let me morph into a dragon lol like how necromancers can morph into the bone golem things. That'd be cool. Maybe like those things in Infinite Archive.

One master skill per class, and you can add some sort of drawback like a very long cooldown time in addition to ult requirement being higher than normal. Guarantee something like that would bring some liveliness to the game.

Again Im still shocked y'all introduced subclassing before this, especially after a ten year anniversary.

If sub-classing meant skills were devalued, who would use them? It would kill the sub-class concept.
I think player should consider what they want more: Meta or free will. To deny other players the freedom of mixing skills because your preferred class is not the strongest anymore seems selfish to me. Meta is about evolving. Can players not evolve with the Sub-classing by experimenting with different skills?

Meta will always be there, subclassing doesnt defy meta it defines it. You have the freedom to subclass, and the idea of subclassing if it was freedom, wouldn't come with nerfing the original classes first like DK sustain. If its about freedom why they gotta nerf me first in order to have it?

Subclassing is so advantageous that even nerfing it would not keep people from doing it, invisibility on any class, streak on any class, warden healing on any class. The nerf is necessary, its not gonna kill subclassing, it just puts it on more equal footing for those who dont want to subclass.

KapiteinBoterham · October 16

What classes?

Kendaric · October 16

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Again, this is an issue of balance.

Properly balancing everything would not affect casual players at all. As you say, you’re just exploring - it doesn’t matter to you if skill A puts out buff B or C and how that compares to passive D on line E. You’re just seeing what’s fun.

At the high end though, that is relevant. There are issues with things being off. It’s not a matter of “just have fun” when it’s competitive.

I always go back to a race analogy: if my choice is between sneakers from adidas, Puma, or New Balance. They’re similar, so there you can see which you have a preference for. But right now, ESO is letting players choose between flip-flops, stiletto heels, and rocket-powered roller skates. That’s not really a choice there, unless you’re specifically saying “I want to make things so much harder for myself”

As you said: “There are many different personalities playing this game.” So why is it okay to force a patch which is 100% designed for ultra-casuals and does not consider a single factor of the veteran players’ experience? How is that any different than them doing something that forces new players and casuals out and only caters to vets?

Most vet players offered solutions on PTS of how they could have done Subclassing in such a way as to allow casuals their fun but not force a singular meta on the high-end. Unfortunately, ZOS chose not to do so, so the two playerbases ended up in conflict.

I doubt anyone is against better balancing.

Should overperforming skills be nerfed? Absolutely. Will ZOS do that? I doubt it or they'd have nerfed the arcanist I long time ago.
So, what else could they do? Buffing the passives if you stay pure class? Wouldn't that be unbalanced too, though?
Allow only active skills to be taken when subclassing? I'll be blunt, that basically ruin subclassing for me as I rarely use actives class skills and basically subclass only to take the passives.

SCP343 · October 16

I'm not taking that two-hour test. At this point, class identity is nonexistent. While you can roleplay during quests, in PvE and PvP. I'd like to see one of you stream using only one class skills. I'm curious if you can find any identity and enjoyment there by dying 20 times per battlegrounds.

BardokRedSnow · October 16

SCP343 wrote: »

I'm not taking that two-hour test. At this point, class identity is nonexistent. While you can roleplay during quests, in PvE and PvP. I'd like to see one of you stream using only one class skills. I'm curious if you can find any identity and enjoyment there by dying 20 times per battlegrounds.

Watching Zos try to pvp in their own game (not vengeance) would be very entertaining.

tomofhyrule · October 16

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SCP343 wrote: »

I'm not taking that two-hour test. At this point, class identity is nonexistent. While you can roleplay during quests, in PvE and PvP. I'd like to see one of you stream using only one class skills. I'm curious if you can find any identity and enjoyment there by dying 20 times per battlegrounds.

Watching Zos try to pvp in their own game (not vengeance) would be very entertaining.

They had a whole stream of that last year when they dropped the BG changes. The Combat Lead himself was streaming with a big-time Fortnite streamer to hype up PvP.

I’m sure the fact that the VOD was removed very soon after the stream will tell you all you need to know. I wouldn’t use the word “entertaining,” but it was definitely enlightening.

BardokRedSnow · October 16

tomofhyrule wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SCP343 wrote: »

I'm not taking that two-hour test. At this point, class identity is nonexistent. While you can roleplay during quests, in PvE and PvP. I'd like to see one of you stream using only one class skills. I'm curious if you can find any identity and enjoyment there by dying 20 times per battlegrounds.

Watching Zos try to pvp in their own game (not vengeance) would be very entertaining.

They had a whole stream of that last year when they dropped the BG changes. The Combat Lead himself was streaming with a big-time Fortnite streamer to hype up PvP.

I’m sure the fact that the VOD was removed very soon after the stream will tell you all you need to know. I wouldn’t use the word “entertaining,” but it was definitely enlightening.

Ugh this explains a lot about why Zos doesn't understand pvp in their own game.

alpha_synuclein · October 16

Kendaric wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Not when one skill line is so far ahead in power that not using it is a self-inflicted nerf.

Then nerf the overperforming skill line... it's not rocket science.

Will a new meta be created afterwards? Sure, that's the nature of the beast, but at least I won't be forced to look at those horrid neon-green beams anymore.

Apparently it's rocket science to zos, cause we're still seeing green raves everywhere...