Parsing vs. Mechanics

Last'One · October 9

I have a question: why do so many veteran players avoid doing mechanics? For example; kiting in vRG, handling tombs or portals in vSS, taking portals in vSE, doing interrupts or managing reefs in vDSR... you name it. I see this all the time, and I’m sure you do too. Why do veteran players always try to avoid mechanics? Is it just to prevent losing DPS? lol

And what about reviving other players? Same story, right? Because when you’re rezzing, you’re not parsing.

This brings me back to an old argument I’ve had for a long time: if most players intentionally skip mechanics just to protect their parse, how exactly is DPS sharing good for the game? It already fuels toxicity and gatekeeping and now it’s encouraging people to ignore mechanics too.

There’s a lot to debate about features like DPS sharing, Hodor Reflex, and logs, but I think the core issue is simple: why do so many players care more about their numbers than about actually playing the fight properly?

edit:

I’m not talking about skipping mechanics. I’m talking about players who simply don’t want to do them.

vRG: No one wants to kite.
vDSR: No one wants to handle interrupts or reefs.
vSS: No one wants to take T1 or T2.
vSE: No one wants to go into portals to kill the ghosts.
you name it...

I’m not talking about skipping T2&T3 tomb when the DPS is high, that makes sense sometimes.
I’m talking about skipping T1, T2, Reefs, portals in vCR and other necessary mechanics even when they’re required. The same goes for every other trial.

twisttop138 · October 9

Last'One wrote: »

I have a question: why do so many veteran players avoid doing mechanics? For example; kiting in vRG, handling tombs or portals in vSS, taking portals in vSE, doing interrupts or managing reefs in vDSR... you name it. I see this all the time, and I’m sure you do too. Why do veteran players always try to avoid mechanics? Is it just to prevent losing DPS? lol

And what about reviving other players? Same story, right? Because when you’re rezzing, you’re not parsing.

This brings me back to an old argument I’ve had for a long time: if most players intentionally skip mechanics just to protect their parse, how exactly is DPS sharing good for the game? It already fuels toxicity and gatekeeping and now it’s encouraging people to ignore mechanics too.

There’s a lot to debate about features like DPS sharing, Hodor Reflex, and logs, but I think the core issue is simple: why do so many players care more about their numbers than about actually playing the fight properly?

Idk if it's a ingrained thing but some of that lies on the raid lead. In my main group he will call you out mid fight for not stopping to rez. If you shouldn't res for some reason he will let us know, wait until this happens then everyone should be rezzing. Before we go into a trial, in discord everyone's position is laid out. vLC for example, what side for first boss, your mirror number, the order of DPS to grab the null arca. Having structured runs has embedded in us what our jobs are and it really makes you realize stuff when you're in a pug or a disorganized group. People aren't being taught correctly what their job is.

Renato90085 · October 9

Now Dps so high,maybe they don't know or never see how do mech/lazy/can't believe pug healer/want be parse monkey
and it why tank/healer very few

Last'One · October 9

I’m talking about veteran players. they know the mechanics very well.
I’m talking about "you" (Veteran), you know the mechanics well. So why avoid them or try to skip them so often?

Renato90085 · October 9

but what your mean?the vrg kite and vss tomb can skip?
they are time mech,it check your group dps and unlimited loop
like 400k dps maybe have 2 tomb 350k dps have 3 tomb
and rg oxa kite is boss health and time too,if you pull too quick,he will stuck summon mobs and he never move
there only vss portal can use some special way to skip 2and 3 statue(vss hm)but it only some god slayer group will try

GloatingSwine · October 9

The point is to win the fight, right? So if people can skip a mechanic and still win they're going to because usually that gets them to the point of winning the fight faster, and winning the fight was the point.

tomofhyrule · October 9

I think you’re conflating three or four issues here.

Obviously, this is a “DPS share addons bad!” post. But that implies that there is no toxicity or gatekeeping in places where there are no addons (so consoles before they got them this year). Are you implying that there was no gatekeeping or toxicity in any console run ever until they got addons? Because if there was, then it wasn’t the addons adding toxicity.

Secondly, this definitely has an undercurrent of “mechanics will account for lower DPS.” I see that argument a lot, and I’ve heard it a lot as well. And in all of my runs, I have yet to see a single person who says “I may have low DPS, but I can do mechanics!” who doesn’t fail every single mechanic. That entire argument comes off as copium. Normally in my guild’s training runs, we specifically stick the experienced players on mechanic/portal duty since the new/low DPS players can’t concentrate on anything but parsing, and we’ve even gotten in the habit of having the raid lead bring a character with Restoring Light/Kagrenac’s/CP specifically to be a rezbot so rezzes end up happening.

As for the “why favor burning through?” question, the simple answer is that it’s easier. Something that a lot of new players (or even experienced players who only DPS) don’t know is that lower DPS is exponentially harder on the supports. They know you can run nFGI with fake tanks and fake healers, and don’t understand that support roles are extremely necessary in higher-level content, and are incredibly stressful. In a lot of cases, a DPS dying means someone needs to stop and rez them, while a support dying will lead to panic and often to a group wipe. And the longer a fight goes on, the more of a chance there is to make that one tiny mistake.
My biggest example of this was my Gryphon Heart run. It was a very solid (but not even max DPS) group, and we had a single portal before we took Z’Maja down. That meant as tank, I didn’t even need to go downstairs at all, and we had a third tank controlling the minis. It was actually pretty easy for me. I’ve also tanked Cloudrest with a social guild for new players, and we would have like four or five portals (so I would have to go down and do the whole tank swap thing several times) before all of the DPS got overwhelmed and wiped, and that was in a run with no minis. It was unquestionably easier to get GH with a good group than do vCR+0 with a beginner group (and maybe even easier than a normal CR).

A good raid lead will assign people to the mechanics who are good at them, and assign people to parse who need to do that. They’ll tell when to focus adds and when to burn the boss. The whole “lol look at my parse,” at least in my experience, is mostly a tongue-in-cheek thing among groups, because someone does need to do the mechanics or else it won’t clear. And in trifecta runs, nobody should be peeling off to rez because nobody should be dying in the first place.

Now the big time when people care about parses is just getting into the run in the first place… and that’s a huge issue right now (which is listed in about three threads on the first page alone) because the current balance of the game is ridiculous. It isn’t toxicity to ask for only beam builds when the game is so unbalanced that nothing comes close to a build around Herald/Assassination. Especially since beam builds not only give out the most damage, but it also gives reliable self-heals and shields so mistakes are not as punishing with that setup. That is 1000% an issue with the game being atrociously balanced, and no amount of complaining about toxicity is going to change group compositions until Wheeler and co. decide to do some work balancing the Classes.

Finally, I feel like a lot of people who complain about logs have never actually used them properly. Using logs is a very good way to find out what’s going wrong, what your uptimes are, how to do better at your role, and I’ve used those a lot in my progs. I still remember when we did BGF HM with my dungeon group, a lot of that was going through the logs going through recording so we could really try to figure out how to do the entire dungeon. And yes, it is used to see how people in the group are doing. And we have had times where we see, for example, one healer doing less than half of the healing of the other, which is a problem in trials with large heal checks like Bahsei HM.

Now yes, judgement on a players capability just from logs alone is not necessary in normals. But even in some vets, there are things that a lot of people will need to work towards - i’ve been in social guild that can’t get through vDSR first boss non-hard mode. The big problem here of course is the utter lack of a mid-tier trial community in ESO. And again, this is an ESO problem, since the devs have been putting out balance changes and swing combat changes that have gotten pretty well the entire mid-tier community to leave. As such, the only groups we have are the hyper-sweats, and the new players. Of course, the hyper-sweats are not going to want untrained players in their groups, nor are they designed to be training groups. If ESO hadn’t spent the entire year (or more!) trying to push out vet players because of their hard focus on soloists, then we might have a chance of actually having more training groups to get more people involved in endgame.

Soarora · October 9

Endgame trial mentality is to do the content in the easiest way possible. I think it’s partly to reduce prog, partly to make it fast and smooth, but also a lot of DPS don’t like doing mechanics because yeah, they just want high damage number. I don’t understand why people who hate mechanics don’t do competitive parsing instead. Maybe its the thrill of pushing past mechanics, I dunno.

Last'One · October 9

Seems like I wasn’t clear enough about what I meant, so I edited the topic:

I’m talking about skipping T1, T2, reefs, portals in vCR, and other necessary mechanics when they’re required.

Why do veteran players try to avoid them?

Soarora · October 9

Last'One wrote: »

Seems like I wasn’t clear enough about what I meant, so I edited the topic:

I’m talking about skipping T1, T2, reefs, portals in vCR, and other necessary mechanics when they’re required.
Why do veteran players try to avoid them?

If you are put on mechanic duty then you can’t participate in parse PvP because your damage will be lower unless you’re a godly dps walking amongst lower dps players. Not everyone’s anti-mechanic, but dps who want to compete with others to get the highest dps won’t want to do mechanics because of that.

Last'One · October 9

Soarora wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Seems like I wasn’t clear enough about what I meant, so I edited the topic:

I’m talking about skipping T1, T2, reefs, portals in vCR, and other necessary mechanics when they’re required.
Why do veteran players try to avoid them?

If you are put on mechanic duty then you can’t participate in parse PvP because your damage will be lower unless you’re a godly dps walking amongst lower dps players. Not everyone’s anti-mechanic, but dps who want to compete with others to get the highest dps won’t want to do mechanics because of that.

And this is exactly what I’m talking about. Do people really care more about DPS numbers than actually completing the content? Jesus… So… how is DPS sharing, once again, good for the game?

tomofhyrule · October 9

Last'One wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Seems like I wasn’t clear enough about what I meant, so I edited the topic:

I’m talking about skipping T1, T2, reefs, portals in vCR, and other necessary mechanics when they’re required.
Why do veteran players try to avoid them?

If you are put on mechanic duty then you can’t participate in parse PvP because your damage will be lower unless you’re a godly dps walking amongst lower dps players. Not everyone’s anti-mechanic, but dps who want to compete with others to get the highest dps won’t want to do mechanics because of that.

And this is exactly what I’m talking about. Do people really care more about DPS numbers than actually completing the content? Jesus… So… how is DPS sharing, once again, good for the game?

As I said:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

That implies that there is no toxicity or gatekeeping in places where there are no addons (so consoles before they got them this year). Are you implying that there was no gatekeeping or toxicity in any console run ever until they got addons? Because if there was, then it wasn’t the addons adding toxicity.

…

As for the “why favor burning through?” question, the simple answer is that it’s easier. Something that a lot of new players (or even experienced players who only DPS) don’t know is that lower DPS is exponentially harder on the supports. They know you can run nFGI with fake tanks and fake healers, and don’t understand that support roles are extremely necessary in higher-level content, and are incredibly stressful. In a lot of cases, a DPS dying means someone needs to stop and rez them, while a support dying will lead to panic and often to a group wipe. And the longer a fight goes on, the more of a chance there is to make that one tiny mistake.

…

Finally, I feel like a lot of people who complain about logs have never actually used them properly. Using logs is a very good way to find out what’s going wrong, what your uptimes are, how to do better at your role, and I’ve used those a lot in my progs. I still remember when we did BGF HM with my dungeon group, a lot of that was going through the logs going through recording so we could really try to figure out how to do the entire dungeon. And yes, it is used to see how people in the group are doing. And we have had times where we see, for example, one healer doing less than half of the healing of the other, which is a problem in trials with large heal checks like Bahsei HM.

Now yes, judgement on a players capability just from logs alone is not necessary in normals. But even in some vets, there are things that a lot of people will need to work towards - i’ve been in social guild that can’t get through vDSR first boss non-hard mode. The big problem here of course is the utter lack of a mid-tier trial community in ESO. And again, this is an ESO problem, since the devs have been putting out balance changes and swing combat changes that have gotten pretty well the entire mid-tier community to leave. As such, the only groups we have are the hyper-sweats, and the new players. Of course, the hyper-sweats are not going to want untrained players in their groups, nor are they designed to be training groups. If ESO hadn’t spent the entire year (or more!) trying to push out vet players because of their hard focus on soloists, then we might have a chance of actually having more training groups to get more people involved in endgame.

GloatingSwine · October 9

tomofhyrule wrote: »

As for the “why favor burning through?” question, the simple answer is that it’s easier. Something that a lot of new players (or even experienced players who only DPS) don’t know is that lower DPS is exponentially harder on the supports. They know you can run nFGI with fake tanks and fake healers, and don’t understand that support roles are extremely necessary in higher-level content, and are incredibly stressful. In a lot of cases, a DPS dying means someone needs to stop and rez them, while a support dying will lead to panic and often to a group wipe. And the longer a fight goes on, the more of a chance there is to make that one tiny mistake.

It doesn't help that there's a pretty hard wall for tanks especially that kicks in shortly after vet base games, where it goes from everything being pretty easy even on vet to "dead if you stand in the wrong place for two seconds in a row" with basically no ramp up.

Soarora · October 9

Last'One wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Seems like I wasn’t clear enough about what I meant, so I edited the topic:

I’m talking about skipping T1, T2, reefs, portals in vCR, and other necessary mechanics when they’re required.
Why do veteran players try to avoid them?

If you are put on mechanic duty then you can’t participate in parse PvP because your damage will be lower unless you’re a godly dps walking amongst lower dps players. Not everyone’s anti-mechanic, but dps who want to compete with others to get the highest dps won’t want to do mechanics because of that.

And this is exactly what I’m talking about. Do people really care more about DPS numbers than actually completing the content? Jesus… So… how is DPS sharing, once again, good for the game?

Unless someone’s a mid-tier player who doesn’t have the damage to support skipping mechanics, they’re completing the content. Just not in the way you and I might deem fun… but it’s fun for them and we can’t dictate what the right way to have fun is. If the ability to see damage numbers in real time went away then yes the competitive aspect would be toned down a bit… and a lot of people would quit.

Renato90085 · October 9

oh,i see now,but for me ,it have many reason
first.sure,dps race is a problem(and i hate too),and do mech mean lost dps
but pressure is a reason,no one want he did a mistack so group wipe
and i know someone is some hardmode member,they are in they group is mech or sup gear jail dds ,so in other run(pug?) they maybe have all hm clean/gear not care can finish or what ,just want be parse monkey
other reason is boring, mech mean is regularity ,if i join a pug or discord vcr+3 run,should i every time say:hey i have 4th GH and give me solo p1 and a good tank can give all crystal sus ty,there 100% is 8 crystal/2time aoe/75sec/3 orb and one boss,it you the hundredth time stand here
and log not bad, just too many player only use this see they dps,i (my group)use this found/chck my mistack/buff time(or bug),and teach new player group where they can better

Last'One · October 9

Soarora wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Seems like I wasn’t clear enough about what I meant, so I edited the topic:

I’m talking about skipping T1, T2, reefs, portals in vCR, and other necessary mechanics when they’re required.
Why do veteran players try to avoid them?

If you are put on mechanic duty then you can’t participate in parse PvP because your damage will be lower unless you’re a godly dps walking amongst lower dps players. Not everyone’s anti-mechanic, but dps who want to compete with others to get the highest dps won’t want to do mechanics because of that.

And this is exactly what I’m talking about. Do people really care more about DPS numbers than actually completing the content? Jesus… So… how is DPS sharing, once again, good for the game?

Unless someone’s a mid-tier player who doesn’t have the damage to support skipping mechanics, they’re completing the content. Just not in the way you and I might deem fun… but it’s fun for them and we can’t dictate what the right way to have fun is. If the ability to see damage numbers in real time went away then yes the competitive aspect would be toned down a bit… and a lot of people would quit.

Maybe people are already quitting. How many times have you seen, for example, in vSE, someone who you’re pretty sure can go into a portal, but doesn’t enter because no one else does, and then they leave the trial?

How many times have you seen a leader disband in vDSR because no one goes into the reefs, even though you know there’s at least one or two players who could do them? And yet, no one says anything.

This happens all the time, every day. You enter a trial, play for a while, and then the leader disbands or veteran players leave the trial, simply because no one wants to do the mechanics. Doesn’t that make people want to quit the game?

Maybe veteran players leave because all they care about are numbers. Maybe new players leave because their group can’t complete the trial. And for new players, I bet this happens even more often.
Yes, I bet you’re right. All of this makes people leave the game. And why? Once again… all because we trade fun for numbers!

colossalvoids · October 9

Last'One wrote: »

I’m talking about veteran players. they know the mechanics very well.
I’m talking about "you" (Veteran), you know the mechanics well. So why avoid them or try to skip them so often?

Where are those players being observed? On their YouTube score record videos, being on a raid with you and your veteran group, pugging around, thinking everyone who's past 2k CP or having some skin on are veterans? Because that's different skips, aims and different mentalities. One's can do so effectively and pushing through without much issues while others are doing those mechanics, obviously, or it won't be a clear. If they aren't that's probably a hint of not being really much of a dedicated player, might be a different kind of veteran measuring it by time and not content done, who knows. Or an ex endgame player who can't care less nowadays for what's going on, just autopiloting.

Soarora · October 9

Last'One wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Seems like I wasn’t clear enough about what I meant, so I edited the topic:

I’m talking about skipping T1, T2, reefs, portals in vCR, and other necessary mechanics when they’re required.
Why do veteran players try to avoid them?

If you are put on mechanic duty then you can’t participate in parse PvP because your damage will be lower unless you’re a godly dps walking amongst lower dps players. Not everyone’s anti-mechanic, but dps who want to compete with others to get the highest dps won’t want to do mechanics because of that.

And this is exactly what I’m talking about. Do people really care more about DPS numbers than actually completing the content? Jesus… So… how is DPS sharing, once again, good for the game?

Unless someone’s a mid-tier player who doesn’t have the damage to support skipping mechanics, they’re completing the content. Just not in the way you and I might deem fun… but it’s fun for them and we can’t dictate what the right way to have fun is. If the ability to see damage numbers in real time went away then yes the competitive aspect would be toned down a bit… and a lot of people would quit.

Maybe people are already quitting. How many times have you seen, for example, in vSE, someone who you’re pretty sure can go into a portal, but doesn’t enter because no one else does, and then they leave the trial?

How many times have you seen a leader disband in vDSR because no one goes into the reefs, even though you know there’s at least one or two players who could do them? And yet, no one says anything.

This happens all the time, every day. You enter a trial, play for a while, and then the leader disbands or veteran players leave the trial, simply because no one wants to do the mechanics. Doesn’t that make people want to quit the game?

Maybe veteran players leave because all they care about are numbers. Maybe new players leave because their group can’t complete the trial. And for new players, I bet this happens even more often.
Yes, I bet you’re right. All of this makes people leave the game. And why? Once again… all because we trade fun for numbers!

0 times.

0 times.

Never seen that happen. If no one volunteers, people get voluntold. In a lower skill group, people don’t volunteer because no one knows the mechanics and are scared to speak up. In higher skilled groups, people are either forced into mechanics when the roster is created or there’s people (like me when I did trials) who would x up for mechanics and it worked out. Where are you finding these groups? Is it pugging? Pugs in my experience struggle with more than just stack and burn because people either don’t know what they’re doing (even if you think they do… they might not) or can’t work with the group very well without voice chat commands (used to other strategies, not wanting to work with fellow pugs, etc.).

Renato90085 · October 9

colossalvoids wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

I’m talking about veteran players. they know the mechanics very well.
I’m talking about "you" (Veteran), you know the mechanics well. So why avoid them or try to skip them so often?

Where are those players being observed? On their YouTube score record videos, being on a raid with you and your veteran group, pugging around, thinking everyone who's past 2k CP or having some skin on are veterans? Because that's different skips, aims and different mentalities. One's can do so effectively and pushing through without much issues while others are doing those mechanics, obviously, or it won't be a clear. If they aren't that's probably a hint of not being really much of a dedicated player, might be a different kind of veteran measuring it by time and not content done, who knows. Or an ex endgame player who can't care less nowadays for what's going on, just autopiloting.

some discord can see they pat(clean) ,since U35 and U46 ,the Pveendgame circle very small but I think this can't prove they know mech
like... I am unstoppable healer,but I really don't know mirror mech in 2 month ago
because I first run VLC and got unstop ,I all is healer never touch mirror
all I know mirror mech is from pug tank and guild run learn

twisttop138 · October 9

Last'One wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Seems like I wasn’t clear enough about what I meant, so I edited the topic:

I’m talking about skipping T1, T2, reefs, portals in vCR, and other necessary mechanics when they’re required.
Why do veteran players try to avoid them?

If you are put on mechanic duty then you can’t participate in parse PvP because your damage will be lower unless you’re a godly dps walking amongst lower dps players. Not everyone’s anti-mechanic, but dps who want to compete with others to get the highest dps won’t want to do mechanics because of that.

And this is exactly what I’m talking about. Do people really care more about DPS numbers than actually completing the content? Jesus… So… how is DPS sharing, once again, good for the game?

Unless someone’s a mid-tier player who doesn’t have the damage to support skipping mechanics, they’re completing the content. Just not in the way you and I might deem fun… but it’s fun for them and we can’t dictate what the right way to have fun is. If the ability to see damage numbers in real time went away then yes the competitive aspect would be toned down a bit… and a lot of people would quit.

Maybe people are already quitting. How many times have you seen, for example, in vSE, someone who you’re pretty sure can go into a portal, but doesn’t enter because no one else does, and then they leave the trial?

How many times have you seen a leader disband in vDSR because no one goes into the reefs, even though you know there’s at least one or two players who could do them? And yet, no one says anything.

This happens all the time, every day. You enter a trial, play for a while, and then the leader disbands or veteran players leave the trial, simply because no one wants to do the mechanics. Doesn’t that make people want to quit the game?

Maybe veteran players leave because all they care about are numbers. Maybe new players leave because their group can’t complete the trial. And for new players, I bet this happens even more often.
Yes, I bet you’re right. All of this makes people leave the game. And why? Once again… all because we trade fun for numbers!

This sounds terrible. This can't be an organized group you're talking about, right? It's gotta be pugs. I promise I've never once experienced any of the things you're talking about. We either know beforehand in discord who's doing portals, reef hearts, ice cages, mirror numbers etc. Or in my social guild where I'm learning to tank and we're teaching players vet mechanics, we ask for people to volunteer before hand and before mechs are explained. If no one is going into the portal in vSE and a wipe happens, why is the lead not instructing people? This is why I don't pug. It also alleviates your issue about DPS add-ons. I gave a parse in the beginning to my guilds to show a certain level of base competency. After that it was learning. No add on required. But as @tomofhyrule pointed out, add on or not, people that are gonna "gatekeep" you are gonna do it with or without it. I'm on PS5. We just got add-ons. This stuff was going on long before that. Find a guild or a discord. Stop pugging.

Last'One · October 9

Of course I’m talking about PUGs (Group Finder)… I don’t use or care about Discord! I care about the game, so I play the game inside the game, not outside.
And Group Finder isn’t just for “noob” players. There are a lot of very good players who join PUGs through Group Finder, and it’s about those players that I’m talking about, this is what this topic is about.

tomofhyrule · October 9

Last'One wrote: »

Of course I’m talking about PUGs (Group Finder)… I don’t use or care about Discord! I care about the game, so I play the game inside the game, not outside.
And Group Finder isn’t just for “noob” players. There are a lot of very good players who join PUGs through Group Finder, and it’s about those players that I’m talking about, this is what this topic is about.

And there’s your problem right there.

Of course in a free-for-all circumstance, there’s going to be people who don’t care about you. That’s not even a surprise. If you want a pleasant experience, then you want to run with people who are organized.

It’s the same as the “why are there so many speedrunners in the dungeon finder?” argument we get every other week. If you group with randoms, you get randoms. And random people have a tendency to be selfish because they see you only as another NPC they don’t have to care about.

You know, people have been asking for a trial finder for years, and every time there was someone saying “that will lead to fake roles and uncooperative people.” And here we see it happening.

Long story short: don’t run randoms and expect to not get gatekeepy [snip]s.

JaxontheUnfortunate · October 9

Basically if you are running randoms bring a solo build since most of the time the supports will be fakes even in vet.

Renato90085 · October 9

But how you know they are good player..?
I always do pug vet trial tank but I never notice this
and why it about dps race,if they are in bad group,they still can do mech and still top1-2 dps,if group all member is good player,I never seen any quiet group
and in pug do dps race is very strange thing
the buff Time and pen is suck ,highest dps still very low

Skorro · October 9

Don't go into group finder with expectations unless you're willing to set them, explain mechs, etc

If you're in guild trial groups, stuff like tombs, etc will be assigned (unless you're in a savage score-pushing group that can burn when they need).

Most vet trial pugs I've been in "veterans" are just mainly casuals who just parse because they don't *know* the mechanics and played mostly solo or normal so don't know to rez. Remember we're in an era where most players are hitting high damage (and you can hit really high CP by overland and dailies).

Real veterans I've had the pleasure to run with will do mechs, rez you, and STILL parse the pants off you lol.

On my experience though, majority of them rarely use group finder though unless it's to fill spots in farming runs.

Tldr: veterans aren't always veteran

twisttop138 · October 9

Last'One wrote: »

Of course I’m talking about PUGs (Group Finder)… I don’t use or care about Discord! I care about the game, so I play the game inside the game, not outside.
And Group Finder isn’t just for “noob” players. There are a lot of very good players who join PUGs through Group Finder, and it’s about those players that I’m talking about, this is what this topic is about.

That's a uh, principled stand you're making there. Many trials guilds don't require discord. In my social guild we will sign you up on the roster if you don't use discord. As long as you show. But it just makes it easier. There you see the set up. Who's doing what mechanics (the thing you're complaining about) and what the lead wants us in or what ults he may want for trash vs boss etc. If you continue to pug, you're just driving yourself crazy for no reason. The organized groups you want to play with are out there. With pugs you have no idea what you're going to get. This is where your issue lies. What you do with that info is up to you, but if you're really sick of this behavior, I would strongly encourage you to find a trials guild at the very least. The difference will astound you.

Last'One · October 9

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Of course I’m talking about PUGs (Group Finder)… I don’t use or care about Discord! I care about the game, so I play the game inside the game, not outside.
And Group Finder isn’t just for “noob” players. There are a lot of very good players who join PUGs through Group Finder, and it’s about those players that I’m talking about, this is what this topic is about.

And there’s your problem right there.

Of course in a free-for-all circumstance, there’s going to be people who don’t care about you. That’s not even a surprise. If you want a pleasant experience, then you want to run with people who are organized.

It’s the same as the “why are there so many speedrunners in the dungeon finder?” argument we get every other week. If you group with randoms, you get randoms. And random people have a tendency to be selfish because they see you only as another NPC they don’t have to care about.

You know, people have been asking for a trial finder for years, and every time there was someone saying “that will lead to fake roles and uncooperative people.” And here we see it happening.

Long story short: don’t run randoms and expect to not get gatekeepy [snip]s.

How did we go from:

"Why do veteran players (the ones who know almost all the mechanics) so often try to skip required mechanics and expect other players to handle them — even when it’s obvious new players can’t?"

to something like:
“Of course pugs will gatekeep you!”?

Last'One · October 9

@Orbital78 I’m talking about what skip? oO

I honestly don’t understand if some people on this forum just don’t read the topic, [snip]
[edited for baiting]

ShutUpitsRed · October 9

[snip]

It's arrogant selfishness. Same reason I'm always having to rez as a healer in PvE. The PvP equivalent is nobody picking up the Chaosball in battlegrounds - people don't wanna do anything but their rotations that get them the big shiny numbers. The arrogance is them thinking they're "above" doing mechanics, whether via DPS or kill count, even when it ultimately doesn't matter. Heck, I've been in pugs where a dps ignores mechanics then blames everyone else for dying because dps wasn't high enough. Lol.
[edited for inappropriate content]

Estin · October 9

Vet PUGs are carries like 60% of the time. Even if it says KWTD, the majority of players, mostly DDs, don't KWTD. I'm guessing they're scared to mess up a solo mechanic like Reefs or Portals, so they don't speak up when it's time to assign mechs. That or they plain don't care and expect others to do it while they hold left click with a lightning staff parsing on the boss. The current skill level in vet PUGs is very low and is still dropping. I've been doing pug vet trials for about a year or so now, and the only trials I've yet to complete is CR and MoL. CR almost always fails on the first mini because nobody does portal 2, and MoL always fails because of the color mechanic due to players running around. The amount of times some stray player of the opposite colors runs into the stacked group of 6 on the other side is completely baffling. Like, what were they even thinking? Or on SS final boss when portals are assigned. You have 2 people assign themselves to portals and then nobody speaks up for the third one, so you awkwardly stand around waiting for a third person, even if you say in chat that it's an automatic wipe if nobody goes. They'll just hold block and then start bashing waiting for the tank to pull.

Unless it's something that can be skipped, I'm always the first to do mechanics. Most are super easy, while the rest are fun enough. For something like SS Lokk, I always go for T3 because I almost always have the highest damage, and 90% of the time Lokk flies off before T3 even spawns.

Jaimeh · October 9

I assume that OP is talking about PUGs because in organized groups every player has their assigned activities and they do them because they are part of a team that has the same goal in mind. But with PUGs there's no team feeling or a shared goal; players might be there to farm gear or motifs, to get the clear or a cosmetic, to do an endeavour, for the weekly coffer...

Also, in PUGs you never know if players are familiar with the trial or the mechanics, and some of the mechanics that DDs have to do require more skill: like higher damage, or being able to self-sustain and mitigate, while doing complicated actions, so of course players who are not familiar with the mechanics or who are not too skilled in executing them will opt to parse because it's more straightforward. That's why when I form a group through the finder, I make sure to assign the mechanics DDs from the start, especially for trials which have portals at the last boss, because there's nothing more frustrating than spending time to go through a trial with a PUG and then realizing at the end that nobody can do the portals, for instance.

That's not the worst thing though, I think the worst thing is that oftentimes players don't want to learn, even if we offer to go through what they need to do for the mechanic, and to me this is a bigger problem in the game. Some players are even iffy if they are offered mechanics knowledge and that baffles me, because this is immediate information that they can apply in a live scenario, and that they would only get if they read a guide or watched a video, and yet people sometimes are very resistant to that. And this ties in with another problem in the game, which is basically players farming trials to put a meta build together, but having no interest to learn more beyond that. If you don't do end-game, you don't really need a meta build for organized group play, because in it will under-perform outside of a group, and also if the DDs don't know how to use it right (if there are proc conditions, or uptimes that should be maintained). Anyway, tl;dr, I think it's players who are not interested in learning end-game content, they are doing the trial for reasons other than enjoying the combat related to that type of content.