Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Ok, and how do you propose to fix this? To force all groups to bring everyone regardless of their build? How do you propose to enforce this?

I'm simply pointing out the problem. The "fix" would be to alter mindsets, but that's never going to happen en-masse; and certainly not enforcing anything - enforcement being the problem.

Ok, we all know toxicity is a problem. Better balance is a way to address it, making everyone see more players with off-meta builds able to do the content.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Yes, there are a lot of players who play off-meta setups reasonably well. The fact still remains that the average and maximum potential of an off-meta build are still significantly lower than the average and maximum potential of an Arcbladeplar. And that’s just numbers.

And still not accounting for the player's ability to reach that maximum.

Note the word "average" there.

Obviously, we can have a poor player with a beam build, and then they'll get toxicity thrown at them when it's obvious that they can't measure up.

But if we're assuming that the average person who knows enough to run the meta beam build probably has the wherewithal to get number X, and the average player who runs a different build is doing so because they have a "I don't care about how much damage I do" mentality, which is most likely to get the numbers the group wants? The group's not going to take time to hold auditions when their goal is a speedrun or two for gear.

Even before Subclassing, people who were running a non-meta Class didn't just get into groups; it was usually a case of "hey, I know this person is on a NB main, but I run with them in another group and they do things with the NB I haven't seen before"

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

To be honest, a lot of these “gatekeepy” players have been burned by people with off-meta builds before - I’ve seen plenty of people who proudly proclaim that “it’s okay that they have low DPS as long as they know mechanics!” while proceeding to botch every mechanic. Not to mention that there are a number of people who are convinced that their solo-everything build is perfect because they need their self heals and armor, conveniently forgetting that the point of group content is to have healers and tanks taking care of that for you so you can focus on damage.

How would you feel if someone came up to you and said “Hi, I’ve never met you but I don’t trust that you can do your job to heal me so I’m slotting self heals to keep myslef alive. Also I’m offended that people don’t trust me to do my job and are implying my damage is low.”

Not for nothing but there is a lot of group content where DDs should be speccing a self-heal. A dead DD does 0 dps.

And a DPS who slots self heals does less damage than a DPS who doesn't because they sacrificed damage for healing.

In organized groups, DPS stick to pure damage - that's why the meta is 3x pure DPS lines. Why? Well, they have healers specifically for that. Yes, there are times when a DPS needs to run off and do something else like portals so they need a heal, but normally you focus on your job and let the healers do theirs.

Most groups think it's really rude to show up without trusting the healers. That's literally their job to stop you from dying. Unless, of course, you stand out of position and take a lot of damage, at which point it is your fault. A lot of high-level players are burned since the "well I have a self-heal" mindset does mean that they can be a little cheekier and not as cognizant of positioning.

(and note that the meta build does have a spammable which is also a self-heal, which means they can afford to take risks that other builds can't)

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Numbers also say that for the highest echelons of content (hard mode trials after Kyne’s), there honestly isn’t much wiggle room either - they’re balanced around groups which are able to put out obscene amounts of damage. And there, that “7 seconds of difference” is also the difference between a group wipe from Taleria’s mages being up too long and a clear.

The game has DPS checks, but those checks are not set at 100% of possible damage. There are also places where too much damage can lead to a wipe. That same content requires tanks and healers to be on point with their positioning - that's a player skill, not the power of their build.

Again, the faster damage is done, the less everyone needs to deal with mechanics. That's why people talk about "soft" and "hard" DPS checks - a soft check is not going to wipe the group, but it leads to a mechanic or too many adds that make the fight much harder to deal with. And yes, there are a lot of strategies that are "hey, we need to burn this before mechanic X happens"

As for the other point, this is where "mechanics" comes into the equation. If the mechanic is "too much damage leads to problems," the answer will be to come off the boss at a specific point and focus adds.
(I'll also point out that the highest groups have damage high enough that they don't need to pull off the boss either - there is no fight where too much damage is a wipe, it just means you get a lot of adds all at once. A phenomenal tank can bring them all in to get burned without taking damage off)

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You’re never going to get rid of toxicity. Ever. But if there wasn’t such a huge gap between the top build and the next one, then people would be more used to seeing other ways than what the 0.0001% of players do. If the balance were better, people would be less gatekeepy.

I'm not denying the balance couldn't be better, I'm saying it's not strictly needed. Again, the game is not balanced around the 100% damage potential having 100% efficiency.

The poor balance has driven off all of the players who would allow different builds in. The poor balance is making it so a singular meta is king. If the balance doesn't improve, this entire problem will continue to get worse as more and more reasonable people who dislike the meta leave in frustration.

The highest level of content is definitely balanced around the skills used by most of the highest level raiders - this means they are looking for the massive directional cleave that only Fatecarver can bring. The reason people bring up vKA so much is that there's a lot of blocking mechanics in that trial, which means you can't be channelling a skill for it... and yet Fatecarver builds can still use Pragmatic's shield to power through it.

A trial which is specifically denying Fatecarver would be interesting, like if there were something where you needed to stack two bosses to make them damageable, but if boss B dies it leads to a group wipe. That would be a fun "anti-meta" mechanic.

----

Look, I hate the meta, and Subclassing has really pushed me out of the game. But I'm a realist, so when I go to my prog I bite the bullet and I slot stupid other lines that make my carefully built character (who I spent years with and wrote a whole backstory on why he has those powers) drop a lot of the stuff that I like so I can throw on lorebreaking nonsense that is 0% fun to play. Most of the dislike in the "How do you like Subclassing" thread comes from the high-level players who detest being forced into one single meta.

At least dungeons I can stay pureclass, and the people I run with don't care since I can still get trifectas playing the way I want with friends who know what I'm capable of. But that's the other thing - I don't PUG. Ever. Even in this event, I would rather solo FGI for my tickets than go into a PUG because I don't want to deal with toxicity from others.

The obscene balance issue has empowered thinks-they're-better-than-they-are players to think that there is only one way to do things. Until another meta rises (or at least an equivalently strong build, or better yet a smackdown of the OP build to be like the rest), these people will only think one way is possible and the others are all RP builds.

Complaining that people are toxic will fix nothing, and keeping everything as is will only drive more reasonable people away. Improving balance will prove that more ways to play are viable, and then more people clearing on the builds they want to play with will lead to them opening up more groups which allow people to bring off-meta builds.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Better balance is a way to address it, making everyone see more players with off-meta builds able to do the content.

This would be most welcome. And it doesn't need to take away from the meta. Just bring off-meta up a bit, make more off-meta sets at least somewhat viable. Doesn't need to compete with the top fraction of percentile, but enough that interesting and creative builds can comfortably clear DLC dungeon HMs, but maybe not trifectas. To clear latest vet trials but maybe not HMs.

The amount of sets and build possibilities is sadly wasted in meta-chasing and that unfortunately bleeds into mid-tier content. And that is the gatekeeping issue. Sure, hardest content requires preparation and should remain as such. But when the same demand is put on to mid-tier content, optimisation becomes gatekeeping.

I think Skinny Cheeks had some re-balancing ideas for all the sets in the game. Zos could hire some maths-guy to revamp a lot of the "forgotten" sets. Some "Overhaul the Ancient" -project or something.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

when I go to my prog

This would be the perfect place to go all in on meta and optimisation. When you prog, minmax the everliving Oblivion out of that build.

While I do not like subclassing and the predictable outcome it caused, I don't think one poor sport in one raid represents the majority of endgame PVE players

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Toxicity and gatekeeping have been around longer than subclassing, longer than the Arcanist class, longer than "HA builds" became a "thing," and... wait for it... longer than ESO has been around! ZOS didn't create them, and doesn't encourage them. In fact, "toxicity" is one of the things you can report another player for-- although there isn't really a subcategory under it that seems appropriate for comments which insult or belittle other players.

Right, toxicity existed before ESO but you’re missing the point entirely. The game doesn’t just let toxicity happen, it creates the conditions for it. Weak sets, poor scaling, and meta funnels punish anyone trying to play differently. That’s what drives exclusion and gatekeeping, not just bad players. Ignoring the design problem doesn’t make it disappear.

I’ve played since closed BETA as well and here it is you that is missing the point, META stands for “most effective tactic available”. Most groups (especially if it’s vet) don’t want to turn a quick pledge run into a prog banging their head against a boss for an hour so they insist on a META whether that is tactics, builds etc to ensure a quick and mostly painless clear. You didn’t show any combat logs showing that you were carrying your weight and he did mention “carrying you” in chat before he left so I have a feeling you weren’t doing huge damage numbers so all we have is a “he said she said” scenario with the bizarre “gatekeeping” bogeyman invoked with nothing to back it up. For all we know he was running logs and decided the group’s damage and overall performance wasn’t up to par and left.

The game didn’t create the scenario that you describe as “toxic”. Players simply have expectations of performance for a good run when it’s veteran content and in the end it’s better if the player who doesn’t want to experience that leaves and allows you to get a fill rather than making snide comments in chat the entire time if he’s truly “toxic” - and I have met a couple of players over the past decade who actually fit that description but that type of player is exceedingly rare. You mentioned “play how you want” as a justification, but when it comes to group content “play how you want” doesn’t apply because group content is not about you, it’s about the group. Group content is “play what is effective” not “play how you want” out of respect for other group members’ time.That may also involve you doing a little “dummy humping” in order to increase damage if that was really the issue.

I run HA builds once in a while so I get it; they’re fun and while I’ve never been kicked from a trial/dungeon or disparaged in chat for running one because I’m doing solid damage they aren’t ideal for all content - especially after the nerfs over the past couple of years and they have a lower performance ceiling than a normal build. Why don’t you try running a meta build and see how you feel about it to have more flexibility?

See, that’s exactly the disconnect. You say META just means ‘most effective tactic available,’ but when design makes one playstyle massively more effective than the rest, that ‘most effective’ turns into the only accepted one, even in content that doesn’t require it. That’s not just players being picky, that’s design making everything else feel like dead weight.

And no, this isn’t about me personally or my logs. I’m doing ~90k DPS, I don’t die, I’ve got CP set up to rez faster, and I’m often the last man standing keeping runs alive. That should be valuable in a vet pledge. The problem is, when sets and scaling push one style so far above the rest, people ignore everything else a build brings and only judge by a narrow parse number.

*Play how you want* falls apart the second the game’s own design tells players that only one style is viable. That’s what creates the culture where people leave or mock in the first place. And that’s not on players alone, that’s on ZOS for forcing everyone into a single box.

I want to start with this point: someone once said, “You don’t get Swashbuckler Supreme just by holding down your left mouse button.” Well… are you sure about that?

• Dreadsail Reef was released in 2022 with Update 34. If I remember correctly, the average parses back then were around 120k DPS, maybe a bit higher, maybe a bit lower, but somewhere in that range. Since then, with each new ESO update, builds have gotten stronger. New sets and items were introduced, players can now reach much higher numbers… but ZoS hasn’t actually changed Dreadsail Reef itself. Did they make it harder? No. So…
  
  Today it’s easy to parse 110k +/- with any onebar build. DPS is not the issue when it comes to getting Swashbuckler Supreme.
• The real problem isn’t the builds, it’s the players.

Anyway, @Asdara, the truth is you’ll never get the result you’re hoping for here. Never. And there are many reasons for that. This has been debated for a very long time, and nothing changes: players don’t change, and ZoS isn’t going to change their stance on toxicity or gatekeeping.

If you really love your build, the best path forward is to play with people who care about fun, teamwork, and mechanics, not just DPS numbers. Right now, it’s absolutely possible to complete almost any trial hard mode with a Onebar build. All you need is a fair group who understands mechanics and doesn’t care whether you parse 70k less or 200k more. What matters is the group, not the meter.

In fact, I already sent you a PM in-game inviting you to join me and my guild. We Onebar players can clear any HM in this game. Any! Trifectas? Not all of them yet, but we’re getting there, with future updates, we’ll push even further. For now, we can already do almost every HM and quite a few trifectas. We have the DPS, we have the knowledge… what we’re missing is a united community.

So @Asdara, if you really want to play with Onebar build, you can still earn plenty of achievements and have a lot of fun. All you need is a group of players like you, me, and many others.

To everyone else reading this: if you agree with what I’m saying, you’re welcome to join my guild. Just let me know your in-game @ID by whispering me here on the forum, or whisper me in-game @Zaan’s

For a long time, I fought for HA/OneBar players in the wrong way. I argued here on the forums, hoping people would give us a chance, and I wished ZoS would notice us and lend some support.
And in a way, ZoS did help, they gave us stronger DPS through new items and sets. But players? They haven’t changed, and they never will.
That’s why the only true way forward is clear: we must create our own groups, free from the gatekeeping and the toxicity. If we really want to fight back, if we want to prove what HA/One-Bar players can achieve, then we must do it together.

The strength of our builds doesn’t come from numbers on a parse, it comes from teamwork, knowledge, and unity. So if you’re ready to fight this battle, stand with us. Together, we can clear any content. Together, we can build the community we deserve.

Last'One wrote: »

I want to start with this point: someone once said, “You don’t get Swashbuckler Supreme just by holding down your left mouse button.” Well… are you sure about that?

• Dreadsail Reef was released in 2022 with Update 34. If I remember correctly, the average parses back then were around 120k DPS, maybe a bit higher, maybe a bit lower, but somewhere in that range. Since then, with each new ESO update, builds have gotten stronger. New sets and items were introduced, players can now reach much higher numbers… but ZoS hasn’t actually changed Dreadsail Reef itself. Did they make it harder? No. So…
  
  Today it’s easy to parse 110k +/- with any onebar build. DPS is not the issue when it comes to getting Swashbuckler Supreme.
• The real problem isn’t the builds, it’s the players.

Anyway, @Asdara, the truth is you’ll never get the result you’re hoping for here. Never. And there are many reasons for that. This has been debated for a very long time, and nothing changes: players don’t change, and ZoS isn’t going to change their stance on toxicity or gatekeeping.

If you really love your build, the best path forward is to play with people who care about fun, teamwork, and mechanics, not just DPS numbers. Right now, it’s absolutely possible to complete almost any trial hard mode with a Onebar build. All you need is a fair group who understands mechanics and doesn’t care whether you parse 70k less or 200k more. What matters is the group, not the meter.

In fact, I already sent you a PM in-game inviting you to join me and my guild. We Onebar players can clear any HM in this game. Any! Trifectas? Not all of them yet, but we’re getting there, with future updates, we’ll push even further. For now, we can already do almost every HM and quite a few trifectas. We have the DPS, we have the knowledge… what we’re missing is a united community.

So @Asdara, if you really want to play with Onebar build, you can still earn plenty of achievements and have a lot of fun. All you need is a group of players like you, me, and many others.

To everyone else reading this: if you agree with what I’m saying, you’re welcome to join my guild. Just let me know your in-game @ID by whispering me here on the forum, or whisper me in-game @Zaan’s

Note for Moderation: This post is not intended as a random guild invite. Its purpose is to inform players who struggle with toxicity and gatekeeping that there is a supportive place available for them. I kindly ask that the topic not be edited, as we have very few alternatives to reach those players.


[*] Tamriel Order- In this guild, we don’t care if you parse 70k less or 200k more than others. In fact, we don’t care about numbers at all. What matters to us is having players who can handle mechanics, like exploding curses outside the group in vRG, swapping mirrors when needed, and so on. We like clean runs and, most importantly, we like to finish the trials we start.

By around CP800, any player should be able to reach about 60–70k DPS baseline, and that’s all we really need to complete almost any trial HM. For trifectas, yes, we need to push DPS because of the time limits. But for hard modes, we can take our time without pressure. As long as you can handle mechanics, you’re more than welcome to stay.


"I have zero tolerance for toxicity regarding other players’ builds or DPS. If you don’t like someone’s setup for any reason, you’re free to leave the group. But if you choose to stay, then support others in every way you can." – @Zaan’s

Guild Activities:

• Veteran Dungeons & Trials: All veteran content is on the table!
• Hard Modes: Let's dive into Hard Modes whenever our group is ready.
• Inclusive Environment: All playstyles and builds are welcome here.
• Need help or advice? Our members are always here to lend a hand!
  If you have any questions, please ask.

Tamriel Order – A Place for Everyone

And of course, we don’t have — and don’t need — Discord! When the time comes, we’ll use it only for voice. No parse requirements, no screenshots of your achievements.

For a long time, I fought for HA/OneBar players in the wrong way. I argued here on the forums, hoping people would give us a chance, and I wished ZoS would notice us and lend some support.
And in a way, ZoS did help, they gave us stronger DPS through new items and sets. But players? They haven’t changed, and they never will.
That’s why the only true way forward is clear: we must create our own groups, free from the gatekeeping and the toxicity. If we really want to fight back, if we want to prove what HA/One-Bar players can achieve, then we must do it together.

The strength of our builds doesn’t come from numbers on a parse, it comes from teamwork, knowledge, and unity. So if you’re ready to fight this battle, stand with us. Together, we can clear any content. Together, we can build the community we deserve.

What server/platform?

Last'One wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

I want to start with this point: someone once said, “You don’t get Swashbuckler Supreme just by holding down your left mouse button.” Well… are you sure about that?

• Dreadsail Reef was released in 2022 with Update 34. If I remember correctly, the average parses back then were around 120k DPS, maybe a bit higher, maybe a bit lower, but somewhere in that range. Since then, with each new ESO update, builds have gotten stronger. New sets and items were introduced, players can now reach much higher numbers… but ZoS hasn’t actually changed Dreadsail Reef itself. Did they make it harder? No. So…
  
  Today it’s easy to parse 110k +/- with any onebar build. DPS is not the issue when it comes to getting Swashbuckler Supreme.
• The real problem isn’t the builds, it’s the players.

Anyway, @Asdara, the truth is you’ll never get the result you’re hoping for here. Never. And there are many reasons for that. This has been debated for a very long time, and nothing changes: players don’t change, and ZoS isn’t going to change their stance on toxicity or gatekeeping.

If you really love your build, the best path forward is to play with people who care about fun, teamwork, and mechanics, not just DPS numbers. Right now, it’s absolutely possible to complete almost any trial hard mode with a Onebar build. All you need is a fair group who understands mechanics and doesn’t care whether you parse 70k less or 200k more. What matters is the group, not the meter.

In fact, I already sent you a PM in-game inviting you to join me and my guild. We Onebar players can clear any HM in this game. Any! Trifectas? Not all of them yet, but we’re getting there, with future updates, we’ll push even further. For now, we can already do almost every HM and quite a few trifectas. We have the DPS, we have the knowledge… what we’re missing is a united community.

So @Asdara, if you really want to play with Onebar build, you can still earn plenty of achievements and have a lot of fun. All you need is a group of players like you, me, and many others.

To everyone else reading this: if you agree with what I’m saying, you’re welcome to join my guild. Just let me know your in-game @ID by whispering me here on the forum, or whisper me in-game @Zaan’s

Note for Moderation: This post is not intended as a random guild invite. Its purpose is to inform players who struggle with toxicity and gatekeeping that there is a supportive place available for them. I kindly ask that the topic not be edited, as we have very few alternatives to reach those players.


[*] Tamriel Order- In this guild, we don’t care if you parse 70k less or 200k more than others. In fact, we don’t care about numbers at all. What matters to us is having players who can handle mechanics, like exploding curses outside the group in vRG, swapping mirrors when needed, and so on. We like clean runs and, most importantly, we like to finish the trials we start.

By around CP800, any player should be able to reach about 60–70k DPS baseline, and that’s all we really need to complete almost any trial HM. For trifectas, yes, we need to push DPS because of the time limits. But for hard modes, we can take our time without pressure. As long as you can handle mechanics, you’re more than welcome to stay.


"I have zero tolerance for toxicity regarding other players’ builds or DPS. If you don’t like someone’s setup for any reason, you’re free to leave the group. But if you choose to stay, then support others in every way you can." – @Zaan’s

Guild Activities:

• Veteran Dungeons & Trials: All veteran content is on the table!
• Hard Modes: Let's dive into Hard Modes whenever our group is ready.
• Inclusive Environment: All playstyles and builds are welcome here.
• Need help or advice? Our members are always here to lend a hand!
  If you have any questions, please ask.

Tamriel Order – A Place for Everyone

And of course, we don’t have — and don’t need — Discord! When the time comes, we’ll use it only for voice. No parse requirements, no screenshots of your achievements.

For a long time, I fought for HA/OneBar players in the wrong way. I argued here on the forums, hoping people would give us a chance, and I wished ZoS would notice us and lend some support.
And in a way, ZoS did help, they gave us stronger DPS through new items and sets. But players? They haven’t changed, and they never will.
That’s why the only true way forward is clear: we must create our own groups, free from the gatekeeping and the toxicity. If we really want to fight back, if we want to prove what HA/One-Bar players can achieve, then we must do it together.

The strength of our builds doesn’t come from numbers on a parse, it comes from teamwork, knowledge, and unity. So if you’re ready to fight this battle, stand with us. Together, we can clear any content. Together, we can build the community we deserve.

What server/platform?

PC-EU, good catch!

Ah rip. But kudos for the guild! Definitely need more communities dedicated to that sort of thing on the high-end.

Last'One wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Ah rip. But kudos for the guild! Definitely need more communities dedicated to that sort of thing on the high-end.

No, it’s not a RIP at all don’t give up! You can do the same on whatever platform you’re playing. The only way it truly becomes RIP is if you stop trying. Talking endlessly about gatekeeping and toxicity won’t help, but focusing on building your own path will. You might get lucky and find a guild that welcomes you into some vet trials, but if you want more than that, you can absolutely create it yourself. This game has space for every type of player and every kind of build, what we need most is unity! Let the elitist players chase their trifectas in 20 minutes; that’s their journey. Yours can be just as meaningful. Don’t settle for scraps start your own guild, bring together players who share your vision, and create the community you want to be part of. Believe me, you can make it happen!

All you need is to create a “golden rule” for yourself and your guild. My golden rule is simple: “I have zero tolerance for toxicity regarding other players’ builds or DPS.” I won’t tolerate even a second of people talking trash about someone’s build or playstyle, I simply won’t take it. I will never let anyone break another player’s motivation. Everyone is welcome to join. One bar, two bars, three bars, I don’t care. As long as our objective is the same: “Enjoy the game at our own pace.” Do something like that, and you’ll build something amazing on your platform.

edit:

Sooner or later, everyone who plays with a onebar build, whatever their reason, will eventually respond to the mechanics the game requires. And once that player feels comfortable with the mechanics and with their onebar build, their own curiosity will naturally push them to want more. That’s the moment many will move on to twobar builds. Some will stay, learn, and become better players without any question. Others might go back, because for whatever reason, they simply can’t adapt to two bars. And that’s perfectly fine. What matters is letting players learn at their own pace, giving them time, and letting them play in a way and in a place where they feel comfortable.

I think the "rip" was meant that the guild is PCEU and he plays on PCNA. But on the other hand, there is nothing stopping him from creating a PCEU character.

I have characters on PCNA and the lag is not too bad. Usually under 200ms. Good enough to play PVE, but in PVP it starts to hurt. I would guess the other way around, if he joins PCEU, he could expect a similar lag.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yea I wouldn't mind joining to help and play with people not obsessed with the meta; thinking it substitutes raw skill and situational awareness. But I don't have the motivation or willpower to form that kind of guild myself. I do try to offer advice and help with players that want to get the most bang for their buck out of heavy attack/off-meta esque builds where I can though. Just wish there were more people into taking on leadership roles that started more of those types of guilds as it is always nice to see.

And there’s the problem.

Forming a group and leading trials is a horribly thankless job, especially when you’re trying to keep morale up through wipes and explain mechanics. The population drain since U35 really hit that group of players who are willing to teach others and bring people into endgame, and we have way fewer than we used to.

It’s easy to say “omg toxic gatekeeper!” when an exhausted raid lead is trying to get done quickly and doesn’t feel like explaining everything repeatedly and having to deal with half the group whispering them about the DPS who’s not pulling their weight. But a lot of those players also are used to the toxic brand of HA players: the ones who categorically refuse to change a single thing about their build or refuse to do mechanics or don’t stand in position. Sometimes it’s easier for them to just put up requirements instead of risking taking a chance on someone they don’t know - I’m not saying that’s not toxic and gatekeepy, but that is the reasoning for it.

As an aside, I definitely have seen two players with the same gear and CP and skills, both running Oakensoul, and one was doing twice the DPS of the other because he knew the timings and when to cast skills and how to optimize the rotation while the other was doing a “hold down left click and just push a skill every so often.” Just wearing Oakensoul doesn’t mean that you can turn your brain off, and unfortunately a lot of endgamers have had bad experiences with Oakenbuilds or the like. Again, I am not defending that mindset, I am just giving an explanation for it.

So yes, toxicity is a problem, and it always has been. But trying to say that the only problem is toxic endgamers gatekeeping is ignoring the equally toxic group of players who will refuse to take any suggestions because they see any tips as toxic, and it also ignores that we used to have a whole group of people who did make endgame inviting, but ZOS’s neglect of balance shoved them all out, leaving only the people who run the sweatiest stuff and have the sweatiest expectations.

Trying to address just one of those issues while pretending the others don’t matter will not fix the whole problem. We need people willing to teach and to be patient with newcomers. We need people willing to learn and willing to accept advice. And we need a game that enjoys having endgamers around and doesn’t try to push them out with poor combat balance and ignoring of PTS feedback.
(And incentives to teach others wouldn’t hurt either)

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yea I wouldn't mind joining to help and play with people not obsessed with the meta; thinking it substitutes raw skill and situational awareness. But I don't have the motivation or willpower to form that kind of guild myself. I do try to offer advice and help with players that want to get the most bang for their buck out of heavy attack/off-meta esque builds where I can though. Just wish there were more people into taking on leadership roles that started more of those types of guilds as it is always nice to see.

And there’s the problem.

Forming a group and leading trials is a horribly thankless job, especially when you’re trying to keep morale up through wipes and explain mechanics. The population drain since U35 really hit that group of players who are willing to teach others and bring people into endgame, and we have way fewer than we used to.

It’s easy to say “omg toxic gatekeeper!” when an exhausted raid lead is trying to get done quickly and doesn’t feel like explaining everything repeatedly and having to deal with half the group whispering them about the DPS who’s not pulling their weight. But a lot of those players also are used to the toxic brand of HA players: the ones who categorically refuse to change a single thing about their build or refuse to do mechanics or don’t stand in position. Sometimes it’s easier for them to just put up requirements instead of risking taking a chance on someone they don’t know - I’m not saying that’s not toxic and gatekeepy, but that is the reasoning for it.

As an aside, I definitely have seen two players with the same gear and CP and skills, both running Oakensoul, and one was doing twice the DPS of the other because he knew the timings and when to cast skills and how to optimize the rotation while the other was doing a “hold down left click and just push a skill every so often.” Just wearing Oakensoul doesn’t mean that you can turn your brain off, and unfortunately a lot of endgamers have had bad experiences with Oakenbuilds or the like. Again, I am not defending that mindset, I am just giving an explanation for it.

So yes, toxicity is a problem, and it always has been. But trying to say that the only problem is toxic endgamers gatekeeping is ignoring the equally toxic group of players who will refuse to take any suggestions because they see any tips as toxic, and it also ignores that we used to have a whole group of people who did make endgame inviting, but ZOS’s neglect of balance shoved them all out, leaving only the people who run the sweatiest stuff and have the sweatiest expectations.

Trying to address just one of those issues while pretending the others don’t matter will not fix the whole problem. We need people willing to teach and to be patient with newcomers. We need people willing to learn and willing to accept advice. And we need a game that enjoys having endgamers around and doesn’t try to push them out with poor combat balance and ignoring of PTS feedback.
(And incentives to teach others wouldn’t hurt either)

Yea this is a big component as well. Playing how you want doesn't mean putting zero effort. If anything, it means putting in -double the effort to make it stand-out and rewarding to play as. At least that's the mindset I bring into groups. I have seen the "bad apples" myself and understand where the prejudice spawns from, as much as I try to change people's initial views on them lol. It's difficult to be fully open-minded when some people misconstrue their playstyle with putting no effort behind it to back it up.

It's not just a zos issue, but I believe they can do a lot more with their balancing to alleviate the issues. There's a big gap between meta and off-meta, and when it comes to pve specifically there's a lot of encounters that are over-tuned for the meta as a symptom. Many things going on that need to be addressed with a fine-tooth comb.

Estin wrote: »

Oakensoul HA builds get a lot of valid stigma because there's a large amount of players, who also often fake queue as a healer, who use the build because they heard it's super strong and easy to play.

Why are they a fake healer, because they don't have a restoration staff? I've had people complain and demand my build, for the most part I ignore them. The last time I stopped to respond, "has anyone died?" they did die, because their healing stopped to type and not keep up with the group. I've been force to heal vet DLC HM without being asked and we cleared. Was it fun, not really.

I've been running spc/sergeant and I'm generally 15-30% of the group dps. In some cases I am 40-60% which is a big reason I run the builds. The skill level in random dungeons is so wide spread that is nice to bring more oomph.

And some people like myself can still run meta builds, but still not get Uber high numbers that everyone else seems to magically get.

Theres meta builds, and then there's the people that are able to play those builds. There is a difference.

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

And some people like myself can still run meta builds, but still not get Uber high numbers that everyone else seems to magically get.

Theres meta builds, and then there's the people that are able to play those builds. There is a difference.

This is where we start to dip into psychology lol. A meta is formed because the toppest-end of the top end refine something and show results. Then everyone else wants to copy paste it because "it works" and in this age of information, it's a rush to copy the elite thinking that is what makes them elite. The toxic folk tend to be the insecure sort. There's alot on the higher end that are pretty chill and only point out issues if it's a visible detriment to the group. But it's always afterwards when bad things start happening in a run.

The behavior described in this thread are the insecure people that blindly follow the meta while knowing practically nothing -of- it. Just parroting and ignoring that the reason it works is because the people using it put in the time and theory-craft and the test-time for it.

Estin wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Oakensoul HA builds get a lot of valid stigma because there's a large amount of players, who also often fake queue as a healer, who use the build because they heard it's super strong and easy to play.

Why are they a fake healer, because they don't have a restoration staff? I've had people complain and demand my build, for the most part I ignore them. The last time I stopped to respond, "has anyone died?" they did die, because their healing stopped to type and not keep up with the group. I've been force to heal vet DLC HM without being asked and we cleared. Was it fun, not really.

I've been running spc/sergeant and I'm generally 15-30% of the group dps. In some cases I am 40-60% which is a big reason I run the builds. The skill level in random dungeons is so wide spread that is nice to bring more oomph.

They're a fake healer because they don't have any healing skills, not even twilight. I was with one last night in vet hm cradle of shadows and they only had ward for themselves and that was it. They were also intent on fighting the hoard of enemies during the maze phase instead of following the torch. I did my best to survive, but the other DD left on the first boss because they weren't healed, and the new DD and Tank were having it rough on the last boss because there weren't any incoming heals. The "Healer" was dead on the floor the majority of the final boss and I left them there since rezzing is more dangerous than fighting without a healer.

This is another example of uh "player and bad apple discrepancy" idk how else to phrase it. I could fake heal that same run and no one would even notice. The fake healer becomes an issue when they stand out like a sore thumb.

And the same thing happens with HA builds which creates all the stigma around them. People that run them selfishly and do things that literally wipe groups, like standing leagues away from group stack and catching kites that wipe the group. Sure, it IS the group's fault for not paying attention to the obvious giant argonian behemoth talking, voiced-queing their intent to charge, and then facing the group with his majestic physique the muscles of which can be seen from Leyawin... and proceeding to -stay- and not simply move or dodge the stolen kite. But that bad kite would not have happened if the bad apple wasn't dpsing from a mile away for no reason, to the detriment of the group.

How to combat the stigmas and prejudices that are formed from player behavior? I don't know, that's definitely a humanity issue, not sure what zos can do about that. In that aspect yes, it is 100% player issue.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

This is another example of uh "player and bad apple discrepancy" idk how else to phrase it. I could fake heal that same run and no one would even notice. The fake healer becomes an issue when they stand out like a sore thumb.

And the same thing happens with HA builds which creates all the stigma around them. People that run them selfishly and do things that literally wipe groups, like standing leagues away from group stack and catching kites that wipe the group. Sure, it IS the group's fault for not paying attention to the obvious giant argonian behemoth talking, voiced-queing their intent to charge, and then facing the group with his majestic physique the muscles of which can be seen from Leyawin... and proceeding to -stay- and not simply move or dodge the stolen kite. But that bad kite would not have happened if the bad apple wasn't dpsing from a mile away for no reason, to the detriment of the group.

How to combat the stigmas and prejudices that are formed from player behavior? I don't know, that's definitely a humanity issue, not sure what zos can do about that. In that aspect yes, it is 100% player issue.

Like I mentioned in my first post, experienced players can make use of the build, and for the fake healer issue, I'm more than certain an experienced healer/player can fake heal and not get noticed. The problem is that there's only a small amount of experienced players and large amount of inexperienced players who use the build and fake queue to the point the stigma is created. It's a player issue yes, and nothing can stop social media from recommending the build like it's a holy grail (seriously, if you check the subreddit, there's a post every few days of someone showing off them obtaining oakensoul).The only thing ZOS can do about this problem is provide in game resources to learn how to play the game, and a way to better progress into harder content because the gap between overland/normal dungeons and vet content is pretty huge