Your Play Experience b/t Update 45 and Update 46 with Subclassing and Scribing In Base Game

TheValkyn · August 31

Saturday Night
One dc bar in grey host tonight and 0 ad/ep.
0 bars in RW.
0 bars in Blackreach.
0 bars in Icereach.

Congrats ZOS. You destroyed a game community in a single patch and not a single word from you.

diamondo · September 1

Well there was a word mentioned on the patch updates that essentially said nothing is changing until we get further data.

I mean the lived experience as a player who does not subclass is awful and only getting worse as players fine tune these builds. It’s getting to the point now where these players are for the most part unkillable, heals for days endless sustain and high level dps all in one package.

Cleanses on demand for most players so my favourite style of play has lost a lot of power. Then to top that off I’m having to build so much into critical resistance it’s unreal.

I love the game but said I’d give the game three months after which without some serious changes I’m off cause it’s not fun anymore

Tornaad · September 2

I really wish it was easier to figure out what helps my character the most when trying to make a build. It was already difficult enough that I had to turn to streamers for any and all effective builds I ever wanted to play, with subclassing, that problem will only become worse.
I love the idea of it. I just wish it was easier to figure out what made a good build a lot easier.

olsborg · September 17

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Any and all feedback is helpful for us to relay back to the Combat Team. That way, they have anecdotal experience to add to their existing data. Thanks in advance to all constructive feedback!

(This is strictly to get feedback on your play experience between Update 45 and Update 46. We are not factoring Update 47 PTS feedback in this since it is not available to everyone at the moment).

I basicly quit ESO after subclassing was released, it killed class identity and broke the game balance even more. I have 5 friends that also played and all of them also quit at around the same time as me. We only log in during Venegance now to play good balanced pvp.

Lysorris · September 17

Playing pure class is not only weaker in realtion to suclassing but also in relation the class they were before subclassing existed. Due to subclassing literally having no restrictons on borrowed skill lines and giving nothing in return to pure classes and only taking away due to "balance" it makes such a nothing burger.

Subclassing also does not feel like a "sub" classsing but "multi" classing. No skill line is a "sub" line of class - they are all equal and choosing 3 DPS line is obviosly OP. You don't have to have spreadsheet to calculate that! DPS + DPS + DPS = DPSx3.

Subclassing will never be balanced in a way ZoS is approching it now. Subclassing should have skill line restrictions or buff to classes.
Some ideas that are easier to implement than balance (which is impossible):
- You can only subclass ONE skill line,
- You can borrow two but with no passives,
- You can borrow two but passives have half of the value,
- Your own class skill lines passives values are enhanced,
- Your own class skill lines passvies work for ALL class skill not only skill lines in which they're are included; example
From:
- Casting *SKILL LINE NAME* ability while are in combat generates 4 Ultimate.
To:
- Casting *CLASS* ability while are in combat generates 4 Ultimate.

I would also say something about the beam but I don't want to be threatened.

Ragnarok0130 · September 18

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All! We are looking to understand how Update 46 and the launch of Subclassing, and more recently making Scribing a part of the base game, may have changed the play experience and character build for you and the content you engage in.
Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?

What game content was it?

Any and all feedback is helpful for us to relay back to the Combat Team. That way, they have anecdotal experience to add to their existing data. Thanks in advance to all constructive feedback!

(This is strictly to get feedback on your play experience between Update 45 and Update 46. We are not factoring Update 47 PTS feedback in this since it is not available to everyone at the moment).

My experience has been decidedly negative. All of my raiding guilds that actually survived U35 disbanded for U46 due to subclassing. Now I barely see any friends online and need to find a new raiding home. Thank you combat devs for ignoring all of the PTS feedback and making our gameplay experience "better". Now please find a way to compensate so pure classes aren't just automatically the worst option compared to subclassing.

Kendaric · September 19

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All! We are looking to understand how Update 46 and the launch of Subclassing, and more recently making Scribing a part of the base game, may have changed the play experience and character build for you and the content you engage in.
Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?

What game content was it?

Any and all feedback is helpful for us to relay back to the Combat Team. That way, they have anecdotal experience to add to their existing data. Thanks in advance to all constructive feedback!

(This is strictly to get feedback on your play experience between Update 45 and Update 46. We are not factoring Update 47 PTS feedback in this since it is not available to everyone at the moment).

Subclassing has been a mixed bag for me, as I generally use very few class skills, if any at all. I mainly take class skill lines due to wanting the passives like "Balanced Warrior" from the templar.
So effectively my ability to do content or lack thereof wasn't affected by subclassing at all. I should also add that I play only characters built for RP, so I don't really care about power or balance at all. I neither do PvP nor dungeons, trials or the archives and stick completely to world content like delves, public dungeons and exploration.

As for scribing, I've yet to use any of the skills it provides as I find most of the choices unappealing to be honest. The only skills I'm interested in currently are: Vault, Torch Bearer and the banner from the PvP line.
I'm most definitely NOT at all interested in throwing my shield like Captain America or have daggers float around me or similar things.

What I'd want out of scribing would be something like more generic stuff like a fireball, a true lightning bolt or being able to modify existing skills like removing the built-in taunt from "Puncture" (first skill in the sword and shield line).
What I'd like to see from subclassing is something like entirely new skill lines like the plant based stuff Beragon uses to fight (and several enemies such as various Recollection goons and fauns as well) .

The name subclassing is somewhat misleading, taking skill lines from another class is more akin to multiclassing than actual subclassing.

Radiate77 · September 20

I will never understand why people blame Subclassing for poorly balanced skill lines.

Even without Subclassing, everyone played an Arcanist in PvE, and either a Sorcerer, Warden, or Nightblade in PvP.

The same people that don’t want to play with you if you’re not using certain skill lines, are the same ones that expected you to fully level a new character and farm out skill points to play a specific class in the first place, and if it’s exhausting to fight the same three classes on repeat I agree. This has been a problem, not one that came with Subclassing.

tomofhyrule · September 20

Radiate77 wrote: »

I will never understand why people blame Subclassing for poorly balanced skill lines.

Even without Subclassing, everyone played an Arcanist in PvE, and either a Sorcerer, Warden, or Nightblade in PvP.

The same people that don’t want to play with you if you’re not using certain skill lines, are the same ones that expected you to fully level a new character and farm out skill points to play a specific class in the first place, and if it’s exhausting to fight the same three classes on repeat I agree. This has been a problem, not one that came with Subclassing.

Really? As someone who does HM trials, I can say that's not entirely true.

Yes, all parse DPS were arcanists for a while. And we complained about that at that point. But we also usually had an MKSorc, and/or a Z'en DK, and/or a Templar execute bot, and/or a corpseburster Necro...
aka, there were reasons to bring other classes. They had their place. And players who were good at one class could argue that they could come because they could still do high damage.

As an example, here's our log for my DB (U44, before Subclassing)

6/7 classes represented, 5 of which were on a DPS role. Necro with a top parse, and all non-support DPS non-Arcanists in the top 4 of DPS. Because our raid lead understood that some people prefer playing on a different role and can do better with it.

The idea is that each class can do a range of numbers, not just one. So someone who's good at e.g. NB DPS can push it to (making up numbers here) 120k, but that's finicky so most people can only do like 70k. Let's also assume an Arc pro can do like 110k and a new player does around 90k. Which is better? Obviously having everyone on NBs to get the highest numbers right? No, of course not - give a bunch of people NBs and most are doing the 70k instead of the 120k. That's why people gravitate to Arc since you have a high floor. But that pro NB can do more, so let them and you get even higher numbers.

The problem is that Subclassing made it so Herald/Assassination Arcanist was so ridiculously much better than anything else that you can't do that anymore. Now instead of having one class with a 70-120k spread and another with 90-110k, you've got something like 50-100k for anything else, and 130-150k for the meta. So why would anyone want a pro who can do 100k with their setup when a new player can break 130k on something else?

Now, there is no reason not to have an ArcBladePlar. At all. "Balance was bad before" is not an excuse to say that it's okay to make it worse now.

Radiate77 · September 20

@tomofhyrule what are you even on about?

As someone who ALSO does HM Trials, (not really a flex in a game this easy) I’m not saying that things are fine… I don’t think anyone really is.

Subclassing works in a game where skill lines are balanced. If the opportunity cost to use Ardent Flame was the same as Stormcalling, and in turn, the same as Herald of the Tome, that would be a perfect setting for Subclassing.

That’s not the case, and it hasn’t been.

Does that make Subclassing the problem? When every class other than Arcanist is relegated to a Support role of some kind, just like it was with Dragonknight before, is that acceptable from a gameplay standpoint? How is that any different from now? Instead of Arcanist, you have ArcBladePlar, and an entire cast of Support Skill Lines. We are at the exact place we were before the update.

What people should really be up in arms about, is the fact that a system so game-changing dropped without any follow-up whatsoever. We have now had multiple patches without any significant change to the state of combat after the game was essentially rewritten.

Instead of making more options appealing, they have allowed the current meta to fester, and allowed the real problem… a severe lack of Skill Line balance, to persist for years now.

tomofhyrule · September 20

Radiate77 wrote: »

tomofhyrule what are you even on about?

As someone who ALSO does HM Trials, (not really a flex in a game this easy) I’m not saying that things are fine… I don’t think anyone really is.

Subclassing works in a game where skill lines are balanced. If the opportunity cost to use Ardent Flame was the same as Stormcalling, and in turn, the same as Herald of the Tome, that would be a perfect setting for Subclassing.

That’s not the case, and it hasn’t been.
Did Subclassing exacerbate the problem? Sure.

What people should really be up in arms about, is the fact that a system so game-changing dropped without any follow-up whatsoever. We have now had multiple patches without any significant change to the state of combat after the game was essentially rewritten.

Instead of making more options appealing, they have allowed the current meta to fester, and allowed the real problem… a severe lack of Skill Line balance, to become an even larger one.

It seems we are arguing the same thing: Balance was not perfect before, but now is so much worse.

My point is only that before U46, there were other Classes than Arcanist seen in high-level trials. After U46, the number of people who were doing higher-level content and not running meta is so much smaller.

In a game like ESO where all lines are different, perfect balance is an illusion. It will never be possible for all lines to be 100% equal without them just being recolors of each other (which is also not fun because then everything's the same). However, players who didn't want to just Fatecarver their way through everything did have a reasonable option not to do so.

What I would like is for ZOS to not only acknowledge that Subclassing threw a nuke on the balance of the game, but also to admit that maybe the result wasn't the "everybody has total freedom" they wanted and the reality was more "there is one OP build that is so much more powerful than everything else and if you don't run that exact setup you're griefing." They really need to try something to balance it, and not in a simple "let's just nerf skill X" way that will hurt pureclass builds so much more than others. And the fact that U47 and U48 have done practically nothing to try to balance anything is nothing short of appalling.

Radiate77 · September 20

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

tomofhyrule what are you even on about?

As someone who ALSO does HM Trials, (not really a flex in a game this easy) I’m not saying that things are fine… I don’t think anyone really is.

Subclassing works in a game where skill lines are balanced. If the opportunity cost to use Ardent Flame was the same as Stormcalling, and in turn, the same as Herald of the Tome, that would be a perfect setting for Subclassing.

That’s not the case, and it hasn’t been.
Did Subclassing exacerbate the problem? Sure.

What people should really be up in arms about, is the fact that a system so game-changing dropped without any follow-up whatsoever. We have now had multiple patches without any significant change to the state of combat after the game was essentially rewritten.

Instead of making more options appealing, they have allowed the current meta to fester, and allowed the real problem… a severe lack of Skill Line balance, to become an even larger one.

It seems we are arguing the same thing: Balance was not perfect before, but now is so much worse.

My point is only that before U46, there were other Classes than Arcanist seen in high-level trials. After U46, the number of people who were doing higher-level content and not running meta is so much smaller.

Having other classes along for the ride, as Support options, for the real star of the show Arcanist, is near identical to what we’re seeing with ArcBladePlar. Except instead of classes, it’s Skill Lines now…

tomofhyrule wrote: »

In a game like ESO where all lines are different, perfect balance is an illusion. It will never be possible for all lines to be 100% equal without them just being recolors of each other (which is also not fun because then everything's the same). However, players who didn't want to just Fatecarver their way through everything did have a reasonable option not to do so.

This could be accomplished in so many different ways, while still allowing everything to feel different. For example, if a skill does damage and heals, while another does damage and provides heal negation, they are the same, but different, yes?

Apparently they have a spreadsheet, perhaps they should use it.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

...the fact that U47 and U48 have done practically nothing to try to balance anything is nothing short of appalling.

Right, this is what we should ALL be up in arms about, it’s disgusting that they threw this at us and told us to fend for ourselves, and the active player count shows it.

tomofhyrule · September 20

Radiate77 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

tomofhyrule what are you even on about?

As someone who ALSO does HM Trials, (not really a flex in a game this easy) I’m not saying that things are fine… I don’t think anyone really is.

Subclassing works in a game where skill lines are balanced. If the opportunity cost to use Ardent Flame was the same as Stormcalling, and in turn, the same as Herald of the Tome, that would be a perfect setting for Subclassing.

That’s not the case, and it hasn’t been.
Did Subclassing exacerbate the problem? Sure.

What people should really be up in arms about, is the fact that a system so game-changing dropped without any follow-up whatsoever. We have now had multiple patches without any significant change to the state of combat after the game was essentially rewritten.

Instead of making more options appealing, they have allowed the current meta to fester, and allowed the real problem… a severe lack of Skill Line balance, to become an even larger one.

It seems we are arguing the same thing: Balance was not perfect before, but now is so much worse.

My point is only that before U46, there were other Classes than Arcanist seen in high-level trials. After U46, the number of people who were doing higher-level content and not running meta is so much smaller.

Having other classes along for the ride, as Support options, for the real star of the show Arcanist, is near identical to what we’re seeing with ArcBladePlar. Except instead of classes, it’s Skill Lines now…

I would argue that having the other way was better... before you may have had to wear some specific set but at least you could come along for the ride without needing to Fatecarver. I even know people who were happy to play their support DPS. Now it's "Beam or [snip]," because Arcbladeplar is so cracked that you get more damage from another Fatecarver is more than you'd get buffed from any support DPS.

Radiate77 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

In a game like ESO where all lines are different, perfect balance is an illusion. It will never be possible for all lines to be 100% equal without them just being recolors of each other (which is also not fun because then everything's the same). However, players who didn't want to just Fatecarver their way through everything did have a reasonable option not to do so.

This could be accomplished in so many different ways, while still allowing everything to feel different. For example, if a skill does damage and heals, while another does damage and provides heal negation, they are the same, but different, yes?

Apparently they have a spreadsheet, perhaps they should use it.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

...the fact that U47 and U48 have done practically nothing to try to balance anything is nothing short of appalling.

Right, this is what we should ALL be up in arms about, it’s disgusting that they threw this at us and told us to fend for ourselves, and the active player count shows it.

I completely agree, and I know may others do. Promises of "we have cool stuff coming" aren't going to hold much weight if there are no players around.

I see a lot of people keep trying to stick their heads in the sand about the player counts now, and it's a bit sad, really. True, we don't have the actual numbers because of course we don't. But by every metric we do have (Steam Charts, number of streamers, the amount of content coming from the content creator program, etc.), things are not healthy in the slightest.

I like the TES series and I can understand the desire to entice the "I only play solo RPGs!" group. But ESO is almost hard-focusing them to the exclusion of their high-level PvE and PvP bases. If they all leave, then all ESO has left are solo players, who have really nothing holding them to this game... and when TES6 finally does release, are those people going to stick around when they get their (moddable!) new hotness? What's going to entice them back to ESO when they can get everything they want - including not having to deal with other people - from TES6
[edited for profanity bypass]

mdjessup4906 · September 23

U46: or whatever cureent patch is now they're all bleeding together in my head.

Still love having winters on my necro tank.
Also love being able to have bound aegis on my necro tank.
And so is earthen, fine. Has dk ever been bad for anything ever?

Hate that my arc cant wear banner anymore and not feel like ***. And now i dread being asked to do support dps because guess what, support is banner now and I miss not hating it.

And because of the above im stuck farming a million skyshards on my stupid dk because dk is the best banner now and I don't want to play a dk. Or farm a million skyshards when I just want to play my arc.

mdjessup4906 · September 23

I also wish stormcalling was better for trifecta level gameplay. Hurricane and streak are fun, but no, has to be aedric or ardent or its ***. Or sometimes both. I dont want to be a templar either.

Except for Dawn's wrath, that ones grown on me.

Biff_Brendane · September 24

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All! We are looking to understand how Update 46 and the launch of Subclassing, and more recently making Scribing a part of the base game, may have changed the play experience and character build for you and the content you engage in.
Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?

What game content was it?

Any and all feedback is helpful for us to relay back to the Combat Team. That way, they have anecdotal experience to add to their existing data. Thanks in advance to all constructive feedback!

(This is strictly to get feedback on your play experience between Update 45 and Update 46. We are not factoring Update 47 PTS feedback in this since it is not available to everyone at the moment).

I am so glad you asked. I actually came here today to start a petition to revert subclassing with zero expectation anyone at zos would care. Thank you for this post!

[*] Neither my ability to play nor was content improved by subclassing.

In fact, subclassing has actually reduced enjoyment of the game for me. And here's why:

1) Right now, every and I mean EVERY pve dps build requires assassin/aedric spear to be competitive. And it looks like most people are just stacking those onto arcanist. And when they get nerfed, everyone is going to flock right over to gravelord and that will be the new Required subclass. Until that gets nerfed too, and so on.

1a) This has destroyed player character diversity. Not only is everyone else running the exact same builds, they expect you to as well. And you have to. The damage bonuses from the flavor-of-the-month subclasses will always outperform a pure class in a trial environment.

1b) This has destroyed class synergies. Fun little combos and passives that provided class identity, resource sustain, and actual group synergies have dried up and blown away. Arcanist especially has been hurt by this, since passives from all three skill lines are great when used in conjunction with other arcanist skill lines. DK sustain has been kicked in the nuts.

1c) This forces us to switch characters or armory builds to do any other role/content, because these subclassed builds are just too specialized to perform well in a solo environment. And that burns. I like to play my main for all content. Constantly hitting the armory is getting very tedious. To the point where the game isn't fun. Hell, just trying to be a pinch-hitter-healer for when the real healer dc's is not even possible anymore.

2) Since subclassing hit, every two-bit-tower-hvmper in cyrodiil has gone animal companion/grave lord/assassin. It was funny at first. Then I tried it. You cannot in good conscience play anything else if you aren't in a group. It is an unstoppable burst killing machine with infinite health and infinite FREE cleanses. And I have no doubt if it gets nerfed, those scoundrels will just come up with something else just as bad. And a week later, everyone else will copy them. This kills diversity. Not only is every opponent I meet running the same broken combos, but I have to as well to remain competitive. And there's no subtle counter play to it either, just a relentless awful grindy stalemate until another 4 or 5 people show up on one side or the other to tip the scales. This is just not fun.

3) I just don't like it. It kills the magic/feel of the character I have mained for the last ten years.

And that last point leads to a very simple idea;

Gamers played ESO because they liked how it worked. The way the game works has changed. How many gamers will continue to play?

Does the management really believe "subclassing" is going to bring in enough new players to replace the old? I don't think it will. For anyone outside of the game it is going to sound like some tedious little rules change. For anyone inside the game already, it is game breaking. AND NO ONE I KNOW ASKED FOR IT! Not a single member of my trials guilds, and no one in my organized pvp groups. I can't imagine the housing whales wanted this either... and we all know they're the ones who pay the bills around here. So why do it? Yes, the old TES's were classless, but the few TES players temporarily here will leave again as soon as the next remake of skyrim comes out anyway. IF TES6 ever releases, they'll never come back. And don't forget, they couldn't support this game when it first came out even when they were here in significant numbers.

Please revert/remove subclassing. I am telling you, if that is the only thing you did next update, players would cite that as the best update the game ever had.

If you want to improve retention or bring in new blood, quit fooling around with retroactive rules changes and add new content....

Like player controlled pirate ships, or companion pet battles, or optimizing the code to make the game more stable.

Radiate77 · September 24

Biff_Brendane wrote: »

AND NO ONE HERE ASKED FOR IT!

There have been MANY requests for ESO to be more in line with traditional TES games, and one of the pain points since launch was that the game was alt heavy.

Happy players don’t come to a forum to voice their opinion often, I’d wager there are a lot more people enjoying Subclassing, then those who don’t.

Just look at its use-case.

If everyone hated the system, nobody would use it and there would be no peer-pressure to slot certain skill lines, if it was so unanimously hated, people would be more understanding to those who don’t want to Subclass, right?

Radiate77 · September 24

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

Yes, my entire experience improved.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?

Before the update I played my Necromancer most of the time.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?

Being able to take out Living Death and Bone Tyrant has been a huge improvement to my character.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

What game content was it?

All of it. Necromancer was in a terrible spot.

Also want to add, I’ve been having so much fun with new skill line synergies, like being able to use Repentance on my Skeletons, and would love to see you guys go further with this route.

Biff_Brendane · September 25

Radiate77 wrote: »

AND NO ONE HERE I KNOW ASKED FOR IT!

Alright, I edited that line just for you.

Radiate77 wrote: »

There have been MANY requests for ESO to be more in line with traditional TES games, and one of the pain points since launch was that the game was alt heavy.

There are not enough TES players to support TESO. Never was. That's why the subscription model failed. That's why we have the mtx shop, loot crate gambling, and house-whales. TBH, if it wasn't for all the wowc players that came here from Shadowlands, ESO would not have the success it has today. And there is a lesson in that - disrespect the players enough times, and they will leave.

Radiate77 wrote: »

If everyone hated the system, nobody would use it and there would be no peer-pressure to slot certain skill lines, if it was so unanimously hated, people would be more understanding to those who don’t want to Subclass, right?

Competitive players are forced into subclassing to remain competitive. "Understanding" is not applicable in this situation.

EDIT #15: Look, I agree that necromancers were trash. It's because arcanists came out. When the next expansion class comes, they will nerf arcanists to the ground too. But don't advocate for ruining the whole game for everyone else because your flavor of the month expac class got nerfed.

Dock01 · September 25

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

NO BG 4v4 is obviously artificial. Stop forcing players into losing streaks. My team barely gets a healer while the enemy always has one. Healing is already busted, self-heal isn’t enough, and that should be common sense, yet here we are. i bet if you remove that bonus exp or any type of good rewards bg wouldnt have enough players to have a match , itll be less than it is now, its never fun its awful weird clunky full of exploiters no anti cheats why bother even making this mode in the first place ?

L33T_BEANS · September 26

Last logged in maybe in early July. It's been downhill since Telvanni DLC with the degradation of skilled gameplay becoming a cesspit of beaming and heavy attacking. Instead of addressing any overpowered skills, they just gave everyone access to them and the results speak for themselves now, in both PVP and PVE.

I'll say it easy, subclassing is awful. Full removal and replacement with something else is my only feedback. If ZOS is asking because you've noticed a dip in player count/subscriptions, I am of that group, and that's my answer. This is not a quitting post, just my 2 cents as someone who has left the game already, but willing to go back to it, and pay for ESO+ if changes are made since I still appreciate other parts of the game.

I don't mind stuff like heavy attacking, or beam spam, but that is simple low skill gameplay, and it should never compete with higher CPM gameplay, or more skilled player ability IMO.