I do believe population is small enough that your mmr system would need to constantly grab players of vastly different skill levels, so let's lean on other mechanics.MincMincMinc wrote: »So if the matchmaking search had to expand enough it would still put players of vastly different skill levels in the same matches, right?
Yes, (...) Even if the population of bgs collapsed to say 30 people, the MMR system would still function, but in these more niche scenarios you would then start leaning on other mechanics to prevent issues.
MincMincMinc wrote: »Did zos ever publish what plays into MMR? Or are we just assuming it is scoreboard based just adding up until reset?
MincMincMinc wrote: »I just bring up the next step because once you fix the reset issue, the problem is that the scoreboard scored still wont split up between someone who is a diehard PvP player who plays only a few matches a week vs someone who farms their daily matches every day. Actually the way it is set up I am willing to bet the daily objective farmer will net more per match in "MMR"
I do believe population is small enough that your mmr system would need to constantly grab players of vastly different skill levels, so let's lean on other mechanics.MincMincMinc wrote: »So if the matchmaking search had to expand enough it would still put players of vastly different skill levels in the same matches, right?
Yes, (...) Even if the population of bgs collapsed to say 30 people, the MMR system would still function, but in these more niche scenarios you would then start leaning on other mechanics to prevent issues.
There’s plenty of people in BG’s. I play on both PCNA & XBNA and there’s a consistent population.
As for skilled vs non skilled; that’s really not the cause of our issues.
The problems with BG’s right now are not because “experienced” players are being matched with “inexperienced” ones, that’s not the trend in BG match data we’re seeing.
The problems are mechanical based not experience based.
As for skilled vs non skilled; that’s really not the cause of our issues.
The problems with BG’s right now are not because “experienced” players are being matched with “inexperienced” ones, that’s not the trend in BG match data we’re seeing.
The problems are mechanical based not experience based.
As for skilled vs non skilled; that’s really not the cause of our issues.
The problems with BG’s right now are not because “experienced” players are being matched with “inexperienced” ones, that’s not the trend in BG match data we’re seeing.
The problems are mechanical based not experience based.
Man, your opinion is diametrically opposed to my own observations of 2-team BGs. Would you be able to elaborate on what exactly is going wrong mechanically, that can't be explained by them mixing the noobs and the sweats together?
As for skilled vs non skilled; that’s really not the cause of our issues.
The problems with BG’s right now are not because “experienced” players are being matched with “inexperienced” ones, that’s not the trend in BG match data we’re seeing.
The problems are mechanical based not experience based.
Man, your opinion is diametrically opposed to my own observations of 2-team BGs. Would you be able to elaborate on what exactly is going wrong mechanically, that can't be explained by them mixing the noobs and the sweats together?
Mixing experienced players and new players will always have a disparity in gameplay and that’s to be expected.
But what I’m talking about are the HEAVY imbalances in BG result trends, specifically, post subclassing.
We’re still seeing matches whereby a select two or three players far outpace the group average or trend in KDA, and that’s accounting for experienced players being on both sides of the field in matches.
I’m citing mechanics because the trend has gotten worse since SC and it’s not as if all of a sudden players got immensely more experience or out of nowhere we got in influx of noobs.
The state of BG’s has worsened, and more significantly recently. It’s unrealistic for any of us to assume that there have been drastic changes in the skill levels of players that is resulting in a consistent mis match of “super experienced” players versus “noobs” on a regular basis. There have always been a mix of experience bases in BG’s, that’s not new.
So that leaves mechanics.
And that makes sense when you do a deeper dive looking at feedback from these official forms, plus what’s contributed on Steam & Reddit, and other platforms.
Players are quickly figuring out which combination of build mechanics result in the least amount of counterplay and THAT is what’s making BG’s worse.
As for skilled vs non skilled; that’s really not the cause of our issues.
The problems with BG’s right now are not because “experienced” players are being matched with “inexperienced” ones, that’s not the trend in BG match data we’re seeing.
The problems are mechanical based not experience based.
Man, your opinion is diametrically opposed to my own observations of 2-team BGs. Would you be able to elaborate on what exactly is going wrong mechanically, that can't be explained by them mixing the noobs and the sweats together?
Mixing experienced players and new players will always have a disparity in gameplay and that’s to be expected.
But what I’m talking about are the HEAVY imbalances in BG result trends, specifically, post subclassing.
We’re still seeing matches whereby a select two or three players far outpace the group average or trend in KDA, and that’s accounting for experienced players being on both sides of the field in matches.
I’m citing mechanics because the trend has gotten worse since SC and it’s not as if all of a sudden players got immensely more experience or out of nowhere we got in influx of noobs.
The state of BG’s has worsened, and more significantly recently. It’s unrealistic for any of us to assume that there have been drastic changes in the skill levels of players that is resulting in a consistent mis match of “super experienced” players versus “noobs” on a regular basis. There have always been a mix of experience bases in BG’s, that’s not new.
So that leaves mechanics.
And that makes sense when you do a deeper dive looking at feedback from these official forms, plus what’s contributed on Steam & Reddit, and other platforms.
Players are quickly figuring out which combination of build mechanics result in the least amount of counterplay and THAT is what’s making BG’s worse.
Thanks for elaborating. I understand more clearly where you're coming from now. I agree the game always did mix players of different skill levels in some respects because the MMR system isn't perfect. People who play a lot will get a higher MMR rating than their actual skill level would suggest, and sometimes during off hours there was a little mixing of the MMR brackets to make sure games pop. This is healthy for the game. This is the kind of scenario that inspires a player to get better. Being mostly amongst players of a similar level, but having an experience with players that remind you there is still a ways to go.
The thing I think you're missing is that pre-U44 (so a while before subclassings shift to a crit damage meta), there was a lower band of MMR, that you as an experienced BG player, would only compete in for maybe one or two games on a new character. In that sense the pool of people you would come into contact with has grown to regularly include players who are pretty much new to the game, at least the PVP side of the game.
What would you consider to be uncounterable gameplay? I can't say I recognise your name from PCNA, so I'm not sure of your specific playstyle etc.
I get what you mean about MMR, but at the same time are we really seeing such an influx of new players that the disparity between “high experience” and “very low experience” among the population is that high?
As for the lack of counter play that has to do with the mixing of mechanics. Prior to SC, each class had aspects of risk versus reward in the nature of how their abilities were built. That’s not to say that any one class was meant for any particular role, but let’s take NB, for example. This class has always had hugh burst damage potential and crit enhancement enabling a lot of single target burst damage. The counter play to this was a degree of stealth detection paired with the fact that NB’s had less durability & utility; a NB (played properly) needed to try and avoid damage, this was the counter play. But now, NB’s can slot durability & utility like Crit Surge, Hardened Ward, Vibrant Shroud, or Sun Shield. Now these builds don’t have to have much of a care about avoiding damage, they can just take it because they’ve got an on demand source of strong mitigation & healing as well as some significant passives. This kills counter play because the by-design mechanics to combat NB have been filled in; and only the niche-est of builds can attempt to address that, and even then. It’s not as if, for example, a Warden is going to get as significant of a damage increase from slotting any other class skill line as what NB can achieve in durability so we have a disparity there.
Team got bombed once (only succeeded due to damage sigil) and promptly gave up. Three or four players immediately started to sacrifice themselves without even drawing weapons. Imagine giving up on a three-sided DM after a single wipe.
''4. People just give up a lot sooner because they can no longer fight for second place.''
Team got bombed once (only succeeded due to damage sigil) and promptly gave up. Three or four players immediately started to sacrifice themselves without even drawing weapons. Imagine giving up on a three-sided DM after a single wipe.
''4. People just give up a lot sooner because they can no longer fight for second place.''
As for skilled vs non skilled; that’s really not the cause of our issues.
The problems with BG’s right now are not because “experienced” players are being matched with “inexperienced” ones, that’s not the trend in BG match data we’re seeing.
The problems are mechanical based not experience based.
Man, your opinion is diametrically opposed to my own observations of 2-team BGs. Would you be able to elaborate on what exactly is going wrong mechanically, that can't be explained by them mixing the noobs and the sweats together?
Mixing experienced players and new players will always have a disparity in gameplay and that’s to be expected.
But what I’m talking about are the HEAVY imbalances in BG result trends, specifically, post subclassing.
We’re still seeing matches whereby a select two or three players far outpace the group average or trend in KDA, and that’s accounting for experienced players being on both sides of the field in matches.
I’m citing mechanics because the trend has gotten worse since SC and it’s not as if all of a sudden players got immensely more experience or out of nowhere we got in influx of noobs.
The state of BG’s has worsened, and more significantly recently. It’s unrealistic for any of us to assume that there have been drastic changes in the skill levels of players that is resulting in a consistent mis match of “super experienced” players versus “noobs” on a regular basis. There have always been a mix of experience bases in BG’s, that’s not new.
So that leaves mechanics.
And that makes sense when you do a deeper dive looking at feedback from these official forms, plus what’s contributed on Steam & Reddit, and other platforms.
Players are quickly figuring out which combination of build mechanics result in the least amount of counterplay and THAT is what’s making BG’s worse.
Thanks for elaborating. I understand more clearly where you're coming from now. I agree the game always did mix players of different skill levels in some respects because the MMR system isn't perfect. People who play a lot will get a higher MMR rating than their actual skill level would suggest, and sometimes during off hours there was a little mixing of the MMR brackets to make sure games pop. This is healthy for the game. This is the kind of scenario that inspires a player to get better. Being mostly amongst players of a similar level, but having an experience with players that remind you there is still a ways to go.
The thing I think you're missing is that pre-U44 (so a while before subclassings shift to a crit damage meta), there was a lower band of MMR, that you as an experienced BG player, would only compete in for maybe one or two games on a new character. In that sense the pool of people you would come into contact with has grown to regularly include players who are pretty much new to the game, at least the PVP side of the game.
What would you consider to be uncounterable gameplay? I can't say I recognise your name from PCNA, so I'm not sure of your specific playstyle etc.
Agreed. A mix of player experience in PvP is healthy and I don’t have an issue with that because, as you say, it helps improve those learning the game.
I get what you mean about MMR, but at the same time are we really seeing such an influx of new players that the disparity between “high experience” and “very low experience” among the population is that high?
.
.
IMO the metas have confined now; sure it’s crit based but it’s not just that they’re crit based, it’s how the ceiling has been raised on durability in PvP that’s souring the milk. Not all abilites behave the same way, mechanically. Those mechanical differences added to the give and take of PvP before.
I get what you mean about MMR, but at the same time are we really seeing such an influx of new players that the disparity between “high experience” and “very low experience” among the population is that high?
Yes and no. Yes, there has been a huge influx of new and returning players due to the Oblivion remake and subclassing respectively, but that isn't what we are talking about here. The disparity was always there, just now you are being exposed to it constantly, rather than the people with the least experience being matched against each other for the most part. It's easy to underestimate how many people were populating that lowest level of MMR.As for the lack of counter play that has to do with the mixing of mechanics. Prior to SC, each class had aspects of risk versus reward in the nature of how their abilities were built. That’s not to say that any one class was meant for any particular role, but let’s take NB, for example. This class has always had hugh burst damage potential and crit enhancement enabling a lot of single target burst damage. The counter play to this was a degree of stealth detection paired with the fact that NB’s had less durability & utility; a NB (played properly) needed to try and avoid damage, this was the counter play. But now, NB’s can slot durability & utility like Crit Surge, Hardened Ward, Vibrant Shroud, or Sun Shield. Now these builds don’t have to have much of a care about avoiding damage, they can just take it because they’ve got an on demand source of strong mitigation & healing as well as some significant passives. This kills counter play because the by-design mechanics to combat NB have been filled in; and only the niche-est of builds can attempt to address that, and even then. It’s not as if, for example, a Warden is going to get as significant of a damage increase from slotting any other class skill line as what NB can achieve in durability so we have a disparity there.
I'm not sure who you are fighting over on Xbox, but I can say pretty confidently I'm yet to see an NB pick up Deadric Summoning thru subclassing. Not even sorcs are running hardened ward anymore. NB is far more likely to pick up Aedric Spear, Animal Companions, Storm Calling or Grave Lord. Across the board we've seen people running a lot of damage lines and all of these players, while pumping out a lot of damage themselves, are equally susceptible to getting hit hard.
Off the top of my head the only play style with little counter-play at the moment is pairing warden class charm with RoA, but even in that niche case, you have options: immovability pots, focusing the player, avoiding stacking until they expose themself etc etc.
MincMincMinc wrote: »Team got bombed once (only succeeded due to damage sigil) and promptly gave up. Three or four players immediately started to sacrifice themselves without even drawing weapons. Imagine giving up on a three-sided DM after a single wipe.
''4. People just give up a lot sooner because they can no longer fight for second place.''
Yeah, but if the match was far more even, we probably wouldnt see people give up anyways. The 3 sided vs 2 sided argument is just a bandaid on a bullet wound.As for skilled vs non skilled; that’s really not the cause of our issues.
The problems with BG’s right now are not because “experienced” players are being matched with “inexperienced” ones, that’s not the trend in BG match data we’re seeing.
The problems are mechanical based not experience based.
Man, your opinion is diametrically opposed to my own observations of 2-team BGs. Would you be able to elaborate on what exactly is going wrong mechanically, that can't be explained by them mixing the noobs and the sweats together?
Mixing experienced players and new players will always have a disparity in gameplay and that’s to be expected.
But what I’m talking about are the HEAVY imbalances in BG result trends, specifically, post subclassing.
We’re still seeing matches whereby a select two or three players far outpace the group average or trend in KDA, and that’s accounting for experienced players being on both sides of the field in matches.
I’m citing mechanics because the trend has gotten worse since SC and it’s not as if all of a sudden players got immensely more experience or out of nowhere we got in influx of noobs.
The state of BG’s has worsened, and more significantly recently. It’s unrealistic for any of us to assume that there have been drastic changes in the skill levels of players that is resulting in a consistent mis match of “super experienced” players versus “noobs” on a regular basis. There have always been a mix of experience bases in BG’s, that’s not new.
So that leaves mechanics.
And that makes sense when you do a deeper dive looking at feedback from these official forms, plus what’s contributed on Steam & Reddit, and other platforms.
Players are quickly figuring out which combination of build mechanics result in the least amount of counterplay and THAT is what’s making BG’s worse.
Thanks for elaborating. I understand more clearly where you're coming from now. I agree the game always did mix players of different skill levels in some respects because the MMR system isn't perfect. People who play a lot will get a higher MMR rating than their actual skill level would suggest, and sometimes during off hours there was a little mixing of the MMR brackets to make sure games pop. This is healthy for the game. This is the kind of scenario that inspires a player to get better. Being mostly amongst players of a similar level, but having an experience with players that remind you there is still a ways to go.
The thing I think you're missing is that pre-U44 (so a while before subclassings shift to a crit damage meta), there was a lower band of MMR, that you as an experienced BG player, would only compete in for maybe one or two games on a new character. In that sense the pool of people you would come into contact with has grown to regularly include players who are pretty much new to the game, at least the PVP side of the game.
What would you consider to be uncounterable gameplay? I can't say I recognise your name from PCNA, so I'm not sure of your specific playstyle etc.
Agreed. A mix of player experience in PvP is healthy and I don’t have an issue with that because, as you say, it helps improve those learning the game.
I get what you mean about MMR, but at the same time are we really seeing such an influx of new players that the disparity between “high experience” and “very low experience” among the population is that high?
.
.
IMO the metas have confined now; sure it’s crit based but it’s not just that they’re crit based, it’s how the ceiling has been raised on durability in PvP that’s souring the milk. Not all abilites behave the same way, mechanically. Those mechanical differences added to the give and take of PvP before.
Well to a degree, a mix is a good thing. However as you seem to already understand the problem becomes when the skill OR build ceiling gets too high that newer players can't fathom fighting back. We actually have a good comparison with vengeance here so lets use it.
On live the great disparity happens with the build system due to power creep. Skills have 3x the effects on them. Certain enchants are more efficient than the standard. Certain mundus stones are more efficient. Certain traits are more efficient. Certain armor types are more efficient now.......Even down to certain stats being too easy to obtain, while others are completely useless. Live's build system and resulting combat system are such a mess that new players have no chance at starting to participate without having their hand held through the build process. Subclassing just had a multiplier effect where there are so many wrong choices to make for any build.
Vengeance lets us remove that for example, kinda works out for this discussion. In vengeance there is no build disparity, combat was purely dependent on player skill and technical mechanics. (This is why you hear alot of people whining that they want their proc sets back. Practically anyone who thought combat boiled down to just light attacks just doesn't technically understand the combat system. So imagine earlier in ESO's career, we used to be anywhere inbetween. In a way there is a sweetspot for both where you could have some level of build disparity between new and vet players, while at the same time having the same skill disparity.
How does this tie back into the bg discussion. Well once again the only answer at this point is an MMR system (assuming zos maintains live and doesnt implement the vengeance skills for another year or two). The above disparities CAN make newer players strive to improve, but once they are so far blown out of reach every person has a point where they give up. With the current state of the build system, that point is exceedingly low. I could make a build for a brand new player and throw them up against another brand new player and the fight will be a no contest every time. The MMR system would ideally try to get people only fighting other within that disparity window. Such that they know getting better is possible, without immediately wanting to quit.
I get what you mean about MMR, but at the same time are we really seeing such an influx of new players that the disparity between “high experience” and “very low experience” among the population is that high?
Yes and no. Yes, there has been a huge influx of new and returning players due to the Oblivion remake and subclassing respectively, but that isn't what we are talking about here. The disparity was always there, just now you are being exposed to it constantly, rather than the people with the least experience being matched against each other for the most part. It's easy to underestimate how many people were populating that lowest level of MMR.As for the lack of counter play that has to do with the mixing of mechanics. Prior to SC, each class had aspects of risk versus reward in the nature of how their abilities were built. That’s not to say that any one class was meant for any particular role, but let’s take NB, for example. This class has always had hugh burst damage potential and crit enhancement enabling a lot of single target burst damage. The counter play to this was a degree of stealth detection paired with the fact that NB’s had less durability & utility; a NB (played properly) needed to try and avoid damage, this was the counter play. But now, NB’s can slot durability & utility like Crit Surge, Hardened Ward, Vibrant Shroud, or Sun Shield. Now these builds don’t have to have much of a care about avoiding damage, they can just take it because they’ve got an on demand source of strong mitigation & healing as well as some significant passives. This kills counter play because the by-design mechanics to combat NB have been filled in; and only the niche-est of builds can attempt to address that, and even then. It’s not as if, for example, a Warden is going to get as significant of a damage increase from slotting any other class skill line as what NB can achieve in durability so we have a disparity there.
I'm not sure who you are fighting over on Xbox, but I can say pretty confidently I'm yet to see an NB pick up Deadric Summoning thru subclassing. Not even sorcs are running hardened ward anymore. NB is far more likely to pick up Aedric Spear, Animal Companions, Storm Calling or Grave Lord. Across the board we've seen people running a lot of damage lines and all of these players, while pumping out a lot of damage themselves, are equally susceptible to getting hit hard.
Off the top of my head the only play style with little counter-play at the moment is pairing warden class charm with RoA, but even in that niche case, you have options: immovability pots, focusing the player, avoiding stacking until they expose themself etc etc.
Oh then I can tell you XB is significantly different from what you’re seeing on PCNA …. EVERYBODY is running HW over here! Storm calling has some pickup on this platform but it’s minor, the VAST majority of builds are slotting either Assassination or Aedric Spear.
Right now, on XBNA your NB & Templars have the least amount of counterplay. Their offense is incredibly strong and their exposure is now incredibly minimal. Those classes aren’t susceptible to getting hit hard because they’re able to change gear sets and slot benefits that give them mitigation they didn’t previously have access to IF they wanted to maintain their damage output; now, they can maintain the damage and have the mitigation.
Right now we’ve got some meta builds that are actively maintaining their offense while being blasted with 60k, 70k, 80k base points of damage … now if they’re actively attacking during that kind of damage allocation that means they aren’t blocking, they aren’t running, they literally are passively mitigating THAT much damage to the point that they aren’t concerned with the concept of combat mechanics, offense versus defense. That’s a major problem.
There have been conversations addressing the mitigation concerns with ESO before and what I’m seeing now, subclassing had made that far worse and that’s the larger contributor to what I’m seeing in BG match outcomes.
I’m still playing the game names I’ve seen for the last 2 years, sure there’s a few new ones here and there but you get used to seeing people and there’s a solid consistency here. The difference is in the outcomes, not who I’m seeing playing in matches.
This might be a good example of population spread difference between platforms. When it comes to testing or collecting data I like to use environments that have the most consistency across the board. IMO XB has more of that as the hardware & software swings are much less of a factor in results.
Team got bombed once (only succeeded due to damage sigil) and promptly gave up. Three or four players immediately started to sacrifice themselves without even drawing weapons. Imagine giving up on a three-sided DM after a single wipe.
''4. People just give up a lot sooner because they can no longer fight for second place.''
In 3-team BGs they would have sat in spawn while the two better teams fought below them, picking them off if they decided to jump down or step to close to the edge.
MincMincMinc wrote: »Team got bombed once (only succeeded due to damage sigil) and promptly gave up. Three or four players immediately started to sacrifice themselves without even drawing weapons. Imagine giving up on a three-sided DM after a single wipe.
''4. People just give up a lot sooner because they can no longer fight for second place.''
Yeah, but if the match was far more even, we probably wouldnt see people give up anyways. The 3 sided vs 2 sided argument is just a bandaid on a bullet wound.As for skilled vs non skilled; that’s really not the cause of our issues.
The problems with BG’s right now are not because “experienced” players are being matched with “inexperienced” ones, that’s not the trend in BG match data we’re seeing.
The problems are mechanical based not experience based.
Man, your opinion is diametrically opposed to my own observations of 2-team BGs. Would you be able to elaborate on what exactly is going wrong mechanically, that can't be explained by them mixing the noobs and the sweats together?
Mixing experienced players and new players will always have a disparity in gameplay and that’s to be expected.
But what I’m talking about are the HEAVY imbalances in BG result trends, specifically, post subclassing.
We’re still seeing matches whereby a select two or three players far outpace the group average or trend in KDA, and that’s accounting for experienced players being on both sides of the field in matches.
I’m citing mechanics because the trend has gotten worse since SC and it’s not as if all of a sudden players got immensely more experience or out of nowhere we got in influx of noobs.
The state of BG’s has worsened, and more significantly recently. It’s unrealistic for any of us to assume that there have been drastic changes in the skill levels of players that is resulting in a consistent mis match of “super experienced” players versus “noobs” on a regular basis. There have always been a mix of experience bases in BG’s, that’s not new.
So that leaves mechanics.
And that makes sense when you do a deeper dive looking at feedback from these official forms, plus what’s contributed on Steam & Reddit, and other platforms.
Players are quickly figuring out which combination of build mechanics result in the least amount of counterplay and THAT is what’s making BG’s worse.
Thanks for elaborating. I understand more clearly where you're coming from now. I agree the game always did mix players of different skill levels in some respects because the MMR system isn't perfect. People who play a lot will get a higher MMR rating than their actual skill level would suggest, and sometimes during off hours there was a little mixing of the MMR brackets to make sure games pop. This is healthy for the game. This is the kind of scenario that inspires a player to get better. Being mostly amongst players of a similar level, but having an experience with players that remind you there is still a ways to go.
The thing I think you're missing is that pre-U44 (so a while before subclassings shift to a crit damage meta), there was a lower band of MMR, that you as an experienced BG player, would only compete in for maybe one or two games on a new character. In that sense the pool of people you would come into contact with has grown to regularly include players who are pretty much new to the game, at least the PVP side of the game.
What would you consider to be uncounterable gameplay? I can't say I recognise your name from PCNA, so I'm not sure of your specific playstyle etc.
Agreed. A mix of player experience in PvP is healthy and I don’t have an issue with that because, as you say, it helps improve those learning the game.
I get what you mean about MMR, but at the same time are we really seeing such an influx of new players that the disparity between “high experience” and “very low experience” among the population is that high?
.
.
IMO the metas have confined now; sure it’s crit based but it’s not just that they’re crit based, it’s how the ceiling has been raised on durability in PvP that’s souring the milk. Not all abilites behave the same way, mechanically. Those mechanical differences added to the give and take of PvP before.
Well to a degree, a mix is a good thing. However as you seem to already understand the problem becomes when the skill OR build ceiling gets too high that newer players can't fathom fighting back. We actually have a good comparison with vengeance here so lets use it.
On live the great disparity happens with the build system due to power creep. Skills have 3x the effects on them. Certain enchants are more efficient than the standard. Certain mundus stones are more efficient. Certain traits are more efficient. Certain armor types are more efficient now.......Even down to certain stats being too easy to obtain, while others are completely useless. Live's build system and resulting combat system are such a mess that new players have no chance at starting to participate without having their hand held through the build process. Subclassing just had a multiplier effect where there are so many wrong choices to make for any build.
Vengeance lets us remove that for example, kinda works out for this discussion. In vengeance there is no build disparity, combat was purely dependent on player skill and technical mechanics. (This is why you hear alot of people whining that they want their proc sets back. Practically anyone who thought combat boiled down to just light attacks just doesn't technically understand the combat system. So imagine earlier in ESO's career, we used to be anywhere inbetween. In a way there is a sweetspot for both where you could have some level of build disparity between new and vet players, while at the same time having the same skill disparity.
How does this tie back into the bg discussion. Well once again the only answer at this point is an MMR system (assuming zos maintains live and doesnt implement the vengeance skills for another year or two). The above disparities CAN make newer players strive to improve, but once they are so far blown out of reach every person has a point where they give up. With the current state of the build system, that point is exceedingly low. I could make a build for a brand new player and throw them up against another brand new player and the fight will be a no contest every time. The MMR system would ideally try to get people only fighting other within that disparity window. Such that they know getting better is possible, without immediately wanting to quit.
I feel that … so in reality, an adjusted MMR as you’re suggesting wouldn’t just sort new players away from experienced players; it could potentially sort the power raised metas builds away from the other builds in matches?
If ZoS were to use a non-resetting MMR structure for this how would we keep players who do end up improving away from the metas … like, one presumes there’s a middle ground area in the data where those two sides would overlap and we’d still have problems … I’m just not certain how big that overlap would be.
I get what you mean about MMR, but at the same time are we really seeing such an influx of new players that the disparity between “high experience” and “very low experience” among the population is that high?
Yes and no. Yes, there has been a huge influx of new and returning players due to the Oblivion remake and subclassing respectively, but that isn't what we are talking about here. The disparity was always there, just now you are being exposed to it constantly, rather than the people with the least experience being matched against each other for the most part. It's easy to underestimate how many people were populating that lowest level of MMR.As for the lack of counter play that has to do with the mixing of mechanics. Prior to SC, each class had aspects of risk versus reward in the nature of how their abilities were built. That’s not to say that any one class was meant for any particular role, but let’s take NB, for example. This class has always had hugh burst damage potential and crit enhancement enabling a lot of single target burst damage. The counter play to this was a degree of stealth detection paired with the fact that NB’s had less durability & utility; a NB (played properly) needed to try and avoid damage, this was the counter play. But now, NB’s can slot durability & utility like Crit Surge, Hardened Ward, Vibrant Shroud, or Sun Shield. Now these builds don’t have to have much of a care about avoiding damage, they can just take it because they’ve got an on demand source of strong mitigation & healing as well as some significant passives. This kills counter play because the by-design mechanics to combat NB have been filled in; and only the niche-est of builds can attempt to address that, and even then. It’s not as if, for example, a Warden is going to get as significant of a damage increase from slotting any other class skill line as what NB can achieve in durability so we have a disparity there.
I'm not sure who you are fighting over on Xbox, but I can say pretty confidently I'm yet to see an NB pick up Deadric Summoning thru subclassing. Not even sorcs are running hardened ward anymore. NB is far more likely to pick up Aedric Spear, Animal Companions, Storm Calling or Grave Lord. Across the board we've seen people running a lot of damage lines and all of these players, while pumping out a lot of damage themselves, are equally susceptible to getting hit hard.
Off the top of my head the only play style with little counter-play at the moment is pairing warden class charm with RoA, but even in that niche case, you have options: immovability pots, focusing the player, avoiding stacking until they expose themself etc etc.
Oh then I can tell you XB is significantly different from what you’re seeing on PCNA …. EVERYBODY is running HW over here! Storm calling has some pickup on this platform but it’s minor, the VAST majority of builds are slotting either Assassination or Aedric Spear.
Right now, on XBNA your NB & Templars have the least amount of counterplay. Their offense is incredibly strong and their exposure is now incredibly minimal. Those classes aren’t susceptible to getting hit hard because they’re able to change gear sets and slot benefits that give them mitigation they didn’t previously have access to IF they wanted to maintain their damage output; now, they can maintain the damage and have the mitigation.
Right now we’ve got some meta builds that are actively maintaining their offense while being blasted with 60k, 70k, 80k base points of damage … now if they’re actively attacking during that kind of damage allocation that means they aren’t blocking, they aren’t running, they literally are passively mitigating THAT much damage to the point that they aren’t concerned with the concept of combat mechanics, offense versus defense. That’s a major problem.
There have been conversations addressing the mitigation concerns with ESO before and what I’m seeing now, subclassing had made that far worse and that’s the larger contributor to what I’m seeing in BG match outcomes.
I’m still playing the game names I’ve seen for the last 2 years, sure there’s a few new ones here and there but you get used to seeing people and there’s a solid consistency here. The difference is in the outcomes, not who I’m seeing playing in matches.
This might be a good example of population spread difference between platforms. When it comes to testing or collecting data I like to use environments that have the most consistency across the board. IMO XB has more of that as the hardware & software swings are much less of a factor in results.
I still cant grasp people actually using daedric summoning on XB lol. Not just one guy either, but it actually being popular. Such a mid skill line and ward really not worth it since the nerf. I don't suppose you have any gameplay of these BGs? Would be generally curious to see whats going on.
Obviously we have some tanky dds and tanky healers and even straight up tanks on PC, but I wouldnt consider any of the current meta builds "uncounterable".
If you have some clips I'd love to see them
Team got bombed once (only succeeded due to damage sigil) and promptly gave up. Three or four players immediately started to sacrifice themselves without even drawing weapons. Imagine giving up on a three-sided DM after a single wipe.
''4. People just give up a lot sooner because they can no longer fight for second place.''
In 3-team BGs they would have sat in spawn while the two better teams fought below them, picking them off if they decided to jump down or step to close to the edge.
Or I could have just healed their way out of the sandwich, thus forcing enemy teams to occupy the same space if they chose to pursue us (using one team against the other).
''1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, (...)''
Ok so assuming that mixing high and low MMR players is inevitable, we need to find ways to make the three-sided objective modes fun for everyone, regardless of skill level.MincMincMinc wrote: »So if the matchmaking search had to expand enough it would still put players of vastly different skill levels in the same matches, right?
Yes, (...) Even if the population of bgs collapsed to say 30 people, the MMR system would still function, but in these more niche scenarios you would then start leaning on other mechanics to prevent issues.
Ok so assuming that mixing high and low MMR players is inevitable, we need to find ways to make the three-sided objective modes fun for everyone, regardless of skill level.MincMincMinc wrote: »So if the matchmaking search had to expand enough it would still put players of vastly different skill levels in the same matches, right?
Yes, (...) Even if the population of bgs collapsed to say 30 people, the MMR system would still function, but in these more niche scenarios you would then start leaning on other mechanics to prevent issues.
Here's how I'd fix Domination and Crazy King:Even in the worst case scenario (two teams fight while the third flips all remaining flags uncontested), it would be impossible to end any of these matches in less than 10 minutes.
- Reduce the amount of points each flag gives per tick. Domination from 8 to 4, Crazy King from 8 to 6.
- Modify flags to require a minimum of two players to be fully captured. Solo players would still be able to hinder the opponents' progress by turning them white, but running around without even drawing weapons would no longer be the ultimate winning strategy.
@MincMincMinc Do you see any problem with these changes?
MincMincMinc wrote: »Ok so assuming that mixing high and low MMR players is inevitable, we need to find ways to make the three-sided objective modes fun for everyone, regardless of skill level.MincMincMinc wrote: »So if the matchmaking search had to expand enough it would still put players of vastly different skill levels in the same matches, right?
Yes, (...) Even if the population of bgs collapsed to say 30 people, the MMR system would still function, but in these more niche scenarios you would then start leaning on other mechanics to prevent issues.
Here's how I'd fix Domination and Crazy King:Even in the worst case scenario (two teams fight while the third flips all remaining flags uncontested), it would be impossible to end any of these matches in less than 10 minutes.
- Reduce the amount of points each flag gives per tick. Domination from 8 to 4, Crazy King from 8 to 6.
- Modify flags to require a minimum of two players to be fully captured. Solo players would still be able to hinder the opponents' progress by turning them white, but running around without even drawing weapons would no longer be the ultimate winning strategy.
@MincMincMinc Do you see any problem with these changes?
No that makes sense. Really its more like zos just needs to tune the games to be a standard duration. No matter the game mode you shouldnt be able to end it objectively in 2 mins, when other games are 15mins full duration.
Things like chaos ball being held at spawn, why not make it only held in a designated area so they are more prone to actually fighting over it?
3 team CTF is probably the hardest to deal with. Nothing to stop the third team from running 5 flags uncontested within a minute if they really wanted to. Youd probably have to require them to capture both enemy flags in order to gain points. CTF is really more of a two sided gamemode.
Crazy king also shouldn't be spamming uncontested flags all over the place, incentivizing people to not pvp
MincMincMinc wrote: »Ok so assuming that mixing high and low MMR players is inevitable, we need to find ways to make the three-sided objective modes fun for everyone, regardless of skill level.MincMincMinc wrote: »So if the matchmaking search had to expand enough it would still put players of vastly different skill levels in the same matches, right?
Yes, (...) Even if the population of bgs collapsed to say 30 people, the MMR system would still function, but in these more niche scenarios you would then start leaning on other mechanics to prevent issues.
Here's how I'd fix Domination and Crazy King:Even in the worst case scenario (two teams fight while the third flips all remaining flags uncontested), it would be impossible to end any of these matches in less than 10 minutes.
- Reduce the amount of points each flag gives per tick. Domination from 8 to 4, Crazy King from 8 to 6.
- Modify flags to require a minimum of two players to be fully captured. Solo players would still be able to hinder the opponents' progress by turning them white, but running around without even drawing weapons would no longer be the ultimate winning strategy.
@MincMincMinc Do you see any problem with these changes?
No that makes sense. Really its more like zos just needs to tune the games to be a standard duration. No matter the game mode you shouldnt be able to end it objectively in 2 mins, when other games are 15mins full duration.
Things like chaos ball being held at spawn, why not make it only held in a designated area so they are more prone to actually fighting over it?
3 team CTF is probably the hardest to deal with. Nothing to stop the third team from running 5 flags uncontested within a minute if they really wanted to. Youd probably have to require them to capture both enemy flags in order to gain points. CTF is really more of a two sided gamemode.
Crazy king also shouldn't be spamming uncontested flags all over the place, incentivizing people to not pvp
Two objective modes down, two to go. I'm leaving CTF for last, but there is a plan for that too.
Chaosball
PROBLEMSSOLUTIONS
- Ball carrier could move around the map at high speed. Would be all but impossible to catch.
- Players could take the ball to cheesy places where they couldn't be damaged OR where you had to give up your life to damage them.
- Reduce ball carrier speed by 30%
- Fix cheesy places.
Anything missing?
MincMincMinc wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Ok so assuming that mixing high and low MMR players is inevitable, we need to find ways to make the three-sided objective modes fun for everyone, regardless of skill level.MincMincMinc wrote: »So if the matchmaking search had to expand enough it would still put players of vastly different skill levels in the same matches, right?
Yes, (...) Even if the population of bgs collapsed to say 30 people, the MMR system would still function, but in these more niche scenarios you would then start leaning on other mechanics to prevent issues.
Here's how I'd fix Domination and Crazy King:Even in the worst case scenario (two teams fight while the third flips all remaining flags uncontested), it would be impossible to end any of these matches in less than 10 minutes.
- Reduce the amount of points each flag gives per tick. Domination from 8 to 4, Crazy King from 8 to 6.
- Modify flags to require a minimum of two players to be fully captured. Solo players would still be able to hinder the opponents' progress by turning them white, but running around without even drawing weapons would no longer be the ultimate winning strategy.
@MincMincMinc Do you see any problem with these changes?
No that makes sense. Really its more like zos just needs to tune the games to be a standard duration. No matter the game mode you shouldnt be able to end it objectively in 2 mins, when other games are 15mins full duration.
Things like chaos ball being held at spawn, why not make it only held in a designated area so they are more prone to actually fighting over it?
3 team CTF is probably the hardest to deal with. Nothing to stop the third team from running 5 flags uncontested within a minute if they really wanted to. Youd probably have to require them to capture both enemy flags in order to gain points. CTF is really more of a two sided gamemode.
Crazy king also shouldn't be spamming uncontested flags all over the place, incentivizing people to not pvp
Two objective modes down, two to go. I'm leaving CTF for last, but there is a plan for that too.
Chaosball
PROBLEMSSOLUTIONS
- Ball carrier could move around the map at high speed. Would be all but impossible to catch.
- Players could take the ball to cheesy places where they couldn't be damaged OR where you had to give up your life to damage them.
- Reduce ball carrier speed by 30%
- Fix cheesy places.
Anything missing?
To fix cheesy places I think you are better off suggesting to make a delivery location or a general location on the map to hold the chaos ball to get points.
Being able to hold the ball under your own spawn is an issue and leads to players just standing around instead of actually fighting.
MincMincMinc wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Ok so assuming that mixing high and low MMR players is inevitable, we need to find ways to make the three-sided objective modes fun for everyone, regardless of skill level.MincMincMinc wrote: »So if the matchmaking search had to expand enough it would still put players of vastly different skill levels in the same matches, right?
Yes, (...) Even if the population of bgs collapsed to say 30 people, the MMR system would still function, but in these more niche scenarios you would then start leaning on other mechanics to prevent issues.
Here's how I'd fix Domination and Crazy King:Even in the worst case scenario (two teams fight while the third flips all remaining flags uncontested), it would be impossible to end any of these matches in less than 10 minutes.
- Reduce the amount of points each flag gives per tick. Domination from 8 to 4, Crazy King from 8 to 6.
- Modify flags to require a minimum of two players to be fully captured. Solo players would still be able to hinder the opponents' progress by turning them white, but running around without even drawing weapons would no longer be the ultimate winning strategy.
@MincMincMinc Do you see any problem with these changes?
No that makes sense. Really its more like zos just needs to tune the games to be a standard duration. No matter the game mode you shouldnt be able to end it objectively in 2 mins, when other games are 15mins full duration.
Things like chaos ball being held at spawn, why not make it only held in a designated area so they are more prone to actually fighting over it?
3 team CTF is probably the hardest to deal with. Nothing to stop the third team from running 5 flags uncontested within a minute if they really wanted to. Youd probably have to require them to capture both enemy flags in order to gain points. CTF is really more of a two sided gamemode.
Crazy king also shouldn't be spamming uncontested flags all over the place, incentivizing people to not pvp
Two objective modes down, two to go. I'm leaving CTF for last, but there is a plan for that too.
Chaosball
PROBLEMSSOLUTIONS
- Ball carrier could move around the map at high speed. Would be all but impossible to catch.
- Players could take the ball to cheesy places where they couldn't be damaged OR where you had to give up your life to damage them.
- Reduce ball carrier speed by 30%
- Fix cheesy places.
Anything missing?
To fix cheesy places I think you are better off suggesting to make a delivery location or a general location on the map to hold the chaos ball to get points.
Being able to hold the ball under your own spawn is an issue and leads to players just standing around instead of actually fighting.
Wouldn't it be better for the ball carrier to move slowly around the map instead of staying still? Haki mentioned something similar earlier. By moving away in a 3-sided fight he could force the other two teams into the same space, where they would be vulnerable to ult dumps AND to each other.
MincMincMinc wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Ok so assuming that mixing high and low MMR players is inevitable, we need to find ways to make the three-sided objective modes fun for everyone, regardless of skill level.MincMincMinc wrote: »So if the matchmaking search had to expand enough it would still put players of vastly different skill levels in the same matches, right?
Yes, (...) Even if the population of bgs collapsed to say 30 people, the MMR system would still function, but in these more niche scenarios you would then start leaning on other mechanics to prevent issues.
Here's how I'd fix Domination and Crazy King:Even in the worst case scenario (two teams fight while the third flips all remaining flags uncontested), it would be impossible to end any of these matches in less than 10 minutes.
- Reduce the amount of points each flag gives per tick. Domination from 8 to 4, Crazy King from 8 to 6.
- Modify flags to require a minimum of two players to be fully captured. Solo players would still be able to hinder the opponents' progress by turning them white, but running around without even drawing weapons would no longer be the ultimate winning strategy.
@MincMincMinc Do you see any problem with these changes?
No that makes sense. Really its more like zos just needs to tune the games to be a standard duration. No matter the game mode you shouldnt be able to end it objectively in 2 mins, when other games are 15mins full duration.
Things like chaos ball being held at spawn, why not make it only held in a designated area so they are more prone to actually fighting over it?
3 team CTF is probably the hardest to deal with. Nothing to stop the third team from running 5 flags uncontested within a minute if they really wanted to. Youd probably have to require them to capture both enemy flags in order to gain points. CTF is really more of a two sided gamemode.
Crazy king also shouldn't be spamming uncontested flags all over the place, incentivizing people to not pvp
Two objective modes down, two to go. I'm leaving CTF for last, but there is a plan for that too.
Chaosball
PROBLEMSSOLUTIONS
- Ball carrier could move around the map at high speed. Would be all but impossible to catch.
- Players could take the ball to cheesy places where they couldn't be damaged OR where you had to give up your life to damage them.
- Reduce ball carrier speed by 30%
- Fix cheesy places.
Anything missing?
To fix cheesy places I think you are better off suggesting to make a delivery location or a general location on the map to hold the chaos ball to get points.
Being able to hold the ball under your own spawn is an issue and leads to players just standing around instead of actually fighting.
Wouldn't it be better for the ball carrier to move slowly around the map instead of staying still? Haki mentioned something similar earlier. By moving away in a 3-sided fight he could force the other two teams into the same space, where they would be vulnerable to ult dumps AND to each other.
Well the movement speed reduction is fine. Honestly if they saw they should prevent streak.....they should prevent any movement bonuses like major/minor or any other speed buff from the base movement speed. Then you wouldn't need the fake snare.
But what im suggesting is to prevent players from just holding under their own spawn in a heavily advantageous position. Make them have to hold the chaos ball in the center of the map where it can be contested. Or make checkpoints you have to walk through to obtain points with the ball, so you literally can't cheese certain corners or ledges for points.
If you haven't already done so please check this thread out, ZoS Kevin took the time to answer some questions about recent Battleground changes and responded to a few players questions as well.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682460/what-is-the-point-of-having-patch-notes-if-massive-changes-go-undocumented#latest