That's a good point to look into, and I think the 10 limit is going to be a mess in both PVE and PVP.
Take a commonly proposed subclass build of necro, sorc, warden.
To start with, you can have 6 pets immediately (twilight, scamp, skeletal mage, blast bones, netch, bear). That leaves room for 4 corpses. Which is probably manageable, but in large fights in PVP, that limit is going to be hit really quickly. And how does it work if you are using Animate Blastbones ultimate, will it even generate blastbones?
In PVE, I think the 10 limit is going to be even worse though. 6 pets to start with. But, if you are In IA, you get the watcher permanent pet, and you can get the other permanent pet through visions. So 8 pets. But, you can also get temporary pets through verses as well. So 9 pets potentially, before you even count corpses. Does the companion count as a pet against the cap? If so, you are at cap and haven't even generated a corpse yet.
And in those examples, I am only looking at it from a 1 bar perspective and somewhat longer lasting pets, but you could go even further with 2 bars or more temporary pets with set procs. 10 just seems incredibly limiting for the potential of these builds and for the viability of some of these skill mechanics.
You wouldn't be able to use Animate Blastbones in that scenario because that would require an additional skill line. Afaik the 10 limit for PvE was always a thing, it's just that ZOS apparently never mentioned it until players started encountering issues with Blastbones failing to cast due to recent changes allowing you to generate more corpses than before(Necro Class script, reworked Grave Grasp, etc), some players also encountered this issue in IA with the ''Lich Avatar'' transformation because of the extra summons.
I doubt that the ''pet'' limit will ever go above 10 though, so I guess that players will have to test for themselves if other stuff like Maw/Engine Guardian/Morkuldin/etc are part of it and what are they going to sacrifice so that the extra pets aren't wasted. Like you said, beside skills they also have to factor in Companions and potential extra pets like the IA Watcher/Lich Avatar, procs from sets, etc.
ZOS should seriously rework the Corpse system to something similar to Crux so that Necros aren't operating at a disadvantage in this obviously not well thought out new system.
That's a good point to look into, and I think the 10 limit is going to be a mess in both PVE and PVP.
Take a commonly proposed subclass build of necro, sorc, warden.
To start with, you can have 6 pets immediately (twilight, scamp, skeletal mage, blast bones, netch, bear). That leaves room for 4 corpses. Which is probably manageable, but in large fights in PVP, that limit is going to be hit really quickly. And how does it work if you are using Animate Blastbones ultimate, will it even generate blastbones?
In PVE, I think the 10 limit is going to be even worse though. 6 pets to start with. But, if you are In IA, you get the watcher permanent pet, and you can get the other permanent pet through visions. So 8 pets. But, you can also get temporary pets through verses as well. So 9 pets potentially, before you even count corpses. Does the companion count as a pet against the cap? If so, you are at cap and haven't even generated a corpse yet.
And in those examples, I am only looking at it from a 1 bar perspective and somewhat longer lasting pets, but you could go even further with 2 bars or more temporary pets with set procs. 10 just seems incredibly limiting for the potential of these builds and for the viability of some of these skill mechanics.
You wouldn't be able to use Animate Blastbones in that scenario because that would require an additional skill line. Afaik the 10 limit for PvE was always a thing, it's just that ZOS apparently never mentioned it until players started encountering issues with Blastbones failing to cast due to recent changes allowing you to generate more corpses than before(Necro Class script, reworked Grave Grasp, etc), some players also encountered this issue in IA with the ''Lich Avatar'' transformation because of the extra summons.
I doubt that the ''pet'' limit will ever go above 10 though, so I guess that players will have to test for themselves if other stuff like Maw/Engine Guardian/Morkuldin/etc are part of it and what are they going to sacrifice so that the extra pets aren't wasted. Like you said, beside skills they also have to factor in Companions and potential extra pets like the IA Watcher/Lich Avatar, procs from sets, etc.
ZOS should seriously rework the Corpse system to something similar to Crux so that Necros aren't operating at a disadvantage in this obviously not well thought out new system.
It was always buggy to begin with before the patch 100%, but it's miles worse now.
I have no idea what they done, but before update maybe 1 out of ever 20 failed to cast (for me at least), now 1 out of every 3 fails to cast (and back to back to back fail to cast, not just one time oops it didn't fire). I would love to test sets and setups and such on dummy, but I just can't reliably test anything, because I'm not testing sets/setups, I'm testing if the parse will have the stars aligned and BB would function or not.
Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »so did that hotfix ever happen?
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We can confirm that there's currently a bug that allows the animation of Blastbones to play when at the pet cap (detailed in the patch notes), even though the pet will correctly be prevented from spawning. This should be fixed in Update 47.
YandereGirlfriend wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We can confirm that there's currently a bug that allows the animation of Blastbones to play when at the pet cap (detailed in the patch notes), even though the pet will correctly be prevented from spawning. This should be fixed in Update 47.
The bigger issue is that the whole corpse/summon cap is misguided and is a very invasive and class-specific punishment that is not comparable to anything that other classes have ever had to deal with in the entire history of the game.
If the issue is performance then perhaps the entire corpse mechanic needs to be reconsidered. I think that most Necros would welcome that at this point.
Also, lumping summons and corpses into the same bucket is simply bizarre. It also is completely out of a player's control as to how many corpses are present in any given scenario, especially so in PvP when enemies are dying all around you all of the time. So being punished for things that you did not even contribute to is, again, bizarre and unfun and far beyond anything that other classes ever have to deal or put up with.
The suggestion to implement Blastbones (and perhaps more) summons with basically cloned Mad Tinkerer logic has been brought up several times as well.
randconfig wrote: »I just tested using only Necromancer class ability summons (Spirit Guardian, Skeletal Mage, Blastbones, and use Animate Blastbones ultimate to summon 3 more Blastbones) in PVE (where the pet limit cap is supposed to be 10), while using Flame Skull/Ricochet Skull and still am getting the "Failed to summon combat pet: Capacity reached.":
This should not be intended in PVE or PVP, as I'm literally just using my Necromancer class abilities as designed, but if it is, can devs talk to us Necromancer mains about what's going on with our class and if we may see a fix before U47 goes live?
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »A bug reported early on in the PTS cycle persisted to the live patch, and we still aren't even sure if the dev team is aware of it.
Tested this morning in IC, Blastbones was failing to cast over 50% of the time, and Animate Blastbones simply does nothing - consumes three corpses, but 0 blastbones are spawned. Blastbones would work the first 2 or 3 casts of the fight, then fail for the next two or 3. Rinse and repeat.
If the PTS isn't used to fix bugs like this before live, even when those bugs are reported through official channels early on in the cycle, what exactly is PTS used for? Clearly its not used to ensure a class' core ability functions.
DanteTheDeviant wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »A bug reported early on in the PTS cycle persisted to the live patch, and we still aren't even sure if the dev team is aware of it.
Tested this morning in IC, Blastbones was failing to cast over 50% of the time, and Animate Blastbones simply does nothing - consumes three corpses, but 0 blastbones are spawned. Blastbones would work the first 2 or 3 casts of the fight, then fail for the next two or 3. Rinse and repeat.
If the PTS isn't used to fix bugs like this before live, even when those bugs are reported through official channels early on in the cycle, what exactly is PTS used for? Clearly its not used to ensure a class' core ability functions.
Has there been no update on this, or did I miss it? Looks like the issue persists in live and on the current U47 PTS.
ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »According to the notes, Pets should be replacing corpses no matter what - yet blastbones is not casting if there are too many corpses on the ground even with only 2 pets.
This is something we're aware of and looking into. The way this works is fairly complex, and any changes require both a code and data change, plus ample testing. It is going to take time to scope out and complete this work.
DanteTheDeviant wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »A bug reported early on in the PTS cycle persisted to the live patch, and we still aren't even sure if the dev team is aware of it.
Tested this morning in IC, Blastbones was failing to cast over 50% of the time, and Animate Blastbones simply does nothing - consumes three corpses, but 0 blastbones are spawned. Blastbones would work the first 2 or 3 casts of the fight, then fail for the next two or 3. Rinse and repeat.
If the PTS isn't used to fix bugs like this before live, even when those bugs are reported through official channels early on in the cycle, what exactly is PTS used for? Clearly its not used to ensure a class' core ability functions.
Has there been no update on this, or did I miss it? Looks like the issue persists in live and on the current U47 PTS.
I missed the very beginning of subclasses and didn't see this issue. However, BB is currently functioning properly. In the past month, I haven't noticed this problem in the vast majority of PvP engagements on BG. However, I only have BB as my pet, and I don't have many corpses.
randconfig wrote: »DanteTheDeviant wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »A bug reported early on in the PTS cycle persisted to the live patch, and we still aren't even sure if the dev team is aware of it.
Tested this morning in IC, Blastbones was failing to cast over 50% of the time, and Animate Blastbones simply does nothing - consumes three corpses, but 0 blastbones are spawned. Blastbones would work the first 2 or 3 casts of the fight, then fail for the next two or 3. Rinse and repeat.
If the PTS isn't used to fix bugs like this before live, even when those bugs are reported through official channels early on in the cycle, what exactly is PTS used for? Clearly its not used to ensure a class' core ability functions.
Has there been no update on this, or did I miss it? Looks like the issue persists in live and on the current U47 PTS.
I missed the very beginning of subclasses and didn't see this issue. However, BB is currently functioning properly. In the past month, I haven't noticed this problem in the vast majority of PvP engagements on BG. However, I only have BB as my pet, and I don't have many corpses.
BB generally works if you're not around a bunch of corpses/using only it as a summon, but when you use your full Necromancer abilities as the class was designed, BB or one of your summons, or even your ultimate summons, will fail to spawn and show the error text in the top right of the screen.
It's especially annoying in PVP, and the devs said the pet limit for PVP would be 5, but that means Necromancer fundamentally cannot use Animate Blastbones with their other summons because it would be 6 summons in total. Therefore, even after the bug(s) is fixed, the PVP pet limit needs to be raised to a minimum of 6 for the Necromancer class to fully function as intended (and as was advertised to all the people who purchased it).
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »randconfig wrote: »DanteTheDeviant wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »A bug reported early on in the PTS cycle persisted to the live patch, and we still aren't even sure if the dev team is aware of it.
Tested this morning in IC, Blastbones was failing to cast over 50% of the time, and Animate Blastbones simply does nothing - consumes three corpses, but 0 blastbones are spawned. Blastbones would work the first 2 or 3 casts of the fight, then fail for the next two or 3. Rinse and repeat.
If the PTS isn't used to fix bugs like this before live, even when those bugs are reported through official channels early on in the cycle, what exactly is PTS used for? Clearly its not used to ensure a class' core ability functions.
Has there been no update on this, or did I miss it? Looks like the issue persists in live and on the current U47 PTS.
I missed the very beginning of subclasses and didn't see this issue. However, BB is currently functioning properly. In the past month, I haven't noticed this problem in the vast majority of PvP engagements on BG. However, I only have BB as my pet, and I don't have many corpses.
BB generally works if you're not around a bunch of corpses/using only it as a summon, but when you use your full Necromancer abilities as the class was designed, BB or one of your summons, or even your ultimate summons, will fail to spawn and show the error text in the top right of the screen.
It's especially annoying in PVP, and the devs said the pet limit for PVP would be 5, but that means Necromancer fundamentally cannot use Animate Blastbones with their other summons because it would be 6 summons in total. Therefore, even after the bug(s) is fixed, the PVP pet limit needs to be raised to a minimum of 6 for the Necromancer class to fully function as intended (and as was advertised to all the people who purchased it).
The limit was raised to 10 shortly after last patch dropped. The issue still seems to persist both in PvP and PvE because it seems that something with how corpses are replaced is not functioning correctly.
as a necromancer who plays this class to the limit with all the problems, I can only advise you to give up a lot of corpses and summons.
First of all, the necromancer's skull is a bad skill. Yes, the animation is cool, but the skill completely loses to everything, including scribing. So just take the spam from scribing, it's much better, and remove the bone tyrant if you're not playing through Goliath. DD and Healing line are very good for necromancers right now, and it's better to replace the bone tyrant with the DD line of a class that interests you. NB, Temp, warden, DK, arc. all it be more profit and fix all problem.
i play now on DD and Healing line from necro and Bone Tyrant i change on templar aedra line, and all work and work good.
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »as a necromancer who plays this class to the limit with all the problems, I can only advise you to give up a lot of corpses and summons.
First of all, the necromancer's skull is a bad skill. Yes, the animation is cool, but the skill completely loses to everything, including scribing. So just take the spam from scribing, it's much better, and remove the bone tyrant if you're not playing through Goliath. DD and Healing line are very good for necromancers right now, and it's better to replace the bone tyrant with the DD line of a class that interests you. NB, Temp, warden, DK, arc. all it be more profit and fix all problem.
i play now on DD and Healing line from necro and Bone Tyrant i change on templar aedra line, and all work and work good.
Skull is a great spammable in melee range. No, it doesn't get beaten by scribe spammables unless you're a sorc baseclass with the class script.
Skull deals 90% of a Blastbones tooltip on the third cast - that's more than any other spammable skill besides a fully buffed Vamp Slap. If you're playing a straight necro (which OP is in this case) or if you're running Intensive Mender (phenomenal skill post buff), it's going to get the 50% buff nearly every cast.
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »as a necromancer who plays this class to the limit with all the problems, I can only advise you to give up a lot of corpses and summons.
First of all, the necromancer's skull is a bad skill. Yes, the animation is cool, but the skill completely loses to everything, including scribing. So just take the spam from scribing, it's much better, and remove the bone tyrant if you're not playing through Goliath. DD and Healing line are very good for necromancers right now, and it's better to replace the bone tyrant with the DD line of a class that interests you. NB, Temp, warden, DK, arc. all it be more profit and fix all problem.
i play now on DD and Healing line from necro and Bone Tyrant i change on templar aedra line, and all work and work good.
Skull is a great spammable in melee range. No, it doesn't get beaten by scribe spammables unless you're a sorc baseclass with the class script.
Skull deals 90% of a Blastbones tooltip on the third cast - that's more than any other spammable skill besides a fully buffed Vamp Slap. If you're playing a straight necro (which OP is in this case) or if you're running Intensive Mender (phenomenal skill post buff), it's going to get the 50% buff nearly every cast.
MincMincMinc wrote: »I'm still baffled they decided to introduce a corpse and pet system into a game that couldnt handle the amount of entities already on the server. I mean even before necro people were worried that petsorc was going to be removed because of the unnecessary amount of load it placed on the server.
Did we really think necro corpse system was a good idea? I'm surprised they didnt delete the corpse system and make it work like the crux system. At this point why not make more simple systems since players will inevitably have to rely on addons to make any of these work?
randconfig wrote: »
As I tested and reported on U47 PTS for weeks, Necromancer summons are still bugged despite this "fix", and there has been no communication from ZOS/dev team to indicate they're still working on the issue. So I'm once again posting an update here to let everyone know the issue persists now in U47 live.
I guess that means Necromancer class will remain bugged until the summer next year... Is anyone else frustrated by this, or am I the only one that cares?
Even worse now. One skeletal archer in overworld, cannot cast blastbones. One enemy in front, no other enemy dead or alive close by. If this is meant to be a joke, noone is laughing.
When I thought it can't get any worse, it just gets worse
ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »Hey gang! Later today, we'll be pushing a hotfix to raise the pet cap from five to ten in PvP zones.
We’d also like give a little more context about why we made this change and why it remained as it was on the PTS. We originally reduced the pet cap to five for performance reasons because we saw that internally, even with only a few pets, if ALL players had pets there were performance issues. This was mostly going to be an Imperial City and Cyrodiil issue (due to the sheer amount of "pets" you could have with all the dead targets being generated). We do have the capability to put a cap in both PVP and PVE zones if performance dips below an acceptable amount for both the client or the server. With this change we are making both capped at 10, and will monitor perf along with the usage of pets. Having the cap set to two didn’t feel good, so we raised it to five for PTS and now launch.
We have seen your feedback about the five-pet cap, and have been weighing it against the very real game performance risk the higher we raise it. The other piece of this is that PTS is not the live servers, and we needed to see how things looked on the latter. Five pets may look fine performance-wise on the PTS, where we always see a lower population (especially in PvP content), then look different on the live servers.
So, we are raising the pet cap to ten later today via a hotfix and will monitor how things look. If we see significant game performance issues (severe frame rate drops, client crashes, etc.) we will need to drop the cap back down to five.
We hope that helps give a little extra context and we'll let you know when the hotfix has been rolled out. Thank you!