tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like one of the main reasons that people are not taking this seriously is the comparisons and reasonings that are being given. You say "We want frost to be viable for DPS like fire is," and then make all of your comparisons to the current meta. You do realize that the meta isn't a pure fire mage, right? That green beam is not a DK skill, nor does it do flame damage. Heck, you can even recolor the current meta to look like an ice beam, not a fire beam.

Essentially, you're saying "I want my [themed build] to be as strong or stronger than [the meta]" instead of "I want my [themed build] to be as strong or stronger than [similar themed builds]."

We absolutely should compare parses... but not "dual frost staff/Frostbite/etc." to "Arcbladeplar." That should be compared to a pure DK with dual inferno staves and BSW/Encratis. And yes, I'm positive that frost is still going to not match up... but it'll be a lot closer of a matchup than the meta build, because a pure fire mage is also not at all the meta.

Yes, there are things they could do to frost as well, that would also not take away from tanking (since frost - even in Skyrim - did live in a CC area more than a DoT area like fire). I think it'd be interesting to add an Engulfing-style frost-damage-taken debuff to Impaling Shards, or maybe modify the Brittle debuff to also take more damage from frost. Yes, there should be a specific Monster Helm set for each damage type and not just fire. And for the love of Kyne please give Arctic Blast its heal-on-demand back (Polar is the problematic morph in PvP, not Blast).

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like one of the main reasons that people are not taking this seriously is the comparisons and reasonings that are being given. You say "We want frost to be viable for DPS like fire is," and then make all of your comparisons to the current meta. You do realize that the meta isn't a pure fire mage, right? That green beam is not a DK skill, nor does it do flame damage. Heck, you can even recolor the current meta to look like an ice beam, not a fire beam.

Essentially, you're saying "I want my [themed build] to be as strong or stronger than [the meta]" instead of "I want my [themed build] to be as strong or stronger than [similar themed builds]."

We absolutely should compare parses... but not "dual frost staff/Frostbite/etc." to "Arcbladeplar." That should be compared to a pure DK with dual inferno staves and BSW/Encratis. And yes, I'm positive that frost is still going to not match up... but it'll be a lot closer of a matchup than the meta build, because a pure fire mage is also not at all the meta.

Yes, there are things they could do to frost as well, that would also not take away from tanking (since frost - even in Skyrim - did live in a CC area more than a DoT area like fire). I think it'd be interesting to add an Engulfing-style frost-damage-taken debuff to Impaling Shards, or maybe modify the Brittle debuff to also take more damage from frost. Yes, there should be a specific Monster Helm set for each damage type and not just fire. And for the love of Kyne please give Arctic Blast its heal-on-demand back (Polar is the problematic morph in PvP, not Blast).

I agree with you on a lot of this. But i think that theres a lot that should be done in addition to something like this mythic existing, (see one of my many other posts). But where i differ is that I think that theme builds should be able to be similar to meta builds in terms of not just dps but also skill and rotation complexity, and should even have their shot at being the meta. As far as this mythic goes. It's just 1 small part of that and could even become a tuning knob for such a build later down the line. Its an ambitious goal given that I'm not a developer, but we're always inching closer to it.

Don't get me wrong - I hate the idea of a "one meta to rule them all." U46 and Subclassing were a massive step backwards in making a handful of meta builds be reduced down to one single build, all in the name of giving people more freedom.

In a perfect world, all of these builds would be equally viable - even ones that are more support-based would have their place. But as it stands, we're in a world where raid leads just shove everything they can onto the supports because who cares what they want to play, and that means that the DPS are expected to run only the highest damage things and nothing else.

CP5 wrote: »

With that said, you probably don't want a mythic doing the leg work. Look at Deadric Prey. A third of deadra pet's damage is locked behind that thing, making those skills significantly weaker unless you use it. An item like this would be a bandaid rather than a solution, as frost skills would have to be balanced accordingly. 50% bonus damage on Comet or Frozen Colossus is a lot of damage. Other frost skills aren't exactly far behind other elements, and with the winters embrace buffs to the chilled status effects their dots (artic blast and winters revenge) actually have decent chances of doing upwards of double damage just because of the chilled proc. If ZOS gave a mythic like this, it'd be quickly followed by nerfs to skills to account for the power given by the item.

One of the reasons why I personally feel that the Winters Embrace skill line is so well-balanced at the moment is that it gives the tools to do something interesting. The flat buff to the chilled status effects damage, plus the heightened chance of procing it, comes together to enable a build around triggering that status effect as often as possible, a build type I wish my lightning sorc could pull off half as well. Leaning into that, enabling builds to pick a niche to capitalize on, is a healthier way to go I feel, rather than having a mallet in the corner that'd need to be rebalanced all the time that would be a hard requirement for anyone looking to run that play style.

CP5 wrote: »

It's not shooting it down, it's warning that you're building a house on a one legged table. You can't have a mythic be responsible for so much of your builds power and expect other aspects of your character to not be impacted. Actually sitting down, going 'this thing wants X to work best' and providing players the ability to do build around X is a way to promote build diversity, rather than 'this mythic makes your frost skills super good for a not really noticeable hit to a damage type you may not be using.'

For example, I love Soulstone Suriviors. In it status effects can stack, and you have some special kind of skills. For ice builds, your status effects are slow and paralyze, and some ice skills deal damage based on the number of stacks of those debuffs on enemies. You build into stacking as many of those debuffs as possible and use a single payoff skill to cash in all those debuffs as damage? Voila, a strong build that can go far. Other debuffs like burning and poisoned deal damage, and not only are there skills that deal damage based off the number of stacks, but some skills clear all instances of the debuff and deal a % of their potential damage instantly, like, 300%, or more. Those kind of abilities allow players to go all in on a single elemental type and status effect and make powerful builds, not just the builds that cast their skills 40+ times a second.

Translating that into ESO, imagine this. A scribed skill, and say for the frost skill, "You apply a frost rune to the enemy, any time they get chilled they release a frost explosion, up to once a second, once it detonates X times it detonates one last time, dealing damage based on the number of nearby chilled enemies." Something like that would be thematic, give ice a unique identity, wanting to chill large crowds, and would encourage that kind of focused "I want to do X on this build to reach my payoff." That same skill when set up with fire could instead "Up to once a second consume the burning status effect on the target, refreshing this skills duration and applying Intense Burns, stacks up to 5 times," and voila, fire gets a strong single target dot so long as they keep applying burn to their target. That kind of thematic payoff would get me personally more interested in engaging with these kind of builds rather than a blanket "just make number bigger" one, and if they do that and turn up the dial you could easily still be left with builds that don't actually feel any different.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

it seems from the discussion here people only really care if a skill 'looks' icy.

So basically if ZOS just add some skill style to make arc beam 'frosty' then it becomes a frost skill?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

it seems from the discussion here people only really care if a skill 'looks' icy.

So basically if ZOS just add some skill style to make arc beam 'frosty' then it becomes a frost skill?

both matter, frost damage applying chilled is really important for the identity of a frost damage build. can't do that with stampede

Just use a frost mount then it's a frost ability based on the comments here about the snow warden bear.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

it seems from the discussion here people only really care if a skill 'looks' icy.

So basically if ZOS just add some skill style to make arc beam 'frosty' then it becomes a frost skill?

both matter, frost damage applying chilled is really important for the identity of a frost damage build. can't do that with stampede

Just use a frost mount then it's a frost ability based on the comments here about the snow warden bear.

? that's not the ability i'm talking about. stampede is the two handed charge ability that drops the ground aoe dot. the frosty appearance for it released a month or 2 ago at this point. and it still does physical damage. i mean, it looks great. but it's not applying chilled.

my bad a lot of charge themed abilities. So for you it matters the damage type of the ability but for other's it does just as long as it looks frosty. Perhaps instead of a neck you should just request a mythic ice staff. This could be a stronger mythic because it occupies 2 set bonus slots instead of 1.

CP5 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

It's not shooting it down, it's warning that you're building a house on a one legged table. You can't have a mythic be responsible for so much of your builds power and expect other aspects of your character to not be impacted. Actually sitting down, going 'this thing wants X to work best' and providing players the ability to do build around X is a way to promote build diversity, rather than 'this mythic makes your frost skills super good for a not really noticeable hit to a damage type you may not be using.'

For example, I love Soulstone Suriviors. In it status effects can stack, and you have some special kind of skills. For ice builds, your status effects are slow and paralyze, and some ice skills deal damage based on the number of stacks of those debuffs on enemies. You build into stacking as many of those debuffs as possible and use a single payoff skill to cash in all those debuffs as damage? Voila, a strong build that can go far. Other debuffs like burning and poisoned deal damage, and not only are there skills that deal damage based off the number of stacks, but some skills clear all instances of the debuff and deal a % of their potential damage instantly, like, 300%, or more. Those kind of abilities allow players to go all in on a single elemental type and status effect and make powerful builds, not just the builds that cast their skills 40+ times a second.

Translating that into ESO, imagine this. A scribed skill, and say for the frost skill, "You apply a frost rune to the enemy, any time they get chilled they release a frost explosion, up to once a second, once it detonates X times it detonates one last time, dealing damage based on the number of nearby chilled enemies." Something like that would be thematic, give ice a unique identity, wanting to chill large crowds, and would encourage that kind of focused "I want to do X on this build to reach my payoff." That same skill when set up with fire could instead "Up to once a second consume the burning status effect on the target, refreshing this skills duration and applying Intense Burns, stacks up to 5 times," and voila, fire gets a strong single target dot so long as they keep applying burn to their target. That kind of thematic payoff would get me personally more interested in engaging with these kind of builds rather than a blanket "just make number bigger" one, and if they do that and turn up the dial you could easily still be left with builds that don't actually feel any different.

i have (on multiple occasions previously) suggested a very similar skill suggestion with my rework idea for frozen gate. that's 100% more important than this mythic idea. but this is just 1 of many of the types of things that needs to be done. this mythic isn't the only solution. it just makes up a portion of it.

My problem with some of those suggestions is that they often come off as "I don't like X ability, so lets change it to Y." Like there was a suggestion to retool frost cloak at one point, or remove other key aspects that make frost, frost. If something meaningful is done this mythic shouldn't be needed, at least not as a glorified stat stick (especially since the Soulcleaver set gives a 21% bonus to siphoning skills and reduced skill cost but makes them cost ultimate). If something meaningful is done, which there should be, something that massive shouldn't be needed at all.

If I were ZOS, I'd take every quarter to look at 3 class skill lines and give them a thorough pass, giving many of them substantial buffs, but also looking at what kind of playstyle those skill trees provide and capitalizing on them.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

It's not shooting it down, it's warning that you're building a house on a one legged table. You can't have a mythic be responsible for so much of your builds power and expect other aspects of your character to not be impacted. Actually sitting down, going 'this thing wants X to work best' and providing players the ability to do build around X is a way to promote build diversity, rather than 'this mythic makes your frost skills super good for a not really noticeable hit to a damage type you may not be using.'

For example, I love Soulstone Suriviors. In it status effects can stack, and you have some special kind of skills. For ice builds, your status effects are slow and paralyze, and some ice skills deal damage based on the number of stacks of those debuffs on enemies. You build into stacking as many of those debuffs as possible and use a single payoff skill to cash in all those debuffs as damage? Voila, a strong build that can go far. Other debuffs like burning and poisoned deal damage, and not only are there skills that deal damage based off the number of stacks, but some skills clear all instances of the debuff and deal a % of their potential damage instantly, like, 300%, or more. Those kind of abilities allow players to go all in on a single elemental type and status effect and make powerful builds, not just the builds that cast their skills 40+ times a second.

Translating that into ESO, imagine this. A scribed skill, and say for the frost skill, "You apply a frost rune to the enemy, any time they get chilled they release a frost explosion, up to once a second, once it detonates X times it detonates one last time, dealing damage based on the number of nearby chilled enemies." Something like that would be thematic, give ice a unique identity, wanting to chill large crowds, and would encourage that kind of focused "I want to do X on this build to reach my payoff." That same skill when set up with fire could instead "Up to once a second consume the burning status effect on the target, refreshing this skills duration and applying Intense Burns, stacks up to 5 times," and voila, fire gets a strong single target dot so long as they keep applying burn to their target. That kind of thematic payoff would get me personally more interested in engaging with these kind of builds rather than a blanket "just make number bigger" one, and if they do that and turn up the dial you could easily still be left with builds that don't actually feel any different.

i have (on multiple occasions previously) suggested a very similar skill suggestion with my rework idea for frozen gate. that's 100% more important than this mythic idea. but this is just 1 of many of the types of things that needs to be done. this mythic isn't the only solution. it just makes up a portion of it.

My problem with some of those suggestions is that they often come off as "I don't like X ability, so lets change it to Y." Like there was a suggestion to retool frost cloak at one point, or remove other key aspects that make frost, frost. If something meaningful is done this mythic shouldn't be needed, at least not as a glorified stat stick (especially since the Soulcleaver set gives a 21% bonus to siphoning skills and reduced skill cost but makes them cost ultimate). If something meaningful is done, which there should be, something that massive shouldn't be needed at all.

If I were ZOS, I'd take every quarter to look at 3 class skill lines and give them a thorough pass, giving many of them substantial buffs, but also looking at what kind of playstyle those skill trees provide and capitalizing on them.

I think that re-works of existing skills are noble things to aspire to and that they would objectively be the best outcomes for boosting Frost (and really any other underachieving playstyle) damage.

But I don't think that we're likely to ever live in that world. Combat changes are simply too slow, too limited, and too tangential to the real issues facing the game, I think. So in the meantime, we need to make do with what we have and apply band-aid fixes if need be, such as a stat-stick Mythic.

Look at heavy attacks. They basically obey this same principle with Oakensoul and now Rhakkat (though they also randomly receive like 1/3 of all new sets, which remains weird). The whole playstyle depends upon basically one piece of gear. Not ideal, definitely, but it is what it is and it's certainly better than that playstyle not existing or being viable at all.