I have decided to write down how I am feeling about this:
My account was started at Beta. And sure I did not play for some time as the usual new game bugs drove many of us away for a while. But I have otherwise been here forever, owning 93 of the 114 homes thus far.
I play all the systems, enjoy most of the content. Have completed all but the repeatable Cyrodiil quests in the game. Have gathered all but the bugged books in the game. But the part that plagues me the most is still having not found all the Furnishing plans. And this is exasperated by what the OP has documented above.

It is so disheartening.. and frankly, severely reducing my enjoyment in this game. I understand that sometimes, with a game getting to the age it is, that some systems actually get less convoluted as Devs tend to streamline deep sinks in favor of new other content. But the 'loot pool' in this particular area (antiquities as well as furnishings / plans in general) is getting SO much worse, with nearly zero zone curation and mixing new items with more than 3k other (plans), some of which are almost as old as the game itself. (Homestead was Update 13 and came out in February 2017.)

I have been accused of farming (nodes and plans) a LOT! Some say that I don't get good drops if I farm too much... But I farm this much because I DON'T get drops.. How many Pattern: Rough Bedroll, Basic do you have to get before a new Epic Plan for that release in that new zone will drop? (this is just a silly example and not indicative of the actual loot practice I perform)

But why must this be so painful? Why must it continually get worse? And what else can we (furnishers and decorators, avid and casual alike) say to make our feelings heard, acknowledged and properly assessed and changed as needed?!

👎

Djennku wrote: »

1.3 mil sounds excellent for almost completing everything. I spent 12 mil alone for the West Weald maps during the event, anywhere from 2g to 25k max per map, and well over 100 maps to maxthat out.

This is not almost completed at all. Please read it again: it's barely 1/3 of the codex completed. NOT counting the amount spent on the 1/3 codex completion, which was again a lot less because the 1/3 codex is actually curated.

Besides, it should not cost tens of millions just to *unlock* items that are then not even buyable. It's not excellent, it's ridiculous.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

...Obtaining furnishings for your houses should not be this difficult. It didn’t used to be.

I probably wasn't playing when RNG for those was good. I don't remember Elsweyr, maybe didn't farm back then. Then Necrom was ok, except the treasure maps. But Infinite Archive was terrible! I'm still sick of that place. Why make it so bad?

Solstice RNG is certainly... RNG-ing. The first couple of weeks I had good "luck". Then in the weeks following, very little, like others report. I only check containers casually now. Likewise I expect the structural drops from Sunport dailies will be bad, just like West Weald Dawnwood plans were it's not worth doing when you only get 1 purple per ~250 coffers.

Anyway...

Housing players are always here, rain or shine - regardless of whether there's any event on, or if general population is low. We're still online, making our own fun, building things for weeks!

But when it's too frustrating to get the parts, we'll also log out. Or potentially learn the bad lesson that it's not worth buying new chapters: why get it if the things we're excited about aren't attainable for 1-2 years after? I don't think this is a good thing; I want the game to be successful for years to come!

MoonPile wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

...Obtaining furnishings for your houses should not be this difficult. It didn’t used to be.

I probably wasn't playing when RNG for those was good. I don't remember Elsweyr, maybe didn't farm back then. Then Necrom was ok, except the treasure maps. But Infinite Archive was terrible! I'm still sick of that place. Why make it so bad?

Solstice RNG is certainly... RNG-ing. The first couple of weeks I had good "luck". Then in the weeks following, very little, like others report. I only check containers casually now. Likewise I expect the structural drops from Sunport dailies will be bad, just like West Weald Dawnwood plans were it's not worth doing when you only get 1 purple per ~250 coffers.

Anyway...

Housing players are always here, rain or shine - regardless of whether there's any event on, or if general population is low. We're still online, making our own fun, building things for weeks!

But when it's too frustrating to get the parts, we'll also log out. Or potentially learn the bad lesson that it's not worth buying new chapters: why get it if the things we're excited about aren't attainable for 1-2 years after? I don't think this is a good thing; I want the game to be successful for years to come!

I agree. I would be in the game looking for these if I could get them. Now I am logging out after doing daily crafting writs and playing Oblivion Remastered instead, and having lots of fun instead of mindlessly opening containers for nothing.

I don't own Solstice, but agree that trying to search for West Weald and Apocrypha/Infinite Archive leads have led to a very negative gaming experience so far. Locking an infinitesimal antiquity lead drop RNG behind an infinitesimal treasure map RNG is, no polite way to say this, extremely cynical.

ZOS, please boost all subsequent (after first codex) treasure map antiquity lead drop chances.

And please add missing antiquities to their respective achievement vendors. @ZOS_Kevin, the Ayleid Sculpture, Simple Tree and Ayleid Sculpture, Complex Tree are still missing from the achievement vendor.

xencthlu wrote: »

...I just post them at ridiculous prices for the rubes who think they might be the exception to the rule. (Sorry, Moon, I think very highly of you and appreciate the gold you've sunk into figuring out the system is rigged.)...

Laughed at this, especially "rubes" lmao. Thanks xenchthlu xD

Similar to crates (ugh, sadly) at least I know what I'm getting into with maps! *Actual* spending is less than the TTC averages the calculations are based on. "Never risk more than you can afford to lose" apparently is sound advice in Tamriel too 😩

But you're right and it's partly why I made the post: lots of folks may not know how bad the odds are past 1/3 codex.

I’ve never even gotten a map for Solstice yet but I also won’t buy them. I’ve only gotten maybe three surveys too. I agree the map leads should not be so hard to get. I have had similar rng with other leads in the game but furnishings and furnishing plans shouldn’t need to be so hard to acquire.

MoonPile wrote: »

Main tracking posts:
...👎

OP Tracking Update: (EDITED)

TOTAL Sol maps spent ONLY on 2/3 codex = 52
EMPTY maps = 50
Maps since last lead = 35

lol

Djennku wrote: »

The crocodile skull can also drop from chests. Stop digging it up if you don't want it to be the one lead from your chests.

This actually has no impact on the drop rates of other leads, from the experimental data the community has collected.

MoonPile wrote: »

TOTAL Solstice maps spent ONLY on 2/3 codex to date = 41
EMPTY maps = 39
Maps since last lead: 24

lol

I am truly struggling to understand the intended design goal of this. It's not a gold sink, because buying maps only shuffles gold around the player economy. It's not really a time sink, because digging maps up takes a trivial amount. There are no reliable and desirable rewards from maps. No one needs zone gear. The amount of gold from a chest won't cover a fast travel. The only apparent point of maps, a very rare drop to begin with, is the tiny chance of getting a lead that you then have to use the separate antiquity system to dig up. It's asinine. The only emergent effect from this set up is a bunch of frustrated and bitter decorating-focused players. I'd really like to understand what the design intention is for this set of interlocked systems.

xencthlu wrote: »

I am truly struggling to understand the intended design goal of this. It's not a gold sink, because buying maps only shuffles gold around the player economy. It's not really a time sink, because digging maps up takes a trivial amount. There are no reliable and desirable rewards from maps. No one needs zone gear. The amount of gold from a chest won't cover a fast travel. The only apparent point of maps, a very rare drop to begin with, is the tiny chance of getting a lead that you then have to use the separate antiquity system to dig up. It's asinine. The only emergent effect from this set up is a bunch of frustrated and bitter decorating-focused players. I'd really like to understand what the design intention is for this set of interlocked systems.

Exactly this.

I'd like to add, even if ZOS wanted us to spend the time farming for these maps, we cannot realistically do so. There is no way to farm for maps of a certain zone, since treasure maps are not more likely to drop in their own zone than they are in any other zone. How then does one farm for them?

Furthermore, it's even more egregious that they are placing leads for furnishings that we often need multiples of behind this multi-step RNG.

I mean, yeah I do feel a bit bitter because it is a hopeless situation we are in.

Djennku wrote: »

@xencthlu I never said anything about it affecting drop rates. It is a proven fact that you cannot drop a lead already aquired unless you dig it up (or the whole collection for multi-part antiquities) or have it expire. All leads from a single drop pool, in this case treasure chests, can be target-farmed by not digging up other leads in said loot pool, allowing for eventually aquiring the one(s) you are after.

This is a fact and basic logic, and no, regardless of what anyone screams, there is nothing in game preventing you from getting any available lead except already having it or not the full collection (ie. Mythics) completed.


How often a lead drops is still 100000% up to the game's RNG, and any given playtime we can get lucky or have bad luck, however, the idea is work smarter not harder, and making sure you pick up and hold onto all other available leads until you get the one(s) you are after means you get what you want faster, and that much higher of a chance the next lead is that specific one rather than the wrobg leads over and over and over, etc. when you do get a drop.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that when you dig up a chest first it's determined which lead drops and only then if that lead can even drop for you.

I had a bad farming/RNG experience after trying to hold onto leads and the amount of leads that I got dropped extremely low. By far most people share this experience:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/650929/data-on-leads-from-treasure-maps-dig-up-unwanted-leads-immediately-or-hold

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Djennku wrote: »

@xencthlu I never said anything about it affecting drop rates. It is a proven fact that you cannot drop a lead already aquired unless you dig it up (or the whole collection for multi-part antiquities) or have it expire. All leads from a single drop pool, in this case treasure chests, can be target-farmed by not digging up other leads in said loot pool, allowing for eventually aquiring the one(s) you are after.

This is a fact and basic logic, and no, regardless of what anyone screams, there is nothing in game preventing you from getting any available lead except already having it or not the full collection (ie. Mythics) completed.


How often a lead drops is still 100000% up to the game's RNG, and any given playtime we can get lucky or have bad luck, however, the idea is work smarter not harder, and making sure you pick up and hold onto all other available leads until you get the one(s) you are after means you get what you want faster, and that much higher of a chance the next lead is that specific one rather than the wrobg leads over and over and over, etc. when you do get a drop.

I’m not convinced this works because I have gotten two leads from a single activity before, and more than just once.

This is irrelevant because I never said only one lead can drop at a time, and is not related to the topic.

EDIT: TREASURE CHESTS only get one drop, OTHER lead sources can drop multiple. Again though, getting two drops from a single source unrelated to treasure chests is unrelated to the topic of treasure maps.

@katanagirl1 I'll have to dig up the patch notes. It was from shortly after greymoor launched.

It leaves only the ones you still need, but it doesn't get you them any faster.

If using any single treasure map gives you a 5% chance of getting lead A and a 5% chance of getting lead B, holding onto lead A doesn't mean that you suddenly have a 10% chance of getting lead B.

You still have 5% chance of getting lead B. You're just sure that you're not getting lead A next. When you apply that math to 14 motifs in one area, it just means you are missing out on a lot of motifs to sell or use on alts.

Not once had holding onto leads made the farming faster for me, or most other people in the topic I linked.

For more references regarding the discussion on "holding" leads, we talked about this way back during Necrom as well:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/661680/110-maps-1-apocryphal-well-less-than-1/p1
– there are some replies there that may be of interest.

And another thread just about poor drop rates back in Necrom / Apocrypha (which is the main topic of THIS thread, "Update on Solstice Treasure Map Leads - Drop Data")
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/637463/apocryphal-well-leads-not-dropping/p1

I'm guessing Comment 17 was in reference to an aside I jokingly mentioned and deleted, because it's not really relevant and the mechanism was never in question. That comment seemed to be a misunderstanding / restatement of what I said I was doing. (You do not need to hold drops, nor, in my experience (since < Apocrypha, see above), does it help. The point was only that it's annoying that it's part of the Treasure Map loot table at all, which already has such poor drop rates that we don't need it to be further bogged down by the given zone's "trash" drop. So I do tend to "hold" the trash drop, simply because it's a further frustration to have it pop up.)

So in efforts to keep this thread on-track, I'll paste it again:

OP Tracking Update: August 20th

TOTAL Solstice maps spent ONLY on 2/3 codex = 52
EMPTY (junk) maps = 50
Maps since last lead = 35

Only 2 leads out of 52 maps and counting.
And unbuyable "unlocked" leads are still bugged - see OP.

I'll forego explaining once again why 50 maps full of junk is rubbish; much has been said above already.
I've also reported in-game.

But I will add: Gold Coast Maps are a good example
Gold Coast maps, which via combo of reasonable drop rates + lower demand, can be bought for just a few hundred gold (if that) and are a dependable source of Shrine to Dibella leads. This technically drops from any source in the zone, but maps are such a good way of getting it that I got a 2nd and 3rd unlocked for my alt account just during the free ESO+ week. I still use GC maps on my main occasionally to get a free Dibella Shrine. Evergreen gameplay!

Importantly: it did NOT take 50 maps. Only a few, less than 10 or so.

I'd assume what's going on in Solstice majorly deflated drop rates to keep us in the zone longer. I just don't think that's an effective strategy at all, as already explained above by myself and others. It's frustrating, not fun, not rewarding, and makes us less likely to retain interest or keep trying (beyond the occasional experiment like this one, or the handful of housers who are willing to spend 10s of millions on an unlock).

If we must have this map system that everyone's hated for years, then can this be done:

1. Fix the drop rates to be more like Gold Coast, which is actually reasonable enough to make us want to return and use the system. There's gotta be a happy medium between "nothing desirable inside – not even worth selling" and "nothing desirable inside because the drop rate is so low – not even worth buying".
2. Make ALL 3/3 antiquities buyable, consistent with the gameplay expectations that system set up years ago: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/677582/antiquities-are-missing-from-their-vendors-for-2-3-years

@ZOS_Kevin please