If you aren't using dizzy are you even pvp-ing?

Whew man, 66 ping. I'd take a D-swing to the face to get that!

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Namacc wrote: »

Dizzy gameplay

Dizzy enjoyer approved. +1 for song choice.

Bring back old knockup dizzy

Yes bring back dizzy knockback. Tbh dizzy could use a buff like that.

Surprise attack/ concealed is a better dizzy swing currently. SA/ CW also has off balance and can be block casted. B4b fulfills the high risk, high reward gameplay better than dizzy. B4b does more damage at low HP and can be block casted.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Namacc wrote: »

Dizzy gameplay

Dizzy enjoyer approved. +1 for song choice.

Bring back old knockup dizzy

Old dizzy knock-up should never make a return (in it´s old version that is) and I´m so happy it got removed. It had the same buggy interaction as skills like leap or javelin (especially leap) where you can´t break free until your character lands on the ground. With old dizzy it was essentially a death sentence unless you taped down your block button. The current off-balance interaction with medium weaves are much better and rewards a little bit of "skillful" (whatever that means in ESO terms I guess) gameplay with proper weaving and timing around the off-balance window.

Sure if ZOS change things so you can actually break free at any time after you get stunned (aka mid-air) then sure I wouldn´t mind if they brought it back, but otherwise the biggest of NO.

At the time it was the single greatest loss for me in ESO but now I agree. Javelin is WAY busted right now with Shalks and Surprise Attack on the same toon. We only had maybe 2 years of Warden and Knockback Dizzy co-existing? But I reckon if that had gone on longer we'd have a stronger memory of the knockback's brokenness.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Namacc wrote: »

Dizzy gameplay

Dizzy enjoyer approved. +1 for song choice.

Bring back old knockup dizzy

Old dizzy knock-up should never make a return (in it´s old version that is) and I´m so happy it got removed. It had the same buggy interaction as skills like leap or javelin (especially leap) where you can´t break free until your character lands on the ground. With old dizzy it was essentially a death sentence unless you taped down your block button. The current off-balance interaction with medium weaves are much better and rewards a little bit of "skillful" (whatever that means in ESO terms I guess) gameplay with proper weaving and timing around the off-balance window.

Sure if ZOS change things so you can actually break free at any time after you get stunned (aka mid-air) then sure I wouldn´t mind if they brought it back, but otherwise the biggest of NO.

Well javelin is its own thing with its own issues, it is a different copy and paste issue with knockbacks. The knockup you CAN break free from mid air, but it prevents movement or roll dodging for the time you are mid air. In many cases you could even cast vigor by the time you hit the ground back in the day.

Having a defeatist take isn't great either. Its basically saying that we should remove all knockups, knockbacks, fears, charms and boil everything down to the generic stun code........why not just recode these mechanics correctly for fluidity? It is in fact possible. Adjust the speed of the animations to be quicker based on the break free animation. Make sure that break free can be done at any point in the animation such that skill casting is not ignored after break free is done.

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When it comes to counterplay design the most important thing is understanding and clarity. You should be able to see and understand what is going to happen and what you should do. This goes for both the attacker and defender. ESO is like a fighting game where you want chained decisions happening each gcd.

With old dizzy swing knockup it was extremely clear. Hey this guy is doing a long wind up animation and nothing else >>> i need to dodge or block. Oops I didn't do either I got punished >>>> Ok now I need to cc break and recover. NEWER players also had the learning introduction since PVE matched pvp combat way more since pvp was more active skill oriented, where now it is more proc effect oriented. Even if someone never played PvP, they knew that mobs doing the dizzy animation did a big hit and knockup. Which only added to the overall clarity and learning process.

Offbalance breaks so many rules I just described. It is the embodiment of bloated convoluted design that is plaguing the game as a whole.

• The effect cooldown might aswell be an invisible animation - bad for both parties
• The effect might aswell be invisible - bad for both parties
• The effect isn't well described anywhere in game where players can learn it, it should be on the tooltips much like how status effect skills should list the status effect info.
• The stun has no leading telegraph since it isn't linked to a skill. This is likely because originally it was supposed to be only on dizzy swings or FULLY CHARGED heavy attacks and zos just forgot and left it. There is no way to see or react to light/heavy attack procs because the flags that trigger effects happen at the start of the animation, which gets canceled anyways. This hard punishes the defending party to an unfair degree. Javelin for example is healthier in this respect I can see the telegraph and counterplay......even if not counterplayed I can prepare to hit cc break before it hits. Fossilize breaks this rule, but old dk used to not be bursty so followup was limited other than a clear telegraphed leap.
• Since the stun is based on a debuff, ANY attacking party can accidentally trigger the above non existent telegraph. - This is bad for both parties.
• Because the stun isn't GCD locked it can pair with any combination of skills. Which goes against zos's original justification was that the OLDdizzy1.5d/wd hit too hard with the stun......but now you can do merci2.15 +Blastbones1.63 +Deep1.63 +Dbos1.63 all at the same time.

IDK I just dont see how offbalance is a clear and well designed counterplay concept. You could argue the counterplay is to use addon trackers and block for 7s to counter all the invisible aspects listed above, but ehhhhhhh thats pretty weak for an argument. Is that the fast paced interactive gameplay you want? Its also 2025, light attack weaving isn't skillful to any degree. Maybe back in 2015 that argument could hold more weight since people were just learning that you could click more than two buttons per second. The most important take away is that CC mechanics DIRECTLY impact how CLUNKY the game feels to the player, we should not praise zos for all the above bullet points.