ZOS, What's Your Viewpoint on Subclassing in PvP? Addressing the Unbalanced Meta and Low Midyear May

Markytous · August 4

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Vengeance and Midyear Mayhem only ever always spike traction in PVP zones because the usual non-PVP players dip their toes in PVP to get some of those Tickets/Reward Boxes. The usual PVP suspects are presumably playing all year-round filling the mostly empty Cyrodiil Servers and Imperial City, as well as the occasional Battlegrounds when/if the queues will ever pop. If anything, its the non-PVPers which end up filling these PVP zones during events (MYM and Vengeance) and constant changes to the PVP meta always drops dedicated PVP players off. Its very bold, audacious even, to assume that a "silent majority" of dedicated PVP players quit because of a couple one-week events (Vengeance). lol

There's already so much friction simply to play the game (e.g. hour-long queue to GH, get in, play five minutes, get kicked and have to re-queue) and years of pent-up frustration in the community that the Vengeance tests have been and will presumably continue to be extremely disruptive events that drive away players. The exact same thing happened back in the No-Proc Ravenwatch days.

People want to play the game not have their primary game mode forcibly taken over and turned into something that they don't want and don't enjoy. It wouldn't be an issue if they would simply leave GH up as normal while Vengeance was going on.

All 250 regular Grey Host players? Vengeance was full of new/casual players enjoying the game mode who VANISHED as soon as the Test Week ended.

JustLovely · August 4

Markytous wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Vengeance and Midyear Mayhem only ever always spike traction in PVP zones because the usual non-PVP players dip their toes in PVP to get some of those Tickets/Reward Boxes. The usual PVP suspects are presumably playing all year-round filling the mostly empty Cyrodiil Servers and Imperial City, as well as the occasional Battlegrounds when/if the queues will ever pop. If anything, its the non-PVPers which end up filling these PVP zones during events (MYM and Vengeance) and constant changes to the PVP meta always drops dedicated PVP players off. Its very bold, audacious even, to assume that a "silent majority" of dedicated PVP players quit because of a couple one-week events (Vengeance). lol

There's already so much friction simply to play the game (e.g. hour-long queue to GH, get in, play five minutes, get kicked and have to re-queue) and years of pent-up frustration in the community that the Vengeance tests have been and will presumably continue to be extremely disruptive events that drive away players. The exact same thing happened back in the No-Proc Ravenwatch days.

People want to play the game not have their primary game mode forcibly taken over and turned into something that they don't want and don't enjoy. It wouldn't be an issue if they would simply leave GH up as normal while Vengeance was going on.

All 250 regular Grey Host players? Vengeance was full of new/casual players enjoying the game mode who VANISHED as soon as the Test Week ended.

They vanished by day 3 of the last vengeance test. This further proves that vengeance is for PvE'rs. They got their achievements and left as soon as they got them. Vengeance is not a version of PvP that will hold anyone's interests for any notable amount of time.

Markytous · August 4

JustLovely wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Vengeance and Midyear Mayhem only ever always spike traction in PVP zones because the usual non-PVP players dip their toes in PVP to get some of those Tickets/Reward Boxes. The usual PVP suspects are presumably playing all year-round filling the mostly empty Cyrodiil Servers and Imperial City, as well as the occasional Battlegrounds when/if the queues will ever pop. If anything, its the non-PVPers which end up filling these PVP zones during events (MYM and Vengeance) and constant changes to the PVP meta always drops dedicated PVP players off. Its very bold, audacious even, to assume that a "silent majority" of dedicated PVP players quit because of a couple one-week events (Vengeance). lol

There's already so much friction simply to play the game (e.g. hour-long queue to GH, get in, play five minutes, get kicked and have to re-queue) and years of pent-up frustration in the community that the Vengeance tests have been and will presumably continue to be extremely disruptive events that drive away players. The exact same thing happened back in the No-Proc Ravenwatch days.

People want to play the game not have their primary game mode forcibly taken over and turned into something that they don't want and don't enjoy. It wouldn't be an issue if they would simply leave GH up as normal while Vengeance was going on.

All 250 regular Grey Host players? Vengeance was full of new/casual players enjoying the game mode who VANISHED as soon as the Test Week ended.

They vanished by day 3 of the last vengeance test. This further proves that vengeance is for PvE'rs. They got their achievements and left as soon as they got them. Vengeance is not a version of PvP that will hold anyone's interests for any notable amount of time.

So ESO PVP in general needs an overhaul if the only players presenting themselves in numbers at any given time are NOT PVP players.

JustLovely · August 4

Markytous wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Vengeance and Midyear Mayhem only ever always spike traction in PVP zones because the usual non-PVP players dip their toes in PVP to get some of those Tickets/Reward Boxes. The usual PVP suspects are presumably playing all year-round filling the mostly empty Cyrodiil Servers and Imperial City, as well as the occasional Battlegrounds when/if the queues will ever pop. If anything, its the non-PVPers which end up filling these PVP zones during events (MYM and Vengeance) and constant changes to the PVP meta always drops dedicated PVP players off. Its very bold, audacious even, to assume that a "silent majority" of dedicated PVP players quit because of a couple one-week events (Vengeance). lol

There's already so much friction simply to play the game (e.g. hour-long queue to GH, get in, play five minutes, get kicked and have to re-queue) and years of pent-up frustration in the community that the Vengeance tests have been and will presumably continue to be extremely disruptive events that drive away players. The exact same thing happened back in the No-Proc Ravenwatch days.

People want to play the game not have their primary game mode forcibly taken over and turned into something that they don't want and don't enjoy. It wouldn't be an issue if they would simply leave GH up as normal while Vengeance was going on.

All 250 regular Grey Host players? Vengeance was full of new/casual players enjoying the game mode who VANISHED as soon as the Test Week ended.

They vanished by day 3 of the last vengeance test. This further proves that vengeance is for PvE'rs. They got their achievements and left as soon as they got them. Vengeance is not a version of PvP that will hold anyone's interests for any notable amount of time.

So ESO PVP in general needs an overhaul if the only players presenting themselves in numbers at any given time are NOT PVP players.

Your words, not mine.

We know ZOS could return decent performance to Cyrodiil without vengeance nonsense. So why don't they just do that?

Markytous · August 4

JustLovely wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Vengeance and Midyear Mayhem only ever always spike traction in PVP zones because the usual non-PVP players dip their toes in PVP to get some of those Tickets/Reward Boxes. The usual PVP suspects are presumably playing all year-round filling the mostly empty Cyrodiil Servers and Imperial City, as well as the occasional Battlegrounds when/if the queues will ever pop. If anything, its the non-PVPers which end up filling these PVP zones during events (MYM and Vengeance) and constant changes to the PVP meta always drops dedicated PVP players off. Its very bold, audacious even, to assume that a "silent majority" of dedicated PVP players quit because of a couple one-week events (Vengeance). lol

There's already so much friction simply to play the game (e.g. hour-long queue to GH, get in, play five minutes, get kicked and have to re-queue) and years of pent-up frustration in the community that the Vengeance tests have been and will presumably continue to be extremely disruptive events that drive away players. The exact same thing happened back in the No-Proc Ravenwatch days.

People want to play the game not have their primary game mode forcibly taken over and turned into something that they don't want and don't enjoy. It wouldn't be an issue if they would simply leave GH up as normal while Vengeance was going on.

All 250 regular Grey Host players? Vengeance was full of new/casual players enjoying the game mode who VANISHED as soon as the Test Week ended.

They vanished by day 3 of the last vengeance test. This further proves that vengeance is for PvE'rs. They got their achievements and left as soon as they got them. Vengeance is not a version of PvP that will hold anyone's interests for any notable amount of time.

So ESO PVP in general needs an overhaul if the only players presenting themselves in numbers at any given time are NOT PVP players.

Your words, not mine.

We know ZOS could return decent performance to Cyrodiil without vengeance nonsense. So why don't they just do that?

They have done everything they can to not do so. I would love to live in a world where Vengeance Test is not needed but at the end of the day, as the remaining PVP community cannibalizes itself over Vengeance, the decision is on ZOS. They have the solution and both of us know they do and they refuse. Its no wonder why Cyrodiil servers are so empty even with such low population caps today; this is demoralizing.

Asdara · August 4

Every pts cycle doesnt change a thing, its so small and not impactful....

NordSwordnBoard · August 4

LadyGP wrote: »

For me it's the overall just... "feel" and "combat" of Cyro as a whole. I'm not even trying to get hyper focused on very specific issues just the overall pvp experience. Its just... truthfully... terrible in it's current state. I really wanted to get invested in this MYM even.. I went through the whole process of getting my subclassing skills maxed out... and just day after day after day of the event I felt so frustrated.

My frustration wasn't from my inability to get kills or anything like that... it was more of a "this is what cyro has become?" kind of thing.

Same for me about "This is what Cyrodiil has become?" I was stoked at first with sub classing, trying out new combos etc. The shine wore off after encountering people all running the SAME build/skills over and over. I never had a problem either going with META or going against it on my own. At least a different class could hit you with it, and different classes coped with it differently. This just feels like less creative thinking involved for players than ever before. That seems to be the opposite intention of subclassing... And your class is now practically meaningless unless you use Warden cheese charms from scribing.

I'm having difficulty staying engaged with this after almost 10 years. I would've been more interested in balancing scribing and adding a new class than this debacle. With Warden, Necro, and Arcanist all being amalgamations of the other classes, what content could they possibly offer us in the future that doesn't feel recycled?

logan68 · August 4

this is a non issue as they have said they are preparing to nerf a lot of things soon.

Markytous · August 4

logan68 wrote: »

this is a non issue as they have said they are preparing to nerf a lot of things soon.

They're nerfing the Shadow Skill Line in place of the Assassination Skill Line despite the fact that Classes no longer exist in the game. "A lot of things" is just incorrect.

LadyGP · August 5

Cyro performance right now is hands down the worst I've had in years. This isn't server lag... this is something different.

YandereGirlfriend · August 5

LadyGP wrote: »

Cyro performance right now is hands down the worst I've had in years. This isn't server lag... this is something different.

Add-on powerusers quickly ducking around the corner, hoping not to be seen.

a_u_s_t_y · August 5

Subclassing has just become stale very quickly, sure at the beginning it was new and fun, people experimenting with different and interesting set ups but eventually they all go towards the plar / nb / warden meta as it offers everything.. sustain, defence,crazy burst damage and it works great in 1v1/open world.

However this meta is extremely boring, you just play defensively until your ult is off cooldown and try get that incap/shalks/spec bow combo.. if you don’t get all crits they probably don’t die and you then just go defensive until you try the combo again, eventually one of you will get it and the fight will be over.

When this build is playing defensively it’s extremely hard to kill, sitting in rune and cleanse with infinite sustain then at any moment they can unleash a devastating burst combo.

Also.. warden class script is defo over performing.. unblockable/undodgable delayed charm that has a big area of effect and has low cost..

licenturion · August 5

Whatever ZOS does, nothing will change.

In a competitive PvP environment people will always switch to the stuff that gives them the most competitive edge.

This happens in all games.

In Call Of Duty most people use the weapon builds that have the 1 percent advantage of the season to get more kills. In Overwatch people use the hero that is slightly OP since the latest patch. Or in even in PvE games like diablo most people run the same builds to clear content as fast as possible to get faster rewards so they can get even more powerful. This is just human nature for many of us and is also inherent of modern online gaming, where best most OP builds are published everywhere 5 minutes after a patch is live.

If ZOS switches up some skill lines, the meta will shift to those new skill + set combinations and nearly everyone will use them until the next change. And I can guarantee you this will always happen now that builds are not locked to classes anymore. In a way this is a huge advantage because everyone can use the most competitive build possible and not be at a disadvantage because of their class choice.

People like to win, and will use all the best tools available to them to do that. No matter which game. Experimenting with 'fun builds' is something that people do in single player RPG's, not in an online competitive environment. Because for most of us winning is the fun part.

moderatelyfatman · August 5

Markytous wrote: »

For me Subclassing has made me realize that build theorycrafting is now like fingerpainting where most of the options are just different colors of making a mess! See, there's still an optimal way of fingerpainting the "meta" way where you draw a Red Bow and Arrow (Grim Focus) or you grab the blue paints and draw your funny beetles (Deep Fissure), but every other option is just mixing up all these colors. What do you get when the kindergarten class is done fingerpainting? Well the colors all mix together and end up with a mushy dull amalgam of color where the bright hues no longer exist.

The choices I make with regards to class skills make no difference unless they're outlier overpowered ones. I'm not feeling like selling my soul, so I have removed Grim Focus, Deep Fissure and Streak from my characters. I was always a fan of Two-handed Skills anyways. What does this mean? It means Subclassing has turned me off of Class Skills as a whole and if I can utilize Scribing or Sets to "sub in" some important buffs for PVP viability thats what I will do. Players who refuse to lose in PVP will not lose to you, and players who were going to lose to you in PVP were going to lose to Uppercut-spam no matter what build you were on. The power gap with slotting Assassination or Animal Companion Skill Lines and not is so high that everything feels meaningless and trivial. Fast track the entire meta into staleness with this one easy trick!

HEY! You leave fingerpainting alone!
How dare you compare the current state of ESO to something like this:

moderatelyfatman · August 5

@licenturion
The problem is that the meta in ESO is more than 1% better than the next strongest build.
If we had a meta for each pure class and the difference between the best and worst was less than 10% in actual content, would the majority of players still be complaining?

LadyGP wrote: »

Cyro performance right now is hands down the worst I've had in years. This isn't server lag... this is something different.

Yeah, ZOS had to let go of the server technician on the left....

PureeEvil · August 5

You say that the damage is very high. But the real reason is the heavy armor and the fact that the lack of medium armor is now compensated by the subclass.

For example, we are building a build:

NB Assassination/Temp Aedric Spear/Necro Grave Lord or Sorc strik
and in medium armor, 1vsX it is very difficult. but when we get havy armor we lose only 200-300spd 2-6% or crit rate and some crit. not critical for hight damage. However, the lack of a healing branch is fully compensated for. snd you and you can still get up to 7000 weapon power and get all % damage buffs.

Add a debuff to reduce outgoing damage for a piece of heavy armor, and everything will be fine.

LadyGP · August 5

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Cyro performance right now is hands down the worst I've had in years. This isn't server lag... this is something different.

Add-on powerusers quickly ducking around the corner, hoping not to be seen.

When I'm out of group I have a lot less add-ons so I'm not sure it's add-on related. I mean, add-ons contribute in some capacity but it is 1%, 50%, 100% of the problem - no telling.