ZOS, What's Your Viewpoint on Subclassing in PvP? Addressing the Unbalanced Meta and Low Midyear May

LadyGP · August 4

Been working on this post for a few days now... so bear with me here.

When subclassing was first announced during the ESO Direct 2025 stream in April, ZOS emphasized something along the lines of, "We will be paying close attention to subclassing's impact on PvP and make any necessary adjustments to ensure balanced gameplay." (Paraphrased from the announcement; if anyone has the exact wording from the stream or official post, please share it below.) This was reassuring at the time, as it acknowledged the potential for meta shifts in competitive environments like Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.

However, several months in, the silence from ZOS on this front is concerning. We've seen subclassing become base game content and even receive nerfs during the Update 47 PTS cycle, which included adjustments to balance overall gameplay. But specific updates on PvP tuning have been absent, despite growing player feedback. I'd like to highlight some key issues constructively, backed by community discussions and recent events, in hopes of sparking a productive dialogue and perhaps getting an official response on ZOS's ongoing plans for subclassing in PvP.

1. The Current PvP Meta: One of the Worst in Recent Memory?
From player reports across forums and social media, the subclassing system has contributed to a highly unbalanced meta that's frustrating for many. While it offers exciting build variety combinations have led to excessive burst damage and tanky, unkillable setups (worse that those that were out there prior to subclassing). This has shifted PvP toward a "tank-heavy" environment where players must stack defenses to survive, often at the expense of fun and diversity.

Key player complaints include:

Excessive Power Creep and Burst Damage: Subclassing enables overpowered combinations that result in extreme burst, creating volatile fights where players are one-shot without meaningful counterplay, making sessions feel unfair and unenjoyable.
Shift to a Tanky, Drawn-Out Meta: Many describe a move toward high-health, sustain-focused builds that prolong combats endlessly, turning dynamic PvP into sluggish, boring slogs that drain the excitement from gameplay.
Overall Imbalance Leading to Frustration: Feedback highlights the meta as "broken" and "the worst ever," with subclassing amplifying disparities that favor repetitive, min-maxed playstyles over skill and variety, leaving players disillusioned.
Performance Issues Sour the Experience: Server lag and bugs compound the meta's problems, turning potentially fun subclassing elements into aggravating ordeals that make PvP feel "horrible" and unrewarding.

2. Midyear Mayhem 2025: Shockingly Low Turnout
The recent MYM event in exemplified these issues, with one of the lowest participations in years. Despite added campaigns, queues were excessively long (e.g., 30-40+ minutes for Grey Host, positions in the 70s-80s), but this masked the reality: many players were AFK or running macros overnight due to a lack of actual fights. Players reported the event as "pointless" and "most disappointing," citing:

Event Fatigue and Rewards: Overly repetitive rewards and forced participation in unenjoyable activities.
PvP-Specific Issues: Subclassing's imbalance, combined with server performance, drove turnout down further.
Declining Trends: Each MYM sees fewer players, but 2025 was "shockingly low," with some blaming the Vengeance campaign for splitting the community or deterring non-zerg players.

This isn't just anecdotal forum threads confirm a broader dip in PvP engagement, potentially tied to unresolved meta problems.

3. What Are ZOS's Plans for Subclassing in PvP?
ZOS, you promised to review and adjust subclassing for PvP, but we haven't heard specifics since the initial announcement and PTS nerfs (which I argue wouldn't change much of the issues PvP is dealing with at the moment). Could we get an update on your perspective? Are there targeted PvP balances in the works for Update 48, such as limits on cross-class skills, tweaks to burst damage, or just pulling subclassing for PvP all together?

* I had to have ai format my crazy thoughts so if this reads like AI... that is why. Don't roast me

PureeEvil · August 4

I see the biggest problem in the increased damage that can now be dealt in heavy armor. The solution is to add a -10% damage debuff per piece.

Eskibidus · August 4

PureeEvil wrote: »

I see the biggest problem in the increased damage that can now be dealt in heavy armor. The solution is to add a -10% damage debuff per piece.

Sure, you can deal enough damage in heavy armor, but that’s not the issue. Even someone with 40k resistances and 35k HP can still die to a double plar+cro combo, or nb+den+plar, if they don’t block at the right time. (btw these builds just use 1 piece heavy trainee)
The real issue right now is the high crit chance (mainly due to the Assassination skill line and Cro's passive), the high crit damage, and the lack of ways to increase crit resistance (without too many drawbacks)

PureeEvil · August 4

Eskibidus wrote: »

PureeEvil wrote: »

I see the biggest problem in the increased damage that can now be dealt in heavy armor. The solution is to add a -10% damage debuff per piece.

Sure, you can deal enough damage in heavy armor, but that’s not the issue. Even someone with 40k resistances and 35k HP can still die to a double plar+cro combo, or nb+den+plar, if they don’t block at the right time. (btw these builds just use 1 piece heavy trainee)
The real issue right now is the high crit chance (mainly due to the Assassination skill line and Cro's passive), the high crit damage, and the lack of ways to increase crit resistance (without too many drawbacks)

you're just describing the damage. The real problem is when someone in heavy armor deals that damage. The damage itself hasn't increased much. Yes, the weapon's power and critical strike have increased. But when it's done by someone in medium-light armor, it makes sense. However, when it's done by someone in heavy armor, it's a different story.

LadyGP · August 4

For me it's the overall just... "feel" and "combat" of Cyro as a whole. I'm not even trying to get hyper focused on very specific issues just the overall pvp experience. Its just... truthfully... terrible in it's current state. I really wanted to get invested in this MYM even.. I went through the whole process of getting my subclassing skills maxed out... and just day after day after day of the event I felt so frustrated.

My frustration wasn't from my inability to get kills or anything like that... it was more of a "this is what cyro has become?" kind of thing.

ksbrugh · August 4

Zos says, everything working as intended LOL.
We've almost got PVP completely shut down our plan is working mawhahaha.
Just a few more updates and the PVE World Is Ours and alone at last. Mawhahaha

Your last Roe farm battle is nearing its end.
We will get you all yes all of you and your pretty little non-combat dog too bawhahahahaha

No non combat pet or zos member was hurt in the process of making this satire

Markytous · August 4

For me Subclassing has made me realize that build theorycrafting is now like fingerpainting where most of the options are just different colors of making a mess! See, there's still an optimal way of fingerpainting the "meta" way where you draw a Red Bow and Arrow (Grim Focus) or you grab the blue paints and draw your funny beetles (Deep Fissure), but every other option is just mixing up all these colors. What do you get when the kindergarten class is done fingerpainting? Well the colors all mix together and end up with a mushy dull amalgam of color where the bright hues no longer exist.

The choices I make with regards to class skills make no difference unless they're outlier overpowered ones. I'm not feeling like selling my soul, so I have removed Grim Focus, Deep Fissure and Streak from my characters. I was always a fan of Two-handed Skills anyways. What does this mean? It means Subclassing has turned me off of Class Skills as a whole and if I can utilize Scribing or Sets to "sub in" some important buffs for PVP viability thats what I will do. Players who refuse to lose in PVP will not lose to you, and players who were going to lose to you in PVP were going to lose to Uppercut-spam no matter what build you were on. The power gap with slotting Assassination or Animal Companion Skill Lines and not is so high that everything feels meaningless and trivial. Fast track the entire meta into staleness with this one easy trick!

LadyGP · August 4

Markytous wrote: »

For me Subclassing has made me realize that build theorycrafting is now like fingerpainting where most of the options are just different colors of making a mess! See, there's still an optimal way of fingerpainting the "meta" way where you draw a Red Bow and Arrow (Grim Focus) or you grab the blue paints and draw your funny beetles (Deep Fissure), but every other option is just mixing up all these colors. What do you get when the kindergarten class is done fingerpainting? Well the colors all mix together and end up with a mushy dull amalgam of color where the bright hues no longer exist.

The choices I make with regards to class skills make no difference unless they're outlier overpowered ones. I'm not feeling like selling my soul, so I have removed Grim Focus, Deep Fissure and Streak from my characters. I was always a fan of Two-handed Skills anyways. What does this mean? It means Subclassing has turned me off of Class Skills as a whole and if I can utilize Scribing or Sets to "sub in" some important buffs for PVP viability thats what I will do. Players who refuse to lose in PVP will not lose to you, and players who were going to lose to you in PVP were going to lose to Uppercut-spam no matter what build you were on. The power gap with slotting Assassination or Animal Companion Skill Lines and not is so high that everything feels meaningless and trivial. Fast track the entire meta into staleness with this one easy trick!

Thats another really well way to say it and I agree - I don't have the buy in.. or the commietment to my toon (or eso as a whole now) because.. I don't feel like anything I do matters in this game anymore.

And I think thats the deeper problem with this game as a whole. The "play as you want" mindset is a good one - but the unintended consiquences of that is that there is no buy in, no loyalty, nothing matters. Nothing you do feels significant...

It's as if you tool a pill to numb all your senses and you're just going through life (eso) with the saturation turned down to 5%.

Desiato · August 4

Subclassing isn't balanced, will never be balanced, cannot be balanced.

The decision to implement subclassing probably influenced the decision to experiment with Vengeance.

Major_Mangle · August 4

PureeEvil wrote: »

Eskibidus wrote: »

PureeEvil wrote: »

I see the biggest problem in the increased damage that can now be dealt in heavy armor. The solution is to add a -10% damage debuff per piece.

Sure, you can deal enough damage in heavy armor, but that’s not the issue. Even someone with 40k resistances and 35k HP can still die to a double plar+cro combo, or nb+den+plar, if they don’t block at the right time. (btw these builds just use 1 piece heavy trainee)
The real issue right now is the high crit chance (mainly due to the Assassination skill line and Cro's passive), the high crit damage, and the lack of ways to increase crit resistance (without too many drawbacks)

you're just describing the damage. The real problem is when someone in heavy armor deals that damage. The damage itself hasn't increased much. Yes, the weapon's power and critical strike have increased. But when it's done by someone in medium-light armor, it makes sense. However, when it's done by someone in heavy armor, it's a different story.

Except all those people you think are wearing heavy armor isn´t using heavy armor. We´re not in 2016-2017 Blackrose meta. Heavy armor hasn´t been the "to-go" in PvP for many many years.

PureeEvil · August 4

Major_Mangle wrote: »

PureeEvil wrote: »

Eskibidus wrote: »

PureeEvil wrote: »

I see the biggest problem in the increased damage that can now be dealt in heavy armor. The solution is to add a -10% damage debuff per piece.

Sure, you can deal enough damage in heavy armor, but that’s not the issue. Even someone with 40k resistances and 35k HP can still die to a double plar+cro combo, or nb+den+plar, if they don’t block at the right time. (btw these builds just use 1 piece heavy trainee)
The real issue right now is the high crit chance (mainly due to the Assassination skill line and Cro's passive), the high crit damage, and the lack of ways to increase crit resistance (without too many drawbacks)

you're just describing the damage. The real problem is when someone in heavy armor deals that damage. The damage itself hasn't increased much. Yes, the weapon's power and critical strike have increased. But when it's done by someone in medium-light armor, it makes sense. However, when it's done by someone in heavy armor, it's a different story.

Except all those people you think are wearing heavy armor isn´t using heavy armor. We´re not in 2016-2017 Blackrose meta. Heavy armor hasn´t been the "to-go" in PvP for many many years.

it wasn't. but now it is. Too minor debuffs and the ability to compensate for the lack of medium armor breaks everything.

Markytous · August 4

Major_Mangle wrote: »

PureeEvil wrote: »

Eskibidus wrote: »

PureeEvil wrote: »

I see the biggest problem in the increased damage that can now be dealt in heavy armor. The solution is to add a -10% damage debuff per piece.

Sure, you can deal enough damage in heavy armor, but that’s not the issue. Even someone with 40k resistances and 35k HP can still die to a double plar+cro combo, or nb+den+plar, if they don’t block at the right time. (btw these builds just use 1 piece heavy trainee)
The real issue right now is the high crit chance (mainly due to the Assassination skill line and Cro's passive), the high crit damage, and the lack of ways to increase crit resistance (without too many drawbacks)

you're just describing the damage. The real problem is when someone in heavy armor deals that damage. The damage itself hasn't increased much. Yes, the weapon's power and critical strike have increased. But when it's done by someone in medium-light armor, it makes sense. However, when it's done by someone in heavy armor, it's a different story.

Except all those people you think are wearing heavy armor isn´t using heavy armor. We´re not in 2016-2017 Blackrose meta. Heavy armor hasn´t been the "to-go" in PvP for many many years.

Agree. Passive mitigation, blocking with Shields, and Rallying Cry (crit resistance so high) make players unkillable now on top of Subclassing in %MAX Hp heals if desired. The only way to really defeat a player in PVP only ever was Burst in ESO from the beginning and everyone runs around with 35kHP~. PVP where nobody wants to die and will not die? We got that and ESO gives it generously.

Stamicka · August 4

Even before subclassing released, I was very vocal about how it would be bad for the game and how it would reduce populations. So far my opinion hasn’t changed, in fact it’s even worse than I expected.

Subclassing led to homogenization as expected, it increased the power gap, made it harder to learn and get into PvP, and it’s nearly impossible to balance in the long term. It’s just a recipe for disaster in nearly every way. I think that subclassing lowered TTK in some cases, but a lot of people seem to slot Restoring Light and camp their rune. The TTK is as long as ever when you run into that sort of thing.

It seems like the TTK isn’t actually all that different between more experienced or properly built players, but it’s extremely low when it’s a properly built player against someone who isn’t. That’s like the worst case scenario and I don’t understand how anyone who values fairness, challenge, and competition (basically a real PvPer) can stand by a system like subclassing.

In a way subclassing is also selecting for players who like having a power advantage over others, but that will only kill the game faster. In the end, the inexperienced or more casual players will avoid fighting at all costs or they’ll simply never return to PvP. Honestly, part of the reason that Midyear Mayhem seemed so dead even in Grey Host could’ve been exactly for this reason. Players would rather sit afk or intentionally only siege empty keeps than engage in real PvP. At this point I can’t even fault them.

Not even theorycrafting with this system is very fun. You’ll just end up with a build centered around shalks, some flavor of Nightblade, or a defile DoT build.

ZOS should consider disabling subclassing in all PvP environments. It’s clearly not going well.

Asdara · August 4

my main issue is that they try to balance thing with out of nowhere scalpel precision change when we need bold and massive shovel size changes

Markytous · August 4

Stamicka wrote: »

Even before subclassing released, I was very vocal about how it would be bad for the game and how it would reduce populations. So far my opinion hasn’t changed, in fact it’s even worse than I expected.

Subclassing led to homogenization as expected, it increased the power gap, made it harder to learn and get into PvP, and it’s nearly impossible to balance in the long term. It’s just a recipe for disaster in nearly every way. I think that subclassing lowered TTK in some cases, but a lot of people seem to slot Restoring Light and camp their rune. The TTK is as long as ever when you run into that sort of thing.

It seems like the TTK isn’t actually all that different between more experienced or properly built players, but it’s extremely low when it’s a properly built player against someone who isn’t. That’s like the worst case scenario and I don’t understand how anyone who values fairness, challenge, and competition (basically a real PvPer) can stand by a system like subclassing.

In a way subclassing is also selecting for players who like having a power advantage over others, but that will only kill the game faster. In the end, the inexperienced or more casual players will avoid fighting at all costs or they’ll simply never return to PvP. Honestly, part of the reason that Midyear Mayhem seemed so dead even in Grey Host could’ve been exactly for this reason. Players would rather sit afk or intentionally only siege empty keeps than engage in real PvP. At this point I can’t even fault them.

Not even theorycrafting with this system is very fun. You’ll just end up with a build centered around shalks, some flavor of Nightblade, or a defile DoT build.

ZOS should consider disabling subclassing in all PvP environments. It’s clearly not going well.

I love what you say with regards to the "selecting of players" part especially. Whenever I see someone with an amalgam of Assassination and Animal Companion skills I just go full troll mode and use stuns/play the ranged angle/ generally make their rock carousel gameplay as annoying as possible because you know that the player is a person who doesn't care about the game's health or balance. They care more about winning today than having a functioning/playable game tomorrow. Nobody wants to play against them lol Not even their own caliber of player does because they will not attack each other/know each other by name.

YandereGirlfriend · August 4

Subclassing is the best addition that they've made to the game in a long time. Everyone knows the OP lines and what needs to be done with them, starting with Assassination. But overall, the good of subclassing massively outweighs whatever short-term balance issues may or may not be present.

Another thing to consider, that would help in both PvE and PvP, would be reducing the Critical Hit bonus damage to +100% from +125%. That would render the meta of Critical Damage stacking much less useful in PvP as well as reign-in overall damage in PvE. +125% was always a completely arbitrary number, so replacing one arbitrary value for another is not exactly an outlandish change. As well as adding in more sources of Critical Resistance in the form of Mundus, Alchemy, etc.

These are EZ changes that can be made very quickly. They just need to be done.

PuddingZebra · August 4

I've said it before and i'll say it again. Alot of what current "balance" has wrong can be fixed to a certain degree by separating healing and damage scaling.
Make healing ONLY scale with maximum resources (MAG/STAM, not HP). And damage ONLY scale with ...well.. Weapon and spell DAMAGE.

This forces players to actually think about and sacrifice certain aspects of their builds. Want sustained fights? Spec more into maximum resources so you can outlast the opponent. Wanna just focus on HUGE damage? Sure. go full weapon damage and crit damage. At the cost of any healing.
Wanna be midrange? you wont excel in anything in favour of balanced/consistent performance.

Currently theres almost no incentive to build into max mag/stam. This causes an issue where people just stack HP, damage and crit.

I also think reverting the nerf to Impen is a solid way to not force everyone to run Rallying Cry. Give us more options to counterplay against crit.

I absolutely ADORE subclassing as someone who loves making unique/silly builds and making them work. But i really dislike the current way the game plays. Where theres no reward for thinking outside the box. Just slap on the 3 most overperforming subclasses, equip rallying cry +whatever other set and call it a day.

Oblivion_Protocol · August 4

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Subclassing is the best addition that they've made to the game in a long time. Everyone knows the OP lines and what needs to be done with them, starting with Assassination. But overall, the good of subclassing massively outweighs whatever short-term balance issues may or may not be present.

“The good of subclassing”? What good? Where? Explain it to me like I’m eight years old, nice and slow with lots of details. Draw it in crayon if you have to, because I (and clearly a massive segment of the game’s population) don’t see how any good in this system outweighs the bad.

To your point about how people can now see where the broken lines are, I don’t know whether you noticed, but the “broken lines” are the same ones we’ve been complaining about for years before this. Just do a forum search for “Merciless Resolve” or “Spec Bow”, and you’ll turn up hours worth of reading in complaints, fix suggestions, and general screaming.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Another thing to consider, that would help in both PvE and PvP, would be reducing the Critical Hit bonus damage to +100% from +125%. That would render the meta of Critical Damage stacking much less useful in PvP as well as reign-in overall damage in PvE. +125% was always a completely arbitrary number, so replacing one arbitrary value for another is not exactly an outlandish change. As well as adding in more sources of Critical Resistance in the form of Mundus, Alchemy, etc.

That’s not how the crit cap works. It’s not a set threshold programmed into the game. 125% is what people have suggested for years because it’s the maximum amount you can reach before you start running into diminishing returns. With the new mythic and subclassing, that doesn’t matter. People are running around with 150% crit damage and hitting for every bit of it.

If you meant that critical damage shouldn’t go any higher than 100% period, then people will just spec more into w/s damage and still hit like trucks.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 4

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

That’s not how the crit cap works. It’s not a set threshold programmed into the game. 125% is what people have suggested for years because it’s the maximum amount you can reach before you start running into diminishing returns. With the new mythic and subclassing, that doesn’t matter. People are running around with 150% crit damage and hitting for every bit of it.

If you meant that critical damage shouldn’t go any higher than 100% period, then people will just spec more into w/s damage and still hit like trucks.

Well, not really. It is a set threshold programmed into the game - 125% is the maximum crit damage in PvE. Any amount higher does nothing.

In PvP, people have crit resist, and the cap is applied AFTER Crit Resist is accounted for, so you can push closer to 140% or so and still not worry about reaching cap. It's still a set threshold, its just that much like Pen vs Resistance, you can go over the cap because PvP has counterplay stats taken into account before the cap is applied.

React · August 4

I don't have any issues whatsoever with the damage power creep subclassing introduced. If anything, that is the only part of the system that has actually been enjoyable - being able to actually burst eachother again.

But the lack of adjustments to the lesser used skill lines in passives is a huge turn off for me. It means that we're going to spend another 3-4 months minimum with the current subclassing meta, which consists largely of the same 5-6 skill lines being used on everybody. It's already getting stale and will get much worse before update 48 arrives, and who knows if they'll even make any significant changes in that update.

You're right about the population. It was the lowest I've ever seen it by a huge margin during this PVP event, and even BEFORE the PVP event it was the lowest I've ever seen it. I don't know if it's because of subclassing as a whole, or just general declining population, but if they don't at least TRY to do something soon I can't imagine things will improve. By the next PVP event we may not even need any additional campaigns added whatsoever.

YandereGirlfriend · August 4

I would actually lay the (perceived) decline in population squarely at the feet of Vengeance.

My guild loses players every time that the format comes up because most seasoned PvP players hate it and essentially go on vacation from the entire game when it is up.

Inertia is huge in gaming and once people break the pattern of logging into Cyro in the evenings they drift off to other games and do not come back.

Subclassing is literally the only thing that I can remember that actually brought lapsed PvP players back to the game to check out the changes.

ScardyFox · August 4

In short, it was lazy and short-sighted, and the genie is out of the bottle.

Markytous · August 4

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would actually lay the (perceived) decline in population squarely at the feet of Vengeance.

My guild loses players every time that the format comes up because most seasoned PvP players hate it and essentially go on vacation from the entire game when it is up.

Inertia is huge in gaming and once people break the pattern of logging into Cyro in the evenings they drift off to other games and do not come back.

Subclassing is literally the only thing that I can remember that actually brought lapsed PvP players back to the game to check out the changes.

There aren't enough seasoned PVP players still playing the game for this to be valid.

LadyGP · August 4

Markytous wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would actually lay the (perceived) decline in population squarely at the feet of Vengeance.

My guild loses players every time that the format comes up because most seasoned PvP players hate it and essentially go on vacation from the entire game when it is up.

Inertia is huge in gaming and once people break the pattern of logging into Cyro in the evenings they drift off to other games and do not come back.

Subclassing is literally the only thing that I can remember that actually brought lapsed PvP players back to the game to check out the changes.

There aren't enough seasoned PVP players still playing the game for this to be valid.

Not true.

DoofusMax · August 4

To the OP's overall point, I don't recall the exact phrasing in the livestream, but the devs acknowledged that subclassing was going to create a power spike, that they were willing to live with that, and that they would be looking at rebalancing down the road. The broader emphasis seemed to be on getting subclassing rolled out now and tweaking later. Whether that was a prudent approach to it is debatable, although I tend to favor feature and balance at the same time, but those are the conditions which exist and the decisions by those who decide. At the end of the day, I play the game I have or I don't play.

To that extent, the first bullet point seems to be spot-on. In a straight-up 1v1 under the current setup in Cyrodiil, my characters tend to last about 1 or 1.5 seconds against current meta builds, which is a good indicator of overwhelming burst damage (and also my running an off-meta build). On the flip side of that, damage mitigation is off the charts. I've watched players take direct hits from siege weapons while being swarmed by two or three DDs and it doesn't even blip on their health bars (no siege shield running). "Play how you want" doesn't work very well under "one build (or two or three) to rule them all" conditions.

To the second bullet point, those are typical complaints about events in general. I don't mind popping into the 7-day Whitestrake's campaigns to get my tickets, snag skyshards, clear Cyrodiil side-quests/delves/etc., farm Cyrodiil sets for the stickerbook, and general PvE'ing while keeping my head on a swivel. I keep my 30-day home campaign is for Alliance War stuff and if I can pick up a couple of tickets while doing that, then it's fine. I think I'll agree on some of the rewards, though; I'm getting pretty tired of Mammoth bones and outfit style pages that everyone has already collected and can't even be given away. It's kind of like the Jesters banners and cherry blossom runeboxes or the Anniversary garlands and wreaths. Now that I think about it, the idea of building a bookcase out of Jesters boxes and filling it with the many full sets of the Songs of Pelinal (or maybe build the bookcase out of books and fill it with Jesters boxes?).

Stamicka · August 4

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Subclassing is literally the only thing that I can remember that actually brought lapsed PvP players back to the game to check out the changes.

Where are these lapsed PvPers though? They weren't involved in Midyear Mayhem. They weren't around before the event either cause the population was also horribly low.

In my experience it's been the opposite. Subclassing solidified decisions to never come back or caused existing players to quit. I have quite a few friends who used to play ESO and not a single one of them had any interest in returning to the game. Some of them quit soon after the launch of One Tamriel because the game became too cheesy... I can't imagine what they would think now.

Markytous · August 4

Vengeance and Midyear Mayhem only ever always spike traction in PVP zones because the usual non-PVP players dip their toes in PVP to get some of those Tickets/Reward Boxes. The usual PVP suspects are presumably playing all year-round filling the mostly empty Cyrodiil Servers and Imperial City, as well as the occasional Battlegrounds when/if the queues will ever pop. If anything, its the non-PVPers which end up filling these PVP zones during events (MYM and Vengeance) and constant changes to the PVP meta always drops dedicated PVP players off. Its very bold, audacious even, to assume that a "silent majority" of dedicated PVP players quit because of a couple one-week events (Vengeance). lol

Deimus · August 4

PvP was in a much better state before Subclassing. The way this system was implemented goes against the "Play your way" theme they were trying to push. It makes many skill lines completely undesirable in favor of a few over performing lines that the majority of players will use. This causes an even more homogeneous meta than before when half the PvP players were using 2 out of the 7 classes.

I prefer new systems that add to our existing characters. Things like Scribing, Antiquity Mythic gear, and the Psijic Order skill line. Subclassing presents itself this way, but actually just replaces parts of our character instead of adding to it.

While I think the entire system in its current state should be rolled back for the sake of balance and future health of the game I know that won't happen. So instead they need to add more limitations or restructure how Subclassing works. They could make it only skills without the passives, limit it to one skill line at a time instead of two, or actually make it an addition by allowing you to expand on your character with 1 additional skill line to your 3 base class lines.

Maybe it needs something completely different. I believe there could be a way to make Subclassing work, but we're not on that path with the combat team not taking action preferring a wait and see mentality. The Combat and Abilities section of this PTS should be 5x the size that it is, and we should be seeing attempts to raise up the least used skill lines while curbing the over performers to make the percentage of skill line usage as equivalent as possible.

JustLovely · August 4

LadyGP wrote: »

Been working on this post for a few days now... so bear with me here.

When subclassing was first announced during the ESO Direct 2025 stream in April, ZOS emphasized something along the lines of, "We will be paying close attention to subclassing's impact on PvP and make any necessary adjustments to ensure balanced gameplay." (Paraphrased from the announcement; if anyone has the exact wording from the stream or official post, please share it below.) This was reassuring at the time, as it acknowledged the potential for meta shifts in competitive environments like Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.

However, several months in, the silence from ZOS on this front is concerning. We've seen subclassing become base game content and even receive nerfs during the Update 47 PTS cycle, which included adjustments to balance overall gameplay. But specific updates on PvP tuning have been absent, despite growing player feedback. I'd like to highlight some key issues constructively, backed by community discussions and recent events, in hopes of sparking a productive dialogue and perhaps getting an official response on ZOS's ongoing plans for subclassing in PvP.

1. The Current PvP Meta: One of the Worst in Recent Memory?
From player reports across forums and social media, the subclassing system has contributed to a highly unbalanced meta that's frustrating for many. While it offers exciting build variety combinations have led to excessive burst damage and tanky, unkillable setups (worse that those that were out there prior to subclassing). This has shifted PvP toward a "tank-heavy" environment where players must stack defenses to survive, often at the expense of fun and diversity.

Key player complaints include:
Excessive Power Creep and Burst Damage: Subclassing enables overpowered combinations that result in extreme burst, creating volatile fights where players are one-shot without meaningful counterplay, making sessions feel unfair and unenjoyable.

Shift to a Tanky, Drawn-Out Meta: Many describe a move toward high-health, sustain-focused builds that prolong combats endlessly, turning dynamic PvP into sluggish, boring slogs that drain the excitement from gameplay.

Overall Imbalance Leading to Frustration: Feedback highlights the meta as "broken" and "the worst ever," with subclassing amplifying disparities that favor repetitive, min-maxed playstyles over skill and variety, leaving players disillusioned.

Performance Issues Sour the Experience: Server lag and bugs compound the meta's problems, turning potentially fun subclassing elements into aggravating ordeals that make PvP feel "horrible" and unrewarding.

2. Midyear Mayhem 2025: Shockingly Low Turnout
The recent MYM event in exemplified these issues, with one of the lowest participations in years. Despite added campaigns, queues were excessively long (e.g., 30-40+ minutes for Grey Host, positions in the 70s-80s), but this masked the reality: many players were AFK or running macros overnight due to a lack of actual fights. Players reported the event as "pointless" and "most disappointing," citing:
Event Fatigue and Rewards: Overly repetitive rewards and forced participation in unenjoyable activities.

PvP-Specific Issues: Subclassing's imbalance, combined with server performance, drove turnout down further.

Declining Trends: Each MYM sees fewer players, but 2025 was "shockingly low," with some blaming the Vengeance campaign for splitting the community or deterring non-zerg players.

This isn't just anecdotal forum threads confirm a broader dip in PvP engagement, potentially tied to unresolved meta problems.

3. What Are ZOS's Plans for Subclassing in PvP?
ZOS, you promised to review and adjust subclassing for PvP, but we haven't heard specifics since the initial announcement and PTS nerfs (which I argue wouldn't change much of the issues PvP is dealing with at the moment). Could we get an update on your perspective? Are there targeted PvP balances in the works for Update 48, such as limits on cross-class skills, tweaks to burst damage, or just pulling subclassing for PvP all together?

* I had to have ai format my crazy thoughts so if this reads like AI... that is why. Don't roast me

I feel like subclassing was ZOS' solution to balancing and new class creation. Instead of doing balancing or creating a new class, they just flipped the table over and are leaving it up to us to figure out what to do. I think it's highly unlikely we see a new class now, and even if we did it would be redundant because we can cut/paste a new class all on our own now. So I expect to see near zero dev time put into a new class or class balancing going forward.

Put another way, subclassing was a financial decision more than anything else. Now ZOS doesn't have to put any dev time into a new class or balancing the old classes.

JustLovely · August 4

Stamicka wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Subclassing is literally the only thing that I can remember that actually brought lapsed PvP players back to the game to check out the changes.

Where are these lapsed PvPers though? They weren't involved in Midyear Mayhem. They weren't around before the event either cause the population was also horribly low.

In my experience it's been the opposite. Subclassing solidified decisions to never come back or caused existing players to quit. I have quite a few friends who used to play ESO and not a single one of them had any interest in returning to the game. Some of them quit soon after the launch of One Tamriel because the game became too cheesy... I can't imagine what they would think now.

This is what I am seeing as well. Many of us feel like subclassing was the last gasp of a dying game. All indications are that ZOS isn't bringing in the income it used to either. Though I have to admit, all "evidence" I'm referring to is 100% anecdotal.

YandereGirlfriend · August 4

Markytous wrote: »

Vengeance and Midyear Mayhem only ever always spike traction in PVP zones because the usual non-PVP players dip their toes in PVP to get some of those Tickets/Reward Boxes. The usual PVP suspects are presumably playing all year-round filling the mostly empty Cyrodiil Servers and Imperial City, as well as the occasional Battlegrounds when/if the queues will ever pop. If anything, its the non-PVPers which end up filling these PVP zones during events (MYM and Vengeance) and constant changes to the PVP meta always drops dedicated PVP players off. Its very bold, audacious even, to assume that a "silent majority" of dedicated PVP players quit because of a couple one-week events (Vengeance). lol

There's already so much friction simply to play the game (e.g. hour-long queue to GH, get in, play five minutes, get kicked and have to re-queue) and years of pent-up frustration in the community that the Vengeance tests have been and will presumably continue to be extremely disruptive events that drive away players. The exact same thing happened back in the No-Proc Ravenwatch days.

People want to play the game not have their primary game mode forcibly taken over and turned into something that they don't want and don't enjoy. It wouldn't be an issue if they would simply leave GH up as normal while Vengeance was going on.