Im seeing the issue with Subclassing now.

Neloth · July 30

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

actually in PvP subclassing leads to quite diverse builds.

Nowadays on my sorc I have around 10 builds, which use skill lines of all other classes, and rotate between them.

before subclassing, I could play only (1), now I have like 10 different builds to play with. You can argue that everyone in PvP run streak, but it's just 1 skill line, useful for mobility. and you still have options instead - cloak, swift, mist (jk).

Role play wise sure that sounds great, but numerically people are just running the one of two template meta builds

Either Storm+animal+aedric with acuity onslaught
Or Storm+animal+assassination with onslaught

Subclassing is going to force zos to either gut passives to tone down the game, or force passives to be major/minors. One passive may give 100 recovery essentially worse than a 2-4 piece bonus.........while another gives 12% crit damage done+12% block damage done, which is better than 99% of the 5 piece bonuses in the game.

running 3 lines vs 3 other lines you will either have a build with 300 recovery or a build with 36% crit damage....... no wonder people are stacking the lines that they are.

I strongly disagree, in the cases which you provided you can at least:

1) swap animal with daedric/blastbones for delayed burst
2) swap storm for other mobility tool (cloak), and you don't even need storm that much outside of solo open world

actually personally I dislike animal + streak combination, since you end up missing shalks quite offen while rotating and when your opponent is not a compete potato. you might be better off with Daedric (sadly not crit bonuses) or blasbones line, but at least those don't miss and also hit harder

regarding passives, aedric crit is nice indeed, but attached skills are utter trash. spear is nice, but you already have streak in the cases you listed, jabs are trash, shards are trash, ult is weaker dawnbreaker, others I don't even remember. In many cases I would prefer to select skill line with actual skills.

100 recovery - I think most bonuses like shadow are % based? you get 100 only if you run low recovery build, and sustain via sets/things like dark deal. if you run around 2k, it should be more like 200, which is comparable to atro stone, while 12% crit is comparable to shadow one. balanced, in theory, but I agree that some regen passives could use a bit of improvement

again, I do not state that stacking crit chance is inefficient. It is strong, but you can also do it by using shadow + mythic + RAT + CP + maybe 1 passive, and select skill lines so you have more well rounded build depending on skills, not passives.

MincMincMinc · July 30

Neloth wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

actually in PvP subclassing leads to quite diverse builds.

Nowadays on my sorc I have around 10 builds, which use skill lines of all other classes, and rotate between them.

before subclassing, I could play only (1), now I have like 10 different builds to play with. You can argue that everyone in PvP run streak, but it's just 1 skill line, useful for mobility. and you still have options instead - cloak, swift, mist (jk).

Role play wise sure that sounds great, but numerically people are just running the one of two template meta builds

Either Storm+animal+aedric with acuity onslaught
Or Storm+animal+assassination with onslaught

Subclassing is going to force zos to either gut passives to tone down the game, or force passives to be major/minors. One passive may give 100 recovery essentially worse than a 2-4 piece bonus.........while another gives 12% crit damage done+12% block damage done, which is better than 99% of the 5 piece bonuses in the game.

running 3 lines vs 3 other lines you will either have a build with 300 recovery or a build with 36% crit damage....... no wonder people are stacking the lines that they are.

I strongly disagree, in the cases which you provided you can at least:

1) swap animal with daedric/blastbones for delayed burst
2) swap storm for other mobility tool (cloak), and you don't even need storm that much outside of solo open world

actually personally I dislike animal + streak combination, since you end up missing shalks quite offen while rotating and when your opponent is not a compete potato. you might be better off with Daedric (sadly not crit bonuses) or blasbones line, but at least those don't miss and also hit harder

regarding passives, aedric crit is nice indeed, but attached skills are utter trash. spear is nice, but you already have streak in the cases you listed, jabs are trash, shards are trash, ult is weaker dawnbreaker, others I don't even remember. In many cases I would prefer to select skill line with actual skills.

100 recovery - I think most bonuses like shadow are % based? you get 100 only if you run low recovery build, and sustain via sets/things like dark deal. if you run around 2k, it should be more like 200, which is comparable to atro stone, while 12% crit is comparable to shadow one. balanced, in theory, but I agree that some regen passives could use a bit of improvement

again, I do not state that stacking crit chance is inefficient. It is strong, but you can also do it by using shadow + mythic + RAT + CP + maybe 1 passive, and select skill lines so you have more well rounded build depending on skills, not passives.

Hard to stretch curse to say it is worth running daedric compared to animal. Focusing on the active portion of the skills sure the comparison is similar. "they are timed burst skills" this much is true, but in the full context of what that skill provides there is a clear winner......which is why 80% of pvp runs it now.

Deep fissure:
- Timed burst AoE
- 1.17 and 1.627 damage scaler (1.39 average....but for burst you only care about max)
- 2700 cost
- Major breach (9% damage done)
- Minor breach (4.5% damage done)
- 1530 heal
- 0.5 ult/sec
- 20% mag recovery
- 20% stam recovery
- 5% crit damage done

Curse
- Timed burst AoE
- 1.3558 damage scaler...............less damage and burst
- 2970 cost -371 rebate = 2599.................100mag less Woowee
- power stone amounts to about 0.5ult/sec for most ults and base gen....same
- 5% mit.....balances out buff wise with crit damage, but actually less efficient stat wise and wont be up while under pressure
- 5% max stam/mag depending where this ends up................Skills just dont scale with max stats to a useful degree to matter. Converted on a standard build amounts to a 129wd line. The warden 20% mag and stam regen amounts to 500regen on a base Orzorga's only build which directly converts to 500wd.

Its just not even close as a comparison. If you run deep fissure on a build vs a curse build it will feel like the deep fissure player has two additional 5 piece bonuses and then some bonus damage.

ercknn · August 4

In PvP everyone is running warden main to charm ->beatles->incap->spec bow.
Combo this with balorgh, sustain set, roa or rallying cry with monolyth mythic and you get your complete meta robot playstyle.
I already know this will be nerfed so enjoy it and use it while it lasts, especially if you aren’t really that good at PvP but want to be the MVP.

Enjoy the new meta everyone.
PS sustain can also come from Betty and Templar rune skill. Mobility for LOS comes from warden falcon. Healing comes from scribing.
You’re Welcome

randconfig · August 4

Xarc wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

We need a Vengeance PvE.

The idea of an ESO Classic is gradually being built with each new ESO expansion.

LOL as someone that's been here since the beginning, the game is infinitely better now than it was even just 5 years ago. The only exception is Cyrodil performance, and now the issues subclassing introduced including bugging Necromancer summons and giving everyone Arcanist Beam.

MincMincMinc · August 4

ercknn wrote: »

In PvP everyone is running warden main to charm ->beatles->incap->spec bow.
Combo this with balorgh, sustain set, roa or rallying cry with monolyth mythic and you get your complete meta robot playstyle.
I already know this will be nerfed so enjoy it and use it while it lasts, especially if you aren’t really that good at PvP but want to be the MVP.

Enjoy the new meta everyone.
PS sustain can also come from Betty and Templar rune skill. Mobility for LOS comes from warden falcon. Healing comes from scribing.
You’re Welcome

TBH you dont even need a sustain active skill anymore. It is so easy to just rely on imperial, tripots, and bear haunch now for sustain, especially now that merci gives savagery there is no other potion to run. Everyone being pushed medium armor because of the heavy and light debuffs basically accounts for all your roll dodge and breakfree stam sustain......so unless you run high cost skills or cant manage resources well, sustain is practically free and guaranteed.

Daoin · August 4

Rungar wrote: »

see what happens when you remove light weaving from the equation. Beam is the easiest dps that pretty much any player can do. This isnt a subclassing issue as much as it is a combat system issue. Players will avoid having to weave like its a plague.

yeah less people walking around scratching thier heads wondering why so many people looked for validation through weaving in the first place

Klingenlied · August 9

I think a hard nerf to beam or arcanist would be the worst thing that could happen. This likely would affect a great number of players in what would be received likely as a large inconvenience. There is a new "meta" that allows rather laid back gaming. Not that 120 actions per minute (if you weaved perfectly and did not use any skills with cast time or delay) is really a high number anyway in my opinion. But I don't think that matters. A large number of people seemingly really enjoy the new systems. And yes, I see the "old guard" complaining - not everyone, but some. But most people I play with .. well, they just continue doing what they deem the most fun. And - just for some kind of reality check - there are still players out there not playing beam and easily going way beyond 100k dps. Arcanist /beam ain't the only option for high dps. It just is an incredible simple one for high dps.

And as for me too - I think I enjoy the game more with subclassing. Because there is just more to try now. Though it is hard to say if it is subclassing only. New content brings new toys to play with - this won't change.

If there is a real issue, it would be a mix of in some cases real, and in some cases felt power gap between skills / skill lines. Its not only the numbers that need to be tuned right, it needs to "feel" good to play as well. And some skills still feel clunky and thus unfun / hard to use.

Finally, I like the idea of being able to fire any skill even without a target. Can be done with light attacks already, so might not even be hard to implement.

Navaac223 · August 9

ercknn wrote: »

I already know this will be nerfed so enjoy it and use it while it lasts, especially if you aren’t really that good at PvP but want to be the MVP.

You sweet summer child xD
If we were to get a nerf on anything assassination related, we'd be lucky

ercknn · August 15

Navaac223 wrote: »

ercknn wrote: »

I already know this will be nerfed so enjoy it and use it while it lasts, especially if you aren’t really that good at PvP but want to be the MVP.

You sweet summer child xD
If we were to get a nerf on anything assassination related, we'd be lucky

By nerfed I mean by next year. Anything like this becomes meta for at least a couple months before anything happens.

Still enjoy