Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Every aRPG and MMORPG I have ever played has (or had, for the ones that no longer exist, e.g. Marvel Heroes) terrible RNG; it just comes with the territory.
ESO is no different (better or worse) than any other game of the loot collection variety.

Yes, but Marvel Heroes is free-to-play, ESO is anything but. You have to pay for everything, and most of it is overpriced, lol. So it really shouldn’t be equal to or worse than that. You’re definitely paying just to suffer at this point. They clearly don’t understand the difference between free-to-play and pay-to-play, and mixing the two like this is exactly why people end up quitting

Morvan wrote: »

I disagree, it can be bad, but if you compare with most MMORPGs, ESO is pretty chill when it comes to grind and RNG.

It definitely used to be terrible before the stickerbook was a thing though.

It depends on what grind you are talking about. The gear grind is much better with transmutes, the stickerbook, and reconstruction. The housing grind, which is the area I am most involved in currently, requires time-consuming harvesting overland for rare mats, stingy low drop rates for furnishing plans in areas that are not base game, and low drop rates for antiquity furnishings, some of which are locked behind IA. You can play for a whole day with not much to show for it.

I don’t know about other MMOs, but ESO used to be better in regards to housing and has gotten much worse. If this is indeed one area that saved the game in Microsoft’s eyes then they need to make it more appealing to players or they will lose more.

Morvan wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

I disagree, it can be bad, but if you compare with most MMORPGs, ESO is pretty chill when it comes to grind and RNG.

It definitely used to be terrible before the stickerbook was a thing though.

It depends on what grind you are talking about. The gear grind is much better with transmutes, the stickerbook, and reconstruction. The housing grind, which is the area I am most involved in currently, requires time-consuming harvesting overland for rare mats, stingy low drop rates for furnishing plans in areas that are not base game, and low drop rates for antiquity furnishings, some of which are locked behind IA. You can play for a whole day with not much to show for it.

I don’t know about other MMOs, but ESO used to be better in regards to housing and has gotten much worse. If this is indeed one area that saved the game in Microsoft’s eyes then they need to make it more appealing to players or they will lose more.

Yeah but when it comes to housing we'd have to include trading and market in the discussion, aside from antiquities those are not bound items you are forced to grind yourself, they're necessary to build a good market system within the game, you can try grinding those yourself, or you can straight up buy from other people.

Just think how useless guild traders would be if you could get any motif, furnishing plan or material effortlessly.

True, and I do engage in trading when I can. The low drop rates make it hard to get anything to sell. I make the most gold by selling furnishing plans from the new zone but so far other than some furnishing plans from antiquities to sell (and they are common and not selling for much) I have only got maybe 5-6 green and blue plans which I learned myself. I get some gold from selling unused master writs and motif pages but it’s not a lot.

I’ve been doing the housing things for quite a while now, it was much easier during Elsweyr when drop rates were much better.

Desiato wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I don’t think much of it is true random rolls. Just look at something like the stickerbook, there are more weapons than armor but the weapons always drop last. There has to be some probability assigned to each type to get what I have experienced.

This is because different types of monsters drop different items.

For example, in overland:

Delves: belts and boots
Public Dungeons: Shoulders, Gloves and Weapons (bosses)
World Bosses: Head, Chest, Legs and Weapons
^ this was a general rule before, I can't say for certain it applies to every zone, but I know it's still generally true from recent experience.

The same goes for dungeons and (conventional) trials with minibosses, bosses and final bosses having different loot tables. Final bosses only drop jewelry, weapons and shields. The mini-trials have different loot rules.

On top of that, I think account ids factor into seeding because it's pretty common to repeatedly get the same drop from the same kind of encounter if they're not added to a collection. I haven't studied this at all, it's just a guess. There could be other reasons for that.

On the greater topic:

I don't think the rng is that bad in terms of percentages, but it can seem that way because of the sheer number of rng drops in the game necessarily means that we sometimes fall into outlier territory.

I often wondered if there isn't a problem with the game's pseudo random number initialization since random() will give the same sequence of numbers for the same seed value. Whether it's an uninitialized variable, a calculation, using the system clock, etc I can't say but it feels like other times I've run across pseudo random number problems similar to this game's RNG. It could also explain why some players seems to be more affected bad RNG compared to others since any of the items I listed are machine dependent.

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I don’t think much of it is true random rolls. Just look at something like the stickerbook, there are more weapons than armor but the weapons always drop last. There has to be some probability assigned to each type to get what I have experienced.

This is because different types of monsters drop different items.

For example, in overland:

Delves: belts and boots
Public Dungeons: Shoulders, Gloves and Weapons (bosses)
World Bosses: Head, Chest, Legs and Weapons
^ this was a general rule before, I can't say for certain it applies to every zone, but I know it's still generally true from recent experience.

The same goes for dungeons and (conventional) trials with minibosses, bosses and final bosses having different loot tables. Final bosses only drop jewelry, weapons and shields. The mini-trials have different loot rules.

On top of that, I think account ids factor into seeding because it's pretty common to repeatedly get the same drop from the same kind of encounter if they're not added to a collection. I haven't studied this at all, it's just a guess. There could be other reasons for that.

On the greater topic:

I don't think the rng is that bad in terms of percentages, but it can seem that way because of the sheer number of rng drops in the game necessarily means that we sometimes fall into outlier territory.

I often wondered if there isn't a problem with the game's pseudo random number initialization since random() will give the same sequence of numbers for the same seed value. Whether it's an uninitialized variable, a calculation, using the system clock, etc I can't say but it feels like other times I've run across pseudo random number problems similar to this game's RNG. It could also explain why some players seems to be more affected bad RNG compared to others since any of the items I listed are machine dependent.

It was explained here on the forums way way back that supposedly each day, each character is assigned a seed the first time that character logs in each day. How far out the RNG system stretches out that seed I have no idea. But I'm guessing it's pretty long because it was also demonstrated how with the loot table systems, it's conceivable that a player can go an entire day without seeing a favorable loot roll. As well it can also result in a character having incredible loot rolls if all the favorable results are generated early in the seed.

Which is why many players maintain numerous alts. So if a player is looking to farm a specific lead, it behooves them to grab a bunch of cheapo treasure maps and run out with each character until they find one where leads dropping seems a trivial matter within the first 4-5 maps (not too many because you don't want to waste good loot rolls). Then use that character to chase the lead they're on the hunt for.

Some players insist that this is a bunch of hooey. But I use this approach for farming pretty much anything farmable in game, and most of my friends/guildies like to poke fun at how I have uncanny luck. Despite my always explaining that luck is when preparation meets opportunity.

BretonMage wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

I disagree, it can be bad, but if you compare with most MMORPGs, ESO is pretty chill when it comes to grind and RNG.

It definitely used to be terrible before the stickerbook was a thing though.

It depends on what grind you are talking about. The gear grind is much better with transmutes, the stickerbook, and reconstruction. The housing grind, which is the area I am most involved in currently, requires time-consuming harvesting overland for rare mats, stingy low drop rates for furnishing plans in areas that are not base game, and low drop rates for antiquity furnishings, some of which are locked behind IA. You can play for a whole day with not much to show for it.

I don’t know about other MMOs, but ESO used to be better in regards to housing and has gotten much worse. If this is indeed one area that saved the game in Microsoft’s eyes then they need to make it more appealing to players or they will lose more.

Yeah but when it comes to housing we'd have to include trading and market in the discussion, aside from antiquities those are not bound items you are forced to grind yourself, they're necessary to build a good market system within the game, you can try grinding those yourself, or you can straight up buy from other people.

Just think how useless guild traders would be if you could get any motif, furnishing plan or material effortlessly.

I'd be more than happy to buy them, even at elevated prices. Unfortunately there are far too many bound furnishings that can only be sourced through effectively impossible-to-get leads. And if there is practically no chance of getting them, it doesn't provide any incentive to play.

They should make them tradable, or at least increase lead chances; it would be healthier for the game if players had something to look forward to.

Buying this (for housing) is so expensive. I am ALWAYS low on gold on my bank due to that. And considering that in order to resupply me with gold to be able to buy anything meaningful I have to grind, grind, grind for selling, progress is so hard.

PureeEvil wrote: »

The drop problem is really a problem. I have a new account now, and for some reason, the first thing that drops in all the dungeons is heavy armor. The problem is that I've never used heavy armor on this account, and I haven't leveled or invested in any skills. However, it's the first thing that drops for me. All the monster sets that drop are heavy, and I don't need them at all. It takes a lot of time, and when I get to PvP with my new build, I'm already angry.

My advice to ZOS, especially considering the current situation, is to integrate and start training a AI for drops as soon as possible. This will determine that a player who has not upgraded their heavy armor does not need it. Of course, this can be done without a AI, but you need it and should be proud of it.

After all, none of us play TESO for farming.

They wouldn't even need AI for that, tbh. They could just code it so that there's a higher chance for the weight the player is actually using.

PureeEvil wrote: »

The drop problem is really a problem. I have a new account now, and for some reason, the first thing that drops in all the dungeons is heavy armor. The problem is that I've never used heavy armor on this account, and I haven't leveled or invested in any skills. However, it's the first thing that drops for me. All the monster sets that drop are heavy, and I don't need them at all. It takes a lot of time, and when I get to PvP with my new build, I'm already angry.

My advice to ZOS, especially considering the current situation, is to integrate and start training a AI for drops as soon as possible. This will determine that a player who has not upgraded their heavy armor does not need it. Of course, this can be done without a AI, but you need it and should be proud of it.

After all, none of us play TESO for farming.

Gear drops in dungeons are already curated. Each subsequent run through a dungeon increases the chance that you get the pieces you prefer.