Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If anyone jumps into a doomsday machine, it'd probably be Darien.

I still deem it possible that at the end of the story we'll basically see certain changes that happened in this story reverted again.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I really don't think we'll see Vanny's death in this story. I had worried about it earlier, but from the way things are going, I'm guessing not. Plus, the article that started this whole thread was about having fun beating the bad guys, not having a complicated ending that leaves you feeling the victory came at a great price.

So we'll just put Mannimarco back on his slab again? That doesn't sound quite satisfying.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I am curious to see how well this reverse planemeld has worked, and how far it has gone.

I mean, there was already a screenshot in an announcement news article even before the first part of this Season even dropped, which led to my speculation of the Coldharborization of the East of Solstice. I can't find it again right now, but I remember it looked exactly like Coldharbor, even with the usual snow, just with some Argonian pyramids. Of course this picture was staged for the article, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was made at an actual location on the map.

Ah, okay, found it again. Looks a little different than I remembered, but still:



One question: Mor Naril?

Or might that be from one of the Q3 dungeons? The description doesn't sound like that, though. And I think the one that takes place at an Argonian location had no exterior, but I'm not entirely sure about that now.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Vanny says "like Coldharbour," so I expect quite a bit of similarity, but we also don't know how much of the place he's seen. In the first projection chat we have with him on Stirk, his hands are tied behind him; in all the projection chats we have with him on Solstice, they aren't. Makes me wonder again just how much freedom of movement he has over there.

I'm actually wondering now how many locations the East of the map will even have. Are there cities of some kind? How many walled structures are there where you might be able to keep prisoners? Not that Mor Naril might be the one big thing which they also use as a prisoner camp now (whether they want to sacrifice Vanny for reviving/reactivating whatever being or machine there might be, or not). But I truly think that such a walled Argonian pyramid city, Mor Naril or not, would probably be the best location to set up a prisoner camp (also, what else is there even?). It would also explain why Vanny has a certain freedom of movement and could come across other people there. Maybe the Worm Cult just besieged a Stone Nest city? Maybe even the one that one Stone Nest Argonian in Sunport mentions?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess, since we scuppered their plans, they had to improvise. Wormblood does a lot of shouting orders in the Colored Rooms. "Teleport the sarcophagus!" "Prepare the ritual!"

Did he say "teleport"? In any way, it's a pity we never actually saw what's inside the sarcophagus, because I'm very curious now about what's actually left of Mannimarco.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He turns and takes three or four steps, in the direction of his sarcophagus, which is leaning against a wall. Then he's gone, and we're all just standing there.

Any visual effect or does his form basically just fade away?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I would prefer it if it wasn't the total annihilation of Wormblood, but some kind of soul-meld or something interesting. It's possible Mannimarco could have heard Wormblood refer to Farinor while his soul was hovering. The whole set-up was rather strange and rushed.

I suspect we're maybe not even supposed to think about this that much. Wormblood as merely a placeholder with no background story and lore would be sad.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I thought it might also be a narrative trick of sorts--have a character tell us a thing that later turns out to be untrue, but it's not like the character lied, they just didn't know for sure. I mean, it is Raz who tells us Wormblood's gone, and I'm not sure when he became so confident about the inner workings of body-swapping and soul exchanging. And Walks seems pretty sure Wormblood was going to use the gift of death to both resurrect Mannimarco and access Mor Naril. She takes great comfort in the idea that we prevented one of his plans from happening.

The thing is that it doesn't feel believable. Like you, I wondered why they were so confidently saying these things, although they can't know, and at least the more intelligent ones should be aware that they do not know. So the whole thing felt rather strange.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess it's just part of the lore they wanted for the world. Every time in game we encounter the idea of raising dead to fight against the living, we're meant to be shocked by the notion and it's always "the bad guys" who are doing it.

Doesn't really work for me or my main, to be honest. Guess we're too practical thinking. The thing that immediately comes to my mind (if I imagine I was a character in this fictional world) is protecting my brethren, so if I could use fallen enemies to fight in a battle instead of endangering my own people, I'd do that without any hesitation. Basically when it's necessary and serves the protection of yourself, your family, your people. Also, attackers deserve this fate, I don't see a reason for pity. Well, and in case of my main, he might be even a little more unbothered morally. He's not the religious type either, even if he might officially accept the Dunmer Temple, as a traditional institution of his culture. So he respects the priests, accepts the teachings, doesn't offend Tribunal believers/worshippers, might even take part in religious celebrations as a cultural tradition, but I wouldn't really call him pious. Not at all.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Been a few years since I played through Traitor's Vault, but the to best of my memory, the voices sounded just like regular Mannimarco and Vanny. I'd have to play it again to say for sure, particularly as I've recently been listening a lot to current Vanny.

Maybe I'll check Youtube on that later, if I have time. And other scenes with old man Vanny, as I really have no clue how he sounds in English (I'm sure I've heard him in some Twitch stream in the past, but I really can't remember).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Hah, necrodancer: sounds like it should be a personality or costume in the crown store.

A special dancer personality as a reward for finishing Part 2 How may dancing emotes and personalities did they sell in the store this year? Weren't there several different versions? It's like everyone on Solstice is dancing - although we rarely see any npc doing it. Do they even dance at all? Except for some enemies in that one Sanguine dungeon?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

No, the slab was Molag Bal's thing. We'll probably try to contain him somehow, if we can't outright kill him (and I know we can't, but the npcs and our characters don't know that). What that containment looks like, though? Maybe we stuff him into his sarcophagus and bind it with a couple dozen wards.

Can I have that as a furnishing? Of course it should be interactible like, well, the usual house guests. Now, that would be a wonderful quest reward for completing the story, wouldn't it?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder who the floating people are meant to be; they look a little bit like Nocturnal's daedra.

They've been introduced as Voidmothers in Greymoor:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Voidmother
Although it doesn't mean that these creatures absolutely have to be the same - it wouldn't be the first time they reuse a model for something else. Maybe they are just signifying souls of some kind?

Or they might indeed be supposed to be Voidmothers (or other Void creatures), since the Void is related to Sithis, and it is an Argonian ruin. Now if they also mix Sithis into this story somehow (despite it being - if this is Mor Naril - a temple to Molag Bal), who knows what will happen.

We have to keep in mind though that this picture is be entirely staged and not necessarily be what we'll see in game then.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I, too, am curious what's left of Mannimarco's former physical form. Walks downplays any decomposition inquiries, telling us that skilled necromancers could just restore a body if they thought it was important enough, and that for Mannimarco they would. Would they have done that restoration already? Or were they waiting until his soul was back in before doing that?

I personally would have restored it earlier (if possible). Just to ensure the resurrection can be completed quickly, in case of emergency. If Mannimarco left instructions about all this before his death, I think they would have been well-planned and he probably would also have considered such eventualities.

Then again we don't really know who made this plans and whether it all might have been Wormblood's idea alone, who might not be as meticulous (well, we don't know, we never learn much about him).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

To me if feels like a hasty wrapping up/sum up of the situation, given because we needed something there. Although you only hear this stuff if you make a point to talk to the npcs after the quests are over. None of it is part of the quest dialogue. I wonder how many people do talk to the npcs after the quests are done? ZOS must expect people to do so, else they wouldn't write lines like this for the npcs.

I had the impression they've put less efforts in this now than in earlier stories - at least in the latest prologue, at the very end, you can talk to every person present, but they're all giving the exact same reply, same wording, too. Maybe they indeed think people aren't making use of that much anyway? Not sure whether it would be technically possible to see how many people triggered a dialogue (or also which dialogue options they chose, which would be especially interesting now for future development of the dialogue option feature)?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm not sure necromancy is really all that practical, in a general sense. Given that its not a widespread practice, how likely it is that you'll have a necromancer on hand to effectively and efficiently raise those dead attackers?

Without the cultural taboo, there would certainly be more of them serving their homeland's forces.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I understand for your character, who can be both a necromancer and a sorcerer now, it'd be no consideration at all

I still haven't subclassed yet, by the way. Still wondering which lines to throw out in favor for the new ones.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also don't think pity is the driving reason behind anti-necromancy sentiment. I think it's all moral/religious.

Now that would be worth a longer examination: The moral teachings of all Tamrielic cultures (and beyond) about death and life force, piety, and all that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't know how many, but the one from the carnival crate has been really popular. I see so many people with that personality on, everywhere I go. Quite a few wear the costume, too, but far more use the personality, and their characters are never still. I can't recall that I've seen any npc doing that dance; certainly not in Sunport.

It's strange as it's designed to fit this tropical location so much, but then it's not actually seen in game, as in organically part of the place, used by npcs, etc.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

These supposed plans Mannimarco left behind just in case...I still have a hard time believing they would have been that detailed, or that far-seeing.

Well, even mere commoners often think about what should happen to them after their death, so a brilliant necromancer would certainly also have plans for that case, even though these plans might probably look a little different.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But, you know, he could have come across Solstice a long time ago and factored it into his plans.

I wasn't thinking about the location so much, more about the resurrection ritual itself. But yes, if there's a certain remarkable energy source that could be useful to him, he surely could have learned about it earlier. Still wondering whether he might have personal ties to that island, though, or whether it might really just have been a place he read about in some old tome.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They probably have ways of tracking which dialogue options get chosen for the new system, so they can monitor it and such. At least, that makes sense to me. They do track all sorts of data, but how granular it gets I don't know.

If they really do, I truly hope they won't draw the wrong conclusions. I know many people tried out a dialogue option although they actually didn't like it (sometimes even found it completely unplausible or unfitting), just to see what happens. If they interpret that as "People liked that, we should implement more of these", - well.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

To me it doesn't really fit with the game. But usually we do see the costumes around and about, if not the personalities.

Costumes - yes. But personalities rarely, emotes also not often, skins basically never, and we also rarely see some pets and mounts in what would be their natural habitat, unless they were part of the zone earlier and get added to the store sometime later (and yes, I know they've been adding some more unusual mounts to stables lately). In case of mounts and pets I'm actually glad about it, since the flashy effects of most store creatures annoy me.

As for the dancing and feather costumes - it feels out of place to me basically because we never see it anywhere else. It's not like we saw some, for example, Argonian ceremony where they were used, or some special festivity where we could have seen these things and maybe already participated in the dancing in a quest. Then you could say, okay, that's part of the island's culture, fine, if people liked that quest, let them have that costumes and dances to use outside that quest, too.

Syldras wrote: »

So, as I announced, I watched a few videos of Vanny and Mannimarco now, both as old men and as what ever age they were on Artaeum, both in English, and in German to refresh my memory.

In comparison between the English voice acting and the German localization, I'd say old Vanny sounds older and grumpier in German, a tiny bit mumbly, too. Mannimarco, on the other hand, has a really clear and sharp voice in German, very pronounced, always with a haughty and slightly scornful undertone. There's a certain nonchalance, too, at least when he's in a good mood. He's quite charismatic.

When he was younger, he might have sounded a little less scornful, but his voice didn't change tone a lot. Young Vanny on the other hand seems much more shy, nervous and generally emotional compared to later. His voice also sounds a little higher, although I'd attribute that to his general nervousness. Honestly, he sounds almost a little dorky in some moments. From the German voice acting, I'd say Mannimarco was a young adult (early to mid 20's) on Artaeum and Vanny probably in his teens, about 16 or 17 or so maybe. In English they just both sound like adult men. It's interesting how much that influences the whole impression one gets, but not unexpected, of course.

Syldras wrote: »

Oh, and at the ending of the main story, Mannimarco's corpse is intact (unless, maybe, you killed him with some elemental damage, not sure about that - in any way, he just drops dead like the average human or mer enemy in this game) - and then, Molag Bal gets his soul, but the corpse seems to remain there. Unless they've changed something meanwhile; the videos were already almost a decade old.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Plans in case of his death I understand. Secret heir who sets up an island stronghold protected by a wall of souls? That's stretching credibility a little far, but ok, sure. We need a story, after all. It's just so much infrastructure and power for a back-up plan.

I think something like "In case I die, preserve my body and go fetch artifact x from location y" might be plausible. Everything beyond that? Not so much. Though we still don't know how the relation between Mannimarco and Wormblood even looked like. If they're indeed related somehow, maybe they shared more info.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It would be a nice touch to tie the cosmetics in with the cultures in the game where appropriate. Seems like cosmetics, or at least the costume section of them, usually are available after they've shown up in the game. Like Vanny's new robes, or some of the costumes you see around on npcs in cities (like the Kinlord Attire) . I don't think I've seen the dancer costume anywhere.

It's strange how much the items offered in the store seem like they're really not a part of the fictional world we see. Or how often they might use a theme that does exist in the world, and then just slap it on all kinds of mounts, no matter the plausibility. Even if we take a more mundane example: Why would there be a Mages Guild Order of the Lamp Riding Vvardvark? The Vvardvark is a Telvanni creation, a magical project by Magister Varkenel. Of course Varkenel might just sell them to everyone who asks, but why would he?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That is interesting! That also kind of shows what an actor brings to a role compared to how a role is written.

Sometimes I also wonder how much they might take cultural differences into consideration. Media traditions might differ, the idea how certain "roles" behave and speak might differ. The idea about how to portray certain character traits or emotional states may also differ.

Azandar is also such a case, I guess. The way his age is portrayed. In German he uses slightly antiquated phrases so often, but in a realistic, believable way. His style of speech really reminds me a lot of quite some older people I know or knew in real life.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Next time I do the Sancre Tor quest, I'll have to remember to specifically look for his corpse. Still strikes me as a little odd that we would have just left it there, but then I guess it would have been weird to have carried it out. People don't typically give their enemies any kind of burial rites, after all.

Depends on culture and ideas of honor, I guess. Well, to be honest, I would have taken him with me and preserved him, just in case. One never knows what the body of a powerful necromancer might be useful for some day. Also he'd probably be a rather rare specimen for a collection of magical curiosities.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm thinking what some of those letters might look like. "Nephew, it occurs to me that there might come a time when I require you to summon my soul back to my body. If such a situation were to arise, I think we had best approach it thusly...."

Like that, but in verse. And it's extra amusing if Wormblood is actually a little dense and struggles with instructions if they're not worded very clearly.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But in reality I'm guessing they didn't put that much thought behind it; it was more of a "this would be cool" situation. Does the Vvardvark mount have any flavor text that explains it? (I'm not familiar with this particular mount.)

I have the same suspicion. And I've checked the flavor text for the Riding Vvardvark again:
"Look at that tongue! You can thank Spellwright Domavas for these bug-eating beauties, expanding on Magister Varkenel's work. I hear he first tried to give them feathers, failed, then came up with this gorgeous steed."—Cidius Sosia, Necrom Stablemaster
So, okay, Domavas is just a Spellwright (same rank as Revus, by the way), he might be in need of money But still: Would he sell to the Mages Guild? The flavor text for the Order of the Lamp Vvardvark doesn't say much:
Though not the most fearsome mounts, these recent additions to the Lamp Knight stable are treasured for their loyalty, surefootedness, and tracking skills. Some mages claim they can smell magicka, making them invaluable to the Order of the Lamp.
Not even a source for the quote, sadly. And what exactly did the Order of the Lamp do before Riding Vvardvarks existed?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

When they do the localization, do they hire it out to local studios to record and find the voice actors? That could factor in to how the actors are given direction for the voice lines.

There are local agencies for localization and voice acting (I even knew once which one they used for Oblivion and Skyrim back then). But how exactly the process looks like and who then actually chooses the voice actors - I have no clue. What's remarkable is that for ESO they chose very renowned ones in German for the first time, people who usually did work for the German versions of big Hollywood movies. I'm not saying they were better than the ones for the older games (or that those were worse), but for ESO they seemed to care very much to be able to present voices that people would recognize from somewhere else, and names they might have already heard of.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm sure there is some cultural differences in the readings. It would be strange if there weren't.

That reminds me that in one localization of Skyrim, the bards don't sing. Spanish it was, I think.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That would explain why things went sideways for him at the end, eh? From the little we saw of him, he didn't strike me as dense, precisely.

Not really, but we also didn't talk to him much, did we? Even the most dense person could memorize a few smart-sounding sentences And who knows how many advisors he might have!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If he was in need of money, why wouldn't he sell to the Mages Guild? Does everyone in House Telvanni hate the Mages Guild?

It doesn't matter if every single Telvanni hates them, it's enough if a few very powerful ones don't approve and a certain social stigma might arise to do so. Although I by far don't have the impression that the opponency is already as bad right now as it is later in the Third Era.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But maybe he didn't. Maybe he sold to someone else who sold to the Mages Guild.

Repeatedly? It does sound like the Mages Guild owns more than one. I know, for breeding, you'd only need two - but I don't think any random non-Telvanni could breed Vvardvark steeds!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I assume the Order of the Lamp just rode regular horses before they got these magicka sniffing Vvardvarks. It said they were a recent addition to the stable, implying the stable already existed and housed other mounts.

Well, it would be expected for knights to have some kind of mounts. They surely can't be piggybacking each other into battle.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Some of the voice actors for the English language version were also rather famous screen actors, like for Ayrenn, Emeric, and Jorunn.

Did they do that for the English versions of the other TES games before, in particular for Skyrim?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

No, we didn't talk to him much, but when we did, he came across as the usual condescending Altmer type. Well, whatever his level of intelligence, it was all for naught when uncle Mannimarco came roaring back to life.

Would "uncle" even be plausible, age-wise? Ah, I don't know. In any way it's strange to present someone to us as a powerful and possibly lichified necromancer while never had anyone ever heard of or written about him before.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Why not? Merchants sell to the same customer repeatedly. The creator of the riding Vvardvark might have not wanted to head up the selling part of it, so perhaps he sold the Vvardvarks in bulk to someone who then sold them at market for a mark-up, and the Order of the Lamp came along and bought up a few.

With rare creatures, there's the risk if you sell too many of them, someone else might destroy your monopoly as a breeder. But then, we probably don't have to worry in this case, as I've never seen anyone - except for myself - owning a Vvardvark steed anyway. Not even Vanny. Maybe people are still waiting for the exploding, jingling, fire-spitting version made of green jelly pudding.

Syldras wrote: »

I looked at this picture again...
https://esosslfiles-a.akamaihd.net/ape/uploads/2025/04/70c23dd18906913948271301d4e7a590.jpg
...and wondered whether that tower- or spire-like structure in the background is typical for Argonian architecture or whether we see some mix between Argonian and Daedric here (also, that facade with all those lights might look a little unusual?). If so, that would be another hint on this possibly being Mor Naril. Then again, I really don't want to judge since I'm no expert on Argonian architecture.

Now some weird random thought crossed my head whether we might see those dances and feather dresses we talked about earlier in Part 2 of the story. So they would still show up somewhere in the chapter's story then. Possibly.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think they're related at all or, if they are, only distantly. I was just using 'uncle' and 'nephew' because that character article hinted at it, and also because sometimes people who aren't related by blood use the 'uncle' or 'aunt' signifier for close friends of their parents. Not that I think that would be the case here, either, but anyway it was just a bit of fun to think of them calling each other that.

Depending on the age gap, it might rather be "grandpa" Well, we don't know. In any way, it's fun to imagine - and it's what happens if you don't get actual reliable info.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

How odd it would be to see Argonians decked out in dancing gear while their lands turned to Coldharbour around them. A striking visual.

Well, everything's a little different on Solstice, no? Who knows what they worship over there on the Eastern side. Maybe they're happy about the Planemeld. Or the daedra make them dance. Or Mannimarco, if he's bored.

Or maybe they celebrate because they interpret the Planemeld as a different sign by one of their own gods. Realistically, a remote tribe would not necessarily understand what's happening and interpret it in their own way. We don't really had that in ESO so far, did we? I can't remember right now.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Now I want to call Mannimarco "grandpa" just to see the reaction.

I'd expect some scornful insult. Because that's what you usually get if you anger him.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Considering how isolated the island is meant to be according to lore, it does make me wonder how much they knew about the Worm Cult before we got there and explained it all to them. The cultists started showing up (by fleet, apparently), but did they explain themselves? "Hey, we're the Worm Cult. We're here to set up a new base of operations."

It's generally a very interesting line of thought. Imagine the Argonians of some remote tribe somewhere in the jungle might not even see anything of the Worm Cult at all (we don't know how secretive they behave over there), just see the sky darkens, there's a change, the air is different, it gets colder - they might interpret it as some prophecy from old writings (or possibly an oral tradition), like the return of Sithis, or whatever fits to their religion, and then start what ever is supposed to be done traditionally in that situation, be it appeasement rituals or celebrations. How interesting would that be. And it would give us not only an interesting situation (and maybe "cool" visuals for those who focus on that), but new Argonian lore.

Syldras wrote: »

Then again, I'm not sure whether some people who live in today's globalized world, where you can just travel everywhere by car, train or plane, can chat with people from all over the planet in real time, and have news from all parts of the world on tv every day, might misinterpret this situation as a depiction of the native Argonians being "dumb". So they might find it offensive.

Syldras wrote: »

Although there's nothing dumb about this at all; in former times, and it's still a game set in a fictional, medieval-ish past, living at a very remote place meant you didn't really know what was going on elsewhere. There would be a lot of things you've never seen because there's no media at all, many things you might have never heard of, and info or rumours would only spread if, maybe one day, some traveller passed by somehow (most often it were merchants).

Syldras wrote: »

I'd honestly love if Nirn would feel less "globalized". Tamriel feels just small if info travels that fast and you see the same people everywhere. I'm aware of course that there's magic, portal magic especially, but it still feels a little strange how easy it seems to be for people and info to travel in this world. Also, the average person should not be able to use wayshrines by lore, and how many would even be able to open a portal or pay a mage for that? It's not like a teleportation service by the Mages Guild already exists at this point. Add to that travel costs; would the average farmer or craftsman be able to afford travelling to who knows where?

Syldras wrote: »

The base game might have still considered these things more; I can remember there's a diary somewhere on Auridon where someone wrote he heard so much about the Dunmer, he'd really love to meet one and have a chat one day, or even to travel abroad sometime in the future, after the war. This was beautiful, actually, because it wasn't just some constructed "yeah, we're all fine and tolerant" story (as a base premise, without explanations), but it actually showed that someone is just curious about the world and is motivated by that to interact with and learn about the other cultures "out there", to see what's beyond his tiny home village.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I've wondered before just how fast news is meant to realistically travel in Tamriel. I know from having found letters strewn about that some sort of postal or courier service exists, but I don't know how fast or efficient it might be. Most likely it's a chance-met kind of thing. Someone you know is traveling by a village where you want a letter sent, and so you ask them to deliver it for you.

I mean, they seem to have courier services, I think? But they would certainly be costly and their offices only available in big cities. And then another aspect is how well trade routes are established. If there's a merchant regularly travelling from, let's say, Riften to Nimalten, it would probably not be hard for them to take letters with them on that trip. Or if there's even passenger transport by cart. In the real world, it was very much related: Carriages would drive a certain route according to a schedule, they would make stops at post houses on the route where couriers and horses would get food and rest, passengers could get on or off the cart, letters intended for that place were handed out and new letters accepted, etc. My great-grandfather owned such a place. Well, actually he was a farmer and a horse breeder before that, but when a post house was planned for that town (only a small town, really, but on route between two bigger cities - and if they're several days apart, horses and riders/drivers do need rest inbetween) and they searched for someone to operate it, preferably someone who has experience in horse care, he gladly accepted. The house became his and since the postal service was governmental, the job was well-paid, too.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yet that doesn't track with how everyone on the continent seems to know of my exploits and, even more strange, know what I look like so they can match the deeds to the face and casually bring it up to me as I'm passing by.

Yeah, that's extremely strange. I see they wanted to include that to have the deeds the player character has accomplished also be reflected in the world in general, but it raises a few questions, yes. I prefer more generally worded gossip, even if it's related to something we did.

What might also make it a little weirder is that these lines are related to an npc's race, I think, not location? So every Altmer, even one living in Wayrest, would know about the things you did in Torinaan and tell you about it. It would be better if it was indeed limited to location, so, for example, only the people in Auridon would talk about it, no matter their race.

Now I wonder if this issue might be a little related to One Tamriel and "play in any order", because before that, you were indeed spending all your time on Auridon first, then slowly progress through the Bosmer regions, etc, and it would really take a long time until you ever saw a remote location, so until you might hear such rumours somewhere else, weeks and months of game time would have passed, which makes it more realistic for rumours to travel to farther locations.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The way I view it is that on the continent, each major settlement has a mages guild, and from all I've seen, mages are pretty good with portals and love to gossip. So they hop from guild to guild, spreading news, and so the cities and larger towns are kept fairly up to date with the world goings-on. Any port town would probably have a good source of information, too, with all the people coming and going at the docks.
However, when it comes to the more rural areas, people should not know as much as they do. Not only would a farmer likely not be able to pay a mage for a portal, they wouldn't really have the time to travel. If a craftsman wanted to travel, they would be more likely to make use of a cart, so they could bring any supplies and equipment with them, or their wares if they were also trying to sell. All those merchants wandering the roads of Tamriel would be their best news source, and who knows how often they would come around or how old their information might be by the time they shared it.

This makes me think it's actually a pity that these travelling merchants don't have any other function beyond taking your clutter while you're doing overland questing. Wouldn't be bad if they could actually provide a bit lore on the region, rumours, including rumours that could trigger a quest.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

People on Solstice knowing as much as they do is a bit bothersome to me, because the place was presented to us as isolated. The mages guild didn't have a presence there until the Stirk Fellowship showed up, so that form of communication was out. The place was supposedly really hard to reach by ship, so common Tamriel tales shouldn't have reached them. Perhaps they would have heard of big events like the Three Banners War or the Planemeld, via the Maomer, if the Maomer had any interest in spreading information that didn't really touch them at all. I dunno. It's really a conundrum of an island.
You know, it just occurred to me: maybe this is why the npcs in Sunport are silent. They can't have the usual proximity lines about the coral heart and the moon-hallowed and Duke Sebastian's strange illness and so forth, because they shouldn't, by rights, know anything about it. They are silent to comply with lore!

It does bother me that it's all so contradictive. This island is so remote and mysterious and the loading screen text has something about people actively having avoided it before the Stirk Fellowship came because there were even rumours it was cursed, etc. And still you seem to have people of all races there, huge religious tolerance, and what not. It just doesn't feel like some solitary, barely known island at all. It's like that's just some label slapped on it because it sounds interesting, but then everything else isn't written accordingly, to portray such a place in a believable way. I've come across more reclusive and mysterious villages in Upper Bavaria. No, seriously, it was always great fun (strangely, since I'm actually not so much of a social person) to just go into some village's tavern in the evening - you'd actually have elderly people flocking around you in no time, asking where you're from and what you're looking for there - in a friendly, genuinely curious way. They also gave awesome tips quite often, of places you won't find in any travel guide.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

There's also some conversation in Davon's Watch among some npcs, where one of them repeats some outlandish gossip they heard about Covenant soldiers, and another, who has happened to travel and actual meet some, reacts like one might to such strange claims and refutes them. That kind of sets the stage for what average people tend to know in this world.

I've been on Bleakrock again yesterday, in that one house where you start basically the whole game after having fled from Coldharbor for the first time at the tutorial's end. Already at that one location you come across 5 lorebooks, and they do invoke that feeling you're really at some remote place surrounded by people who don't know much else. There's Mathor's Journal:
"Saw a strange light out over the water last night. I've seen the auroras do some strange things, but never anything quite like this. Corpses washed up on shore. They were dressed strangely, as if they were from far-off lands. I have no idea where they came from."
And Rana's Log (Rana is a Dunmeri Pact commander who was transfered to Bleakrock for disciplinary reasons after she made a severe mistake):
"The lights in the sky have caused a panic in town. We all know there are powers at work in Nirn. Most of these folk haven't so much as spoken with a mage. How can they understand something like mystical lights in the sky?"
Apart from telling you a lot about the place where you resurfaced, it also works well in inducing curiosity, I think. If you're new to the game, it makes you wonder how other places look like.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

A post system like that would make sense for the world, and we do have the traveling carts and such parked at the capitals. True, we never see any on the road, exactly, like we see the merchants. Mostly, if a cart has taken to the road, it's broken down somewhere or attacked. But I'm willing to believe some of them make it to their destination, and carry letters.

One thing I often thought when I began playing ESO, coming from the singleplayer TES games, was that the world feels less lively. I mean, of course you have real people running around, but the npcs seem to have a much more static behaviour than in the singleplayer games. A few walk around town and might talk to others a bit, but it did feel more artificial to me somehow. Not even sure why. I just remember that feeling right now and how I wondered what made the difference.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, some of them sell those antique map leads for the antiquity system. So, there's that.

The travelling merchants? I thought it was only tavern owners?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder why they didn't integrate the rumor system into the world, like they had in Skyrim. You get it to some extent, when you find a note or something that talks about a delve you haven't yet discovered, and then it shows up on your map, but if you aren't the type who makes a habit of reading the private correspondence of others, you might never find out about these places in this way.

I mean, you can still come across them by just exploring the map yourself. But I don't think it's bad to give people different ways to learn of things - dialogues, random notes lying around somewhere, bookshelves, or leaflets pinned at some fence somewhere overland.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Just want to say I like your Bavaria story!

I always enjoyed those travels. The tavern culture there was truly interesting. It's unusual compared to the part of the country where I live. I don't think I ever sat at a table with complete strangers here, neither would random people here care much what you do and where you're from. Well, maybe in some tiny villages; there, it might happen. But probably not as often. Of course if you prefer being ignored and left alone, it's awesome here, but during travels, talking to people certainly is helpful, especially if you're interested in less known local places.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Those are indeed some very nice touches that make the world seem lived in and real. I think having more writing like that in Solstice--the inhabitants wondering about the wall and the strange recent arrivals (either the Worm Cult or the Stirk Fellowship) would have helped.

I've started replaying the main quest now - not the zone stories, just the questline about the Companions (and I'll also do the Mages Guild and Fighters Guild quests somewhere inbetween) and it so far confirmed my memory that the writing back then was more to my taste. The dialogues seemed more in-depth, the wording more artful somehow - not with every character, of course, but with characters where it fits (like the Prophet, or Abnur Tharn, for example). The whole narrative style seems more complex than what we got the past few years. I didn't have to ask weird questions yet either, and dialogues are often written like you actually contribute facts to the discussed topic, too, and you come to a conclusion together with the npc you're having the conversation with - instead of being the a passive figure everything gets explained to, while asking simple questions at most.

As for the scope of quests, since we discussed that in the other thread, I think, I'd say each quest takes about half an hour. Maybe even a bit more if you explore places a bit more. How many quests are there? 13, I think? So that questline alone would take about 6,5 hours (normally, it would probably feel much longer, though, since the quests only get triggered when you reach a certain level, so if you play the questline with a fresh character, you'd have to do zone quests or other quests inbetween to progress - I'm playing on a level 43 character right now, so that doesn't apply in this case). Makes me wonder now whether the whole (Part 1 and 2) main quest on Solstice will have about the same length.

Ah yes, since you wondered what role Mannimarco played with the Companions: He was Varen's "closest advisor" - as for why: Who knows. But from the flashback scene they must surely have known that he was a necromancer. He already carried the Staff of Worms and that looks... well. It would have made me suspicious, you know? It's also a bit funny how he's always referred to as "Mannimarco the Traitor" - I truly hope he didn't have that epithet back then, as then the decision to hire him would have been a little ill-thoughtout. Maybe. Makes me wonder, too, if now, since I'm supposed to replace him now, I should take on that role, too? Or is that a misunderstanding?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think part of it might be that some of the npcs you see around, who may move around the town/area, you can't directly interact with. I think in the single player games they didn't have as many "window dressing" npcs. But my memory could be very faulty; it's been years since I played any of the single player games.

It was taken to the extreme in Oblivion, where npcs would have a whole daily schedule assigned to them (and not just daily, I think there was some guy who even had a different schedule for each day of the week and would even travel from town to town) and sometimes walk around long distances to do whatever they were supposed to do. And then they had that "interact with items in the proximity" thing which sometimes made them just feel hungry (I guess) and grab some foodstuff, and well, in case that foodstuff wasn't theirs, some other npc would yell "Thief!" and it could end with murder. It was sometimes truly strange, but also... well, surprising, in a way. In a positive way, I guess. Even if it led to chaos sometimes, it was somehow impressive, and I sometimes wonder whether we'll ever see something like that again - maybe with a few rules for uncriminal, socially acceptable behavior weaved in to avoid unnecessary deaths.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Right, I know you can eventually discover everything on the map just by running into it. I was musing more on the rumor system, and having npcs have a more active role in filling out your map or guiding you to places. Just for immersion's sake, not because these places would be otherwise undiscoverable. The notes you read that lead to delves are a nice way to do it, because they don't have a glaring quest marker over them like some leaflets out in the wild. You just read a thing, and then you know something more about the world. I like that kind of thing in my rpgs.

I think I'd generally like it if they vary the quest starters a bit more, no matter whether it's people, documents, items or whatever. The less formulaic a quest feels, the better. I also like if something surprising happens or even if there's some kind of minigame or puzzle inbetween (if it's well-designed, of course, and not too strict on timing, so it doesn't get frustrating - although I don't think I ever was annoyed with any of ESO's puzzles so far, of course including the more complex ones of the early years). The more variety, the better, really. The bantam guar quest in the current zone was fun because of such aspects - even if, actually, not that much happened in it. But the way it was designed was amusing, it was something different for once, beyond the ordinary, and I also liked the specific humour somehow.

While we're at quest starters: I think there should be a more differentiated color system for quest markers (or maybe a way to enable and disable markers for entire dlcs or chapters, so one can easily decide which content one doesn't want to see/play yet - for example because a different chapter or dlc comes first in the story arc). I got into the Mages Guild during the base game main quest today, and it's utterly chaotic. Valaste wants something, there's another guy on the lower level, and I think I also saw something somewhere on the upper one, and then there's Abnur Tharn whom I actually should meet, but not even on half of the way to him, I already heard Vanny yelling, which is the prologue for Summerset, I think? Now if a new player would accept his quest, just because he is the most vocal person in that building, or because they know from lore that he's important somehow, they don't get a real hint on what his quest even is for (I think in the quest log it also only shows under "prologues"? Haven't tested it yet). So someone with no clue might totally mess up the story order and get into that content before having started Morrowind or CWC. And even worse of course that every single time I enter town, I hear the annoying prince (It was the prince, right? It's not his time yet, so I completely block him out mentally) yell for guildmaster Merric who isn't even guildmaster yet in this playthrough because I haven't touched any guild quest yet at all with this player character. I think there really should be some way to sort the chaos; if a new player enters a building and there are 5 different quest markers for all kinds of different content, mistakes in order will happen, and those do have a negative impact on the narrational experience.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Does it have anything to do with regional cultural habits? I know over here, some parts of the country are known to be more friendly than other parts--just in a general interacting with strangers way.

I wouldn't even say it's about friendliness or unfriendliness. More like there are regionally different habits and also mentalities, also including how appropriate or not it is to talk to random people (what's considered genuine friendly interest in one place could be perceived as being nosy in another). And of course it shows more in small villages than in big cities that have a big fluctuation of people. The more remote places just have kept their peculiarities - in a positive way. What I learned over the years is that if you're just friendly and show real interest in a place, most people will love to show you around or give you tips, because they're proud of their village or region. More than once people unlocked some historical building just for me to have a look inside (Strangest experience so far: Climbing a belltower over centuries old wooden ladders that got ever smaller and steeper - and then the bells were actually ringing and the whole tower was shaking; my plan was to get to the roof hatch, open it, and take photos of the surroundings... I had asked before whether I'm truly allowed to, and had been told if I manage to climb up to that point, I can do whatever I like).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Pretty sure they don't want you to be Mannimarco the Second.

But I'm supposed to be the replacement traitor! Am I not? I thought since the last traitor left, they'd need a new one.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, the main quest isn't level-gated these days. You get one right after the other, no matter what your level is. Makes it seem kind of nagging, and also kind of disconnected from the "I need time to figure this out" narrative they give you at the end of certain quests.

Ah, okay. I thought it was because my character is already above level 40. It's strange, though, I'm basically running back and forth between the daedric ruin where that troupe lives in now and Davon's Watch, because only getting to Davon's Watch will trigger the projection of the Prophet to show up to tell me I should get back to the daedric ruin. You just notice it was once designed differently.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That sounds pretty cool, to have npcs that active and with varied routines. I even like the idea that some of them might be thieves. I mean, I know there are npc thieves in ESO, but they don't wander the markets and casually filch lunch from someone. They tend to stay in their refuges below ground.

The main problem was that there weren't just some thieves, but that the npc's behavior was so random it didn't take the justice system into consideration at all. I guess it was just rng if they would interact with things they walk by or not - whether they'd talk to someone, sit down on a chair, or just grab something and steal it, causing chaos. I think I read they gave up on that system later because of these problems, although I honestly think it wasn't bad at all, it would have just needed a bit of refinement, such as giving npcs a moral stance, marking actions that would count as criminal as such, so moral npcs would avoid them, and maybe even giving npcs more personal preferences when it comes to behavior beyond that. Well, we'll see what we get in TES6 - I honestly hope it will be an AI system that really makes the world feel alive.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You do get the prologue pop-up every time you accept a prologue, warning you it's a prologue quest that will take you far away.

Really? I took Vanny's quest earlier just out of curiosity, and while it does show up in the prologue category of the quest log, I don't think I saw any pop-up.

Syldras wrote: »

But at least I learned that Vanny seems to appreciate poetic phrasing and that he had plans to portal to Alinor to get something to eat that his underdeveloped oversensitive Altmer stomach can tolerate. (And since he seems to be able to just randomly portal around - in case this wasn't meant to be a joke - of course it leads to the question once more where he actually lives. Well, if he has an abode, that is. If that's the case, I'd honestly want to see it some day and have a look at his personal notes that are not meant to be read by anyone else.)

Also, it's a pity the medaillon to summon him doesn't actually work outside the intended quest - otherwise I would probably... well... now I think about what I did to poor Haskill back in Oblivion who I could summon by spell at any time, everywhere. Although I would never be that mean to Vanny, of course.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I really do think Prince Azah is poorly placed for starting the Seasons of the Worm Cult prologue, especially since it really is intended as a sequel, and it doesn't make a lot of sense if you haven't done the main quest in the base game as well as the fighters guild quest line. I would think putting him in the fighters guild building in the later zones would have been better, but since he's the quest guy to lead people into the new stuff, I guess he needs to be front and center.

Don't most people pick up new chapter/dlc quests over the UI anyway? Then you get a quest marker and the actual npc could be where ever, you would be able to find them. No need for them to yell at you at the city gate.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Reminds me of a tower I once climbed in Oxford (for the view) with narrow, spiraling steps (though these were stone), no guard rail, and just a bit of rope for a handrail. The tower thankfully wasn't shaking, but a couple times I did wonder how many people had slipped and fallen on these steps over the centuries. This, however, was a tower open to the public--no special permission needed.
It's true you can learn a lot from the locals of a place when you travel, things that wouldn't necessarily show up in a guide book.

One thing I always wonder about, when getting to a really remote location or getting some place unlocked to explore, is how much time might have passed since a person had been there the last time.

Anyway, the main reason I was bringing up these anecdotes was that I had been thinking that I'd actually love to get a similar feeling, just from the atmosphere, in a game like ESO. It would fit and help with immersion because it would feel more natural. Like, if you enter a tavern, why wouldn't townsfolk approach you and ask who you are and what you're doing there? Or why can't we just walk up to someone in a town where we just arrived and ask them whether anyone needs help here, or tell them that we seek for a job to earn a bit of gold? You know, without huge excitement, without people yelling and running and screeching about some horrible emergency; of course those situations do also make sense, but what's with tasks beyond that? There could be more of those. I just want to get more of that feeling that you're a traveller just exploring - not being rushed from one emergency here to another emergency there (and often by some authority). I honestly liked that in Skyrim you could even just help someone working on the field and get a bit of money for the vegetables you harvested, or for firewood. It might not be much, but it adds to the realism of a medieval society. I truly don't need to be the great superpowered hero ceasing world-ending threats all the time.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I mean, if you really want to, go ahead. They probably won't notice anything is amiss until too late.

But first I have to find Mannimarco's "most secret documents" that, for unknown reasons, are stored in a random cave in Deshaan. I don't know; if I had a castle, I'd probably rather keep them there in my private quarters, and set up lots of guards patroling the whole thing?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's funny how far you have to go (relatively) to trigger the projection in Stonefalls versus Auridon, where you take a couple steps outside the cave and it shows up. The Auridon cave is so close to Vulkhel Guard I kind of wonder why the Prophet didn't just take rooms at the inn in town. It's not like anyone would have known who he was.

In case of Stonefalls, it's extremely weird. I don't know how often I drove my Dwemer car from the Harborage to Davon's Watch just to get yelled to return to the Harborage upon arrival (then taking the wayshrine directly back to the Harborage) yesterday. At least there are some treasure chests on that route, but still...

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe those kind of checks were beyond the scope of the program they had at the time. In Skryim the npcs still had schedules and would walk from place to place at appropriate times. Don't recall any thieving by npcs, though.

I guess it also makes a difference that time of day doesn't matter in ESO at all - stores don't close at night, people don't go to sleep, etc. Of course I get that it has to be like this with an MMO where you can't just skip hours of game time by waiting, because it has to be the same for everyone, but I do think it has an impact on the atmosphere of the world.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I swear, you're worse than Mannimarco in wanting to make Vanny your thrall.

At least I would keep him well-maintained

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If I remember correctly, he was a bit annoyed with us making him delay his trip to Alinor to get good food. So many of my characters have not done that prologue, and so many times have I heard his, "You there! We have much to discuss, you and I!" from across the guild. Of course, it's hunger making him so fractious, I realize.

And I noticed that he somehow comes across as friendlier than I remembered him. Makes me wonder whether they re-recorded his voice lines at some point to make him sound less grumpy - or my personal view about friendliness changed over the last decade.

I also saw him riding the lightning, I think (at least that might be one interpretation) Couldn't remember that as well.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Since he can portal anywhere, at any time, his house might not be in Tamriel. It might be in one of those other lands he wandered about in for that century he was gone.

Maybe he lives among the Sloads, disguised as one of them!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Probably they do. I often end up doing it that way, because I'm not sure where ZOS decided to place the npc anyway. I had rather come across them in the game, so I don't think I'd like it if they relegated all new dlc quest starters to the store.

Oh, I agree with that, but I also think that something has to be done so you don't have dozens of quest givers yelling at you once you enter a town. It's truly a bit too much on characters that haven't quested much yet - or new characters who haven't quested yet at all.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That would be very nice, I agree, and make for a more realistic and lived in world. It's probably more work to make it that way, and perhaps wouldn't fit the play style of some. I get the feeling people don't like to hunt for quests; they want to know if someone has work for them or not.

I think it will never be possibly to satisfy everyone; there will always be people who complain about one thing or another. There are surely also people who hate the calmer quests that include less fighting and more dialogue and puzzles and such non-combat things.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, considering how easily we infiltrated his castle, they probably wouldn't have been any safer there than in the various caves he left them in. He at least had the foresight to spread them out over three zones: Deshaan, Grahtwood, and Stormhaven.

Strictly seen, those have to be 3 identical copies each of those secret documents, which makes it even stranger.

Syldras wrote: »

Anyway; it's already over for him now. The fight was easier than I remembered, even if this character hasn't even reached level 50 yet (he's an arcanist, though, so he just mows everything down with his laser). I'm progressing through the quest rather fast (while reading everything and listening to dialogues - haven't played the main quest for years before this). Oh, and Mannimarco's corpse was retrieved by Molag Bal! They must have changed that since I saw a video from years ago a few days ago, and there, his body remained (while Molag Bal only took his soul) - but now, it was entirely gone. Which makes it even more mysterious what might have happened to it afterwards.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Technically, we don't know that Mannimarco doesn't. If, in fact, he keeps him at all.

Well, that would be even more rude - to steal a corpse and then just dispose of it!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You always go for the weirdest choice!

No, the weirdest choice would be if I had said he lives on one of the moons after his marriage to an Alfiq. Or maybe in the crater of Red Mountain, using Dagoth Ur's home as long as he's still sleeping.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I have a little more respect for Vanny than to think he'd hobnob with disgusting Sloads, let alone pretend to be one.

I think he might disguise himself as a Sload quite well. He seems to be a little short for an Altmer, after all!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They leave the hidden things for the scavenger hunts in later chapters (Orsinium museum, Vvardenfell tombs, Summerset relics, Elsweyr tapestry, and so forth).

They've also seem to have given up on those, or did I miss something?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's just wise to have back-up copies of all important documents.

In random caves? They weren't even hidden there.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If Molag Bal took his corpse as well as his soul, that's just greedy. I assume the Worm Cultists got it back from him somehow. Or maybe Mezzama gave it to them as a reward for so easily taking out so many Fighters Guild chapters.

It remains mysterious.

I already miss him. I have to admit that during this playthrough I struggle a bit in staying serious, and even more so in reminding myself that he's the evil antagonist... I just find him too amusing. So dramatic!