Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?
Yes.

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?
Nightblade tank. I have a main character and it's my favourite one to play, even though I have 19 others as well; I just don't care about them as much.

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?

For the time being, I have dropped Shadow and Assassination and I have been replacing them with whatever I dang well need in a given situation. I'm still learning what all the non-NB skill lines do and how they can synergise with each other, and how the passives work together when all mixed up. It definitely feels good to be able to have a shield that I can share with friends, self-heals that don't require me to stand still (or block, in the future), or an oh-crap ultimate that makes me near-invincible. Once I've taught myself how to use the other class kit, I may actually grab Shadow occasionally if I want to not worry about using a skill to get Major Resolve -- I have played a pure NB tank for a decade and cleared a lot of difficult content with it; I know how to use the toolkit, but in some cases the toolkit is just not good enough, not even with scribing, so having the freedom to swap in stuff that can help is just really, really fun for me.

What game content was it?
Well, for one example, slotting Bone Tyrant alongside Earthen Heart, the necro passives and magma shell allowed me to more or less laugh in the face of hardmode Arkasis in Stone Garden which was just not a possibility before. I don't care how many videos tell me to "just dodge the fire dagger, man", I am not in fact a 17 year old boy with the reflexes of a God, us mere mortals end up eating that DoT, and necro passives plus DK shields made it survivable whilst all the NB self-heals stacked on top of each other did not.

best thing that happened to pvp since hybridization in like 2020ish
people die faster - but one also gotta be more careful
unlimited options for guild pvp and smallscale compositions

https://youtu.be/jMS9_NH4aiY?si=UIXAGZh2KaRg2Rre

I already posted but I want to comment on the concept of tomofhyrule’s post as it also really resonated with me and I forgot to mention the lore side of why I don’t like subclassing. At a more casual level, it could be argued subclassing is more “elder scrolls-like” but at an endgame level, it’s far less “elder scrolls-like”. Based on current meta, in order to do the content I have done preciously (without being at high risk for being shamed or skipped over, and again, will never be a good player), I would have to be open to making my:
- Maormer sorcerer who only knows basic lightning skills -> take earthen heart, soldier of apocrypha, siphoning lines
- Breton “good” necromancer who was raised as a knight -> take earthen heart, soldier of apocrypha lines
- Argonian spy for Hermaeus Mora -> templar, DK. Or, as tank: -> earthen heart, storm calling, warden frost line
(Other required lines not mentioned for I’m okay with those.)

It looks wrong, feels wrong, is wrong. It doesn’t feel good playing a build that doesn’t match a character for me. And even on the casual side of it, my most subclassable overland character I don’t even know where to start because she’s a sorc but I think I would rather her be 2x warden 1x arcanist… but oh wait… I can’t do that…

My second most subclassable overland character has the same problem, I want to do 2x nightblade because we have purple skill styles scattered across the nb lines… but she’s a sorc.

So, tldr, I’m not having an elder scrolls experience because I cant subclass the characters I want subclassed and I have to subclass the ones I don’t want subclassed. Also add the reasons I mentioned in my first post.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

(...)

• Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?
• If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?
• What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?
• What game content was it?

(...)

1 - Improved? No.
2 - Redguard Stam DK is my main PvE/PvP.
3 - I didn't changed any of my builds. I prefer to maintain the class identity of my chars.

colossalvoids wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Name one please - name a single generic fantasy mmo that focuses on skills and not classes. That has, after all, always been the Elder Scrolls approach- focus on skills not classes, and if there were others (and surely there must be many for them to rate as 'generic ') khajiit would l9ve to check them out.

I'm a TES player, not an MMO one. Tes had classes from the very start, true that those are more of a guiding line rather than set in stone profession but I'd argue that most players definitely roleplayed one archetype each play through which is more akin to have a class, your warrior nords, khajiit magical assassins, dunmeri mages etc.

Now we have meridia devoted templar-assassins who worship HM at the same time most of the time I see another player. It has nothing to do with having separate skills - it's abilities designed for a specific archetype.

Khajiit must disagree regarding classes in Elder Scrolls games - it is known, in fact, that while Skyrim simplified much of the gameplay that was considered superfluous in earlier games, such as removing skills, they completely did away with classes because, obviously, the Elder Scrolls are not about classes, but rather about skill development, and "Freedom-of-choice". If one's choice is to play multiple Daedric Princes off against each other, taking the power they offer and using it for one's own ends, well, that's kind of the point, yes?

Khajiit is also a TES player more than an MMO player. Attached is an image of khajiit holding the disks to Arena he purchased when the game was first released, and subsequently played through completely, along with every other TES game since (even Battlespire, but not Redguard because not khajiit), and the one constant across all those games (perhaps this is because khajiit is Gen X and naturally contrary) is that this one has -never- enjoyed anyone telling him what to do or to be, and has -always- known better than some "game designer" how he wished to play through a game. Games that inflict their designers' visions upon the player do not get much attention from khajiit.




So khajiit will reiterate. Adding the ability to mix-and-match nearly every skill and skill combination on every character is the closest this game has come to the spirit of the Elder Scrolls games than it has ever done before. This one could not be happier.

1.) My ability to complete content did increase.
2.) My prior build was a Solo PvE magicka non-pet sorcerer. I kept my build identity and much of my equipment the same, I only changed my slotted skills.
3.) I began to use Herald of the Tome so that I may deal high AoE damage (as well as utilizing the passives and other tooltips). I also use Shadow on occasion for quests and thieving.
4.) Some different types of PvE content:
Solo– Infinite Archive, Maelstrom Arena.
Overland– World Bosses (especially in zones where players are not active enough to rely on for help).
Group Content– Dungeons (especially normal dungeons to farm leads and equipment, again especially at times when it is not reliable to gather players to farm specific items).
I am curious to check out PvP with multi/subclassing, however I'm taking a break from ESO currently.

If you'd like more information or specifics, feel free to @ me.

Just wanted to add that scribing being in the base game now hasn't changed my gameplay since I already owned scribing. Scribing itself should continue to be expanded though, as that also helped smooth over gaps on my build.

Also Fatecarver (and Shadow Cloak) is the only reason I was really excited for multi/subclassing. It was very annoying throwing crystal fragments at enemies one at a time. Free aim, fast, and powerful AoEs feel really fun to play, yet Overload didn't have enough range or damage compared to arcanist beam, and so I knew it would make a difference when facing content with multiple enemies.
If a Fatecarver clone was introduced to the Soul skill line as scribing, then I would have felt no need to multi/subclass. And if a class change token was introduced instead, I would just simply play as arcanist.

I still hope for other classes, even if they're pure-class restricted, can become up to par with arcanists tooltips and abilities.

I already left feedback earlier but since the thread kinda moved further into class identity, subclassing, and definitions of a class I would like to weigh in since I agree with some of what is said but not all of it. My general stance is I am wanted subclassing but think it was implemented poorly and there are a lot of pain points that do not have easy answers.

Part of the reason I stuck to eso over other mmos is I loved the ability to customize my character as I saw fit and not be locked into a class archtype that I may not fully enjoy. My second most played mmo was wow and I loved hunter but not the pets, I loved rogue but not being forced to melee, etc. While prior Elder Scrolls games do have a class system as others have mentioned, they also have twenty or so options as well as the ability to make a custom class. Skyrim did not have a class system but had a system of skills which gave players the same options to play a traditional class or one of their own making. When eso was in beta, there were more classes to play and it got trimmed down to the original four over launch. Warden and some of the classes have made it back into game but others haven't. There are over 50 npc classes that we see throughout the world and several are common or desired archtypes we as players could not really create before subclassing and there are some that we still can't. I know people who have been wishing for bards, monks, and other archtypes for years. Elementalist enjoyers before subclassing often had the frustration of fire, ice, and lightning skills being locked to one specific class meaning they couldn't really get the fantasy they desired.

I admit when I initially played eso way back in beta my biggest disappointment skill wise was that everything could be unlocked on a character except the class lines. It always felt odd to me it was like that when you could choose any weapon, any guild, any crafting skill, etc but not the class ones. It felt like a double standard to me, and very limiting back when there were only four classes. I much would have preferred if anything was grabbable on a character and your skillpoints were the limit, but that too would have it's own balancing problems.

Similar to others who have talked about their characters, I have one that subclassing finally gave me the ability to play the way I wanted. I made my wood elf sorc healer in the first year of eso long before warden released. She is a bosmer spinner and when warden as a class was released I was torn. I actually weaved parts of the sorc things into her story by that point, and while I was happy that there was finally a nature class, I didn't really see her as an ice mage and now felt torn between two classes that only half fit her. I chose to not remake her as a warden but it bothered me for years. Now with subclassing I can weave a build for her that fits her story with skills from both.

I suppose this is part of why I've struggled with class identity talk when it's brought up because for some people the classes never fit the identity we wanted for our characters in the first place. I think what defines a character or class is more than just role vs archtype and there may be some sort of kinsey scale equivalent for classes. I also am curious players' thoughts on subclassing in relation to the Bartle taxonomy of player types. For those not familiar, it was a study done in 1996 which delved into what players want/need out of games by putting them into trends and subcategories. I have talked to others before about how eso is one of those games that draws people from all corners of the chart very well, but the problem is some groups on the chart have wants or needs that are the antithesis of another group and that can make balancing and feedback hard.


One of those tensions that is very obvious in this thread relates to how subclassing impacts the hardest content in the game. I know some people don't believe me when I say it but a lot of hm/tri/scorepush players love lore and rp and their characters just as much as anyone else. My group guild have a soundboard full of our favorite dungeon and trial voicelines we frequently have to rotate in and out because it's so full, write stories and draw our characters and mostly want to get achievements with our friends on the characters/classes we enjoy the most. There may be some that only care about the best meta build and min maxing but that is not the norm in groups I run with. At the same time, harder content has dps checks, heal checks, mechanics checks, taunt swaps, etc that need to be met. Even early in the game with things like Banished Cells 2, there is a point you get overrun by daedroths and eaten. Over time power creep naturally happens and players get better and characters get stronger, but with how subclassing is currently implemented, the question is will future content be balanced around subclassing and the notable powerspike it gives? There are already people who every pts want content to be harder. There are also many people who take months or years to complete content or still struggle on older dungeons and trials. I think this is part of where the pressure to subclass for hm/tri groups come in somewhat. For now it's somewhat optional but will that always be the case? Raid leads have to account for their group and if someone is not subclassing, accommodations need to be made for their lower pen and other factors. This is I think why there feels a lot of talk about feeling torn between your group's needs and what you want to play.

I have a few ideas for solutions, some are starter points/ideas and not perfect but I also haven't seen people bring them up much or at all so I figure since the team is looking at this thread it might be a good place to put them. Note that some are probably not compatible but they are different ideas for directions to go from here imo, not a "please do all of these at once" type suggestion.

• A monoclass mythic-similar to velothi or oakensoal or choose your revolutionizing build mythic here, a mythic that buffs a character for every base skill line they have equipped or for having all three of their original skill lines could be at least a bandaid fix until the power discrepancy between subclassing and monoclassing is in a better spot or fixed completely. This also helps avoid the knee jerk pendulum swing of subclassing penalties which may cause subclassing builds to be frowned upon in group play. Imo the better goal is make both viable/see play/enjoyable at all levels of content.
• A third skill morph-this one came to me very recently and I like it both for adding something to both mono and subclass and for fitting the lore theme of threes that is everpresent in the elder scrolls world. Three morphs, further expanding on the theme of the warrior, mage, and thief or the mmo trinity of tank, healer, and dps. This also opts for helping pvp and pve as those desire different things (because while I haven't pvp'd much in eso in recent years I do enjoy pvp and hate the state it's in). Adding a third morph to skills helps address the skills where both morphs have a use, be they for pvp and pve, stam or magdps, supports and dps, etc. I do still think some morphs of skills are redundant or there are a few where only one morph ever sees play regardless of what you're doing on a class, but I think opening up three morphs and evaluating morphs that are not used much or at all would be a rewarding way to make the new class changes soar while not stepping on toes as easily. I also think the third morph should be used to give options, but we don't need a tank/heal/dps/pvp/pve/mag/stam morph of every skill, but this would help with skills where changing either morph currently would cause problems but some change needs to be done to help the class or the skill.
• Unlock all the skill lines-yes, I alluded to this one above, why not just open things up completely and then balance around that? similar to the weapon lines the class lines are all available to put points in as you choose, skill points' the limit. Obviously there would have to be some tuning to this before it happened like addressing what it means to have every passive potentially unlocked but subclassing as it stands feels like an awkward in between at times and committing to this could mean players get to create what they want similar to the custom class options and/or putting their skill points into the skyrim trees.
• Make passives less conditional-I went back and forth with a friend about my theory was the overused subclassing skill lines had passives with less conditions. I think shifting class passives to be like racial passives and always there might help with some of the issues with subclassing. "When you have a x ability slotted" or "casting x ability slotted" versus "increase your health" or something else the passive gives easily or for free is mostly what I'm talking about here. One of the obvious examples of this are that assassination is desired quite frequently right now but in pve it is largely desired for it's passives (even grim focus is being slotted for it's passive effect currently). This probably helps address that.
• Going through the numbers with a fine tooth comb and making sure abilities functionally are in the same power budget-I think this is inevitable but I'm talking about skills of a certain type such as executes all performing about equally (while obviously accounting for things like radiant destruction being a channel), making sure spammables are functionally about equal in what they do (accounting for some spammables are a channel or have range and the like), etc etc. I think there are less outliers here but it is good to double check especially if other factors for why skills are chosen vs discarded are dealt with.

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to be thorough and go into a few things I hadn't really seen talked about in any of the subclassing discussions yet that I've been mulling over. I've been lurking and following a lot of them because I love the concept of subclassing but I agree that where it is now is not it and I really want to see it be better and meet the wants and needs of all players, not just a few. I also want to see players who do not want to subclass to be able to do that. Subclassing should bring more choices, not less.

A monoclass mythic-similar to velothi or oakensoal or choose your revolutionizing build mythic here, a mythic that buffs a character for every base skill line they have equipped or for having all three of their original skill lines could be at least a bandaid fix until the power discrepancy between subclassing and monoclassing is in a better spot or fixed completely. This also helps avoid the knee jerk pendulum swing of subclassing penalties which may cause subclassing builds to be frowned upon in group play. Imo the better goal is make both viable/see play/enjoyable at all levels of content.


Nice idea 💡above, but I also feel that doing something from the base level for players that want to play pure class is what is required as we shouldn’t have to give up something like mythic bonuses which are meant to be an add on, with sets etc.. just because we want to play original skill lines

I understand people want to and are enjoying subclassing. But I hope that game developers especially around PVP recognise and put in place some support for the player base who want to remain with pure class skill lines.
I loved the flow and balance I had with my DK and NB, I am by no means in the top league of players but I did okay and fun before the update.

I think one thing going against scribing is the fact that there are a very limited number of skills. I'm not going to claim that adding more is easy as I'm sure the many variables are incredibly hard to balance, but the selection itself being expanded would REALLY make scribing more fun. Hitting with a volume increase to add additional skills (maybe one for the current skill lines in-game) would add much more variety.

Another way for players to make their characters more customized and inclined to use scribing, sub-classing, etc. would be to really lean in on the skill styles to make the various effects in the game pop more after all these years

Third post… but something that would help me with subclassing would be if I could reasonably (not 20 dollars for one skill) make any class’ effects match any other class using a skill style pack. DK’s whip but lightning instead of fire, solar barrage but black, etc. I know it’d be a lot of work and it wouldn’t resolve some core problems with subclassing, but at least thematically and roleplay-wise it’d look better.

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

Personally it hasn't made a difference for me, as I already found the classes pretty well rounded (especially in combination with weapon skills to fill any gaps), prior to the subclassing update. It has meant I've had more fun with certain characters, when factoring in roleplay and/or having a satisfying flow of abilities on the ol' skill bars, but my ability to handle gameplay challenges feels the same before and after. 🙂

Wanted to add that subclassing often for me isnt just about maximizing the role but alot of times is genuinely just getting access to types of skills base classes dont have

Executes for Warden, Necro, DK
Teleports/Dash for non-NBs, Arcanists, Sorcs
Additional 20 second dots for Necros
Crit Buffs for classes that have less of them

Scribing I also use for this purpose but most of that is buff or defense or aoe/dot supplements not mobility or executes, and also less frequently 20 second or permanent major/minor buffs.

I find myself using subclassing to solve those gaps not necessarily chasing the “same 3 dps lines” always but definitely prioritizing the skills i need to make an existing base classes whole from a functional perspective.

It does sorta highlight to me the potential benefit to adding 1 more base class skill to each skill line across all classes. If you prioritized adding skills to the base lines that are gameplay/functional gaps players are using subclassing to close I think we would end up somewhere kinda better long term. Would end up where subclassing is used to legitimately make something new instead of solving a gap in capability the base classes could solve more uniquely within its theme with new skills. And on top of that all the unintended changes to existing base skill lines would maybe be less necessary and feel less disruptive to players.

First of all, I want to thank ZoS for this thread. Regardless of whether this thread is a response to subclassing criticism or if it was planned in advance, we really needed an official feedback thread.
As for me, I'm a long-time experienced PvE player, mostly playing DD, and only HM content is of any interest to me.

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?
Yes and no. On one hand, I never had issues with content since I played well enough. But I can’t ignore the noticeable power creep in this patch. Everything is being cleared faster now, but I can’t shake off the feeling – is this really a good thing? Was it necessary? Mixed feelings.
There’s one thing I really want to point out. I do a lot of content with randoms, both from Group Finder and dungeon queue. I often queue to farm dungeon mask pages or for Undaunted pledges. And I don’t see players performing any better. I still often see off-meta builds, I still often see Oakensorcs. Even when the best and easiest builds are well-known and available to everyone. This really slows down content completion.
So, did it become easier for me to play – yes. For 90% of players I see – no. And often those are players with 2k+ CP.

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?
Since the launch of Necrom I’ve only played Arcanist without Banner (because I don’t have vBRP daggers), as that was the best option for most content. I used all the well-known sets like Deadly, Ansul, Coral... no point in listing them all.

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?
As I said, I didn’t have trouble. But since the meta no longer requires vBRP daggers, I was able to take Banner.

General response
I’m against subclassing. I was a supporter of hybridization, because filling your bar with weapon and guild skills made all classes the same. And it was hybridization that gave us seven truly unique classes. We used to have classes – closed systems with their own pros and cons. Now we have one giant class, and it seems that the only way to balance the subclass trees is to make their differences purely cosmetic – which already seems to be happening.
But it’s important to understand that there are existing balance issues that make subclassing even worse.
I don’t see people getting better at the game overall. 90% of players just prefer to ignore any thoughts about their own efficiency, and many discussions on this forum have clearly shown that. For many, subclassing has just become a toy.
The issues with subclassing are not only mechanical – they are aesthetic and lore-related as well. I’m not an RPer, but I care about keeping the “image” of my characters. After all, this is an RPG, and I play this game because I’m a big Elder Scrolls fan. And now I have to teach my Templar shadow magic and the powers of Apocrypha. That’s just nonsense.
This whole situation is very disheartening. I haven’t seen any meaningful improvements to the combat system in years. It all feels like random changes that come and go with each patch.
Please, ZoS, finally pay attention to combat. It feels like your combat team has no clear vision – or if it does, it’s not working, or your methods are just bad.

But one thing is worth noting – my experience in dungeons as a tank or healer has become slightly better. I can’t speak for trials since I only play DD there.
But here’s something I want to mention. I have a NB/Necro/Arcanist tank with a “roflbuild” focused on ultimate regen for the group. And for some reason it plays better than Warden/DK. I don’t know why.

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?
No. I’m one of those that dropped my sub and left because of U46.
If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?
I was a Nightblade, I was a DK, I was a Warden, and so on. I played classes in end game content (PvE and PvP) for a decade.

Classes were removed with U46. Many of us, as part of this roleplaying game, liked playing the characters we had been working on for 10 years, over thousands of hours…That's gone, if you care about not getting rolled in PvP or if you are just a competitive person in general, as many end gamers are. Also, now it’s just one or two “classes”, the replayability was hurt with U46. I enjoyed swapping to a new class for a while, it kept things fresh…not available anymore.

Subclass you butt off ZOS, just do it in a way that doesn't necessitate changing how many have played the game for 10 years, please.