Shalks needs an Indicator

Avran_Sylt · July 24

If it's the new burst damage meta, it needs an indicator, or something to telegraph when it's going to pop up, not instant damage.

The_Meathead · July 24

Shalks is very telegraphed with the animation of someone hitting the ground, since the first one pops up so soon after.

You could say the second one is delayed enough that an indicator might be nice, but any time I've ever fought a Warden (or now someone with Animal subclass) and seen 'em thump the floor, I just keep moving out of their straight-ahead trajectory because I know it's coming. Any additional AoE would just be clutter imo.

Avran_Sylt · July 24

The_Meathead wrote: »

Shalks is very telegraphed with the animation of someone hitting the ground, since the first one pops up so soon after.

You could say the second one is delayed enough that an indicator might be nice, but any time I've ever fought a Warden (or now someone with Animal subclass) and seen 'em thump the floor, I just keep moving out of their straight-ahead trajectory because I know it's coming. Any additional AoE would just be clutter imo.

Rush of Agony is easily mitigated by holding block when you see someone blink, but that's getting changed for ease of counter.

Sluggy · July 24

It has three. A very distinct sound, a very distinct animation, and a circle effect under their feet after being cast.

Now, If you wanted to argue that it needs a second circle when the wave is about to pop or that the person shouldn't be able to roll dodge to cancel all three, then I can absolutely agree with that (even though it does require some skill and a lot of stam being committed to pull it off in the heat of battle).

Avran_Sylt · July 24

Sluggy wrote: »

It has three. A very distinct sound, a very distinct animation, and a circle effect under their feet after being cast.

Now, If you wanted to argue that it needs a second circle when the wave is about to pop or that the person shouldn't be able to roll dodge to cancel all three, then I can absolutely agree with that (even though it does require some skill and a lot of stam being committed to pull it off in the heat of battle).

When it's about to pop is more or less what I'm talking about, not too early, but enough where if you're swapping focus while in a group fight you don't suddenly get slammed with an AoE you didn't see the setup for in the first place, that also recasts itself again.

Being able to mask those effects via roll-dodge is interesting. Didn't know that.

tsaescishoeshiner · July 24

I would like an indicator for the second hit as a Warden, too. Sometimes I can't tell if I have another hit upcoming--the indicator for the first hit is helpful in that case.

Avran_Sylt · July 24

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I would like an indicator for the second hit as a Warden, too. Sometimes I can't tell if I have another hit upcoming--the indicator for the first hit is helpful in that case.

I can imagine that'd also be a nice QoL, but first hit as well.

P0m3k · July 25

I spent +6 hours in IC and Cyro during the current Whitestrake event.

Literally 90% of people are playing: assassination (merciless/surprise), animal companions (deep), storm calling (streak/overload). Previously, each class had one, maybe two, three, builds, which most considered endgame. Now, all classes use the same one, and consider one skill line an extra, unless they're in one of the above. Today, in IC, out of 25 fights I fought, only one didn't use streak

No one can convince me otherwise. Anyone who participates in the event can see what's happening. It looks more like the game has been reduced to a single class.

Don't get me wrong, I've been anticipating this since the meetings with the developers when this sub update was announced – questions about balance ended with "we'll keep an eye on it," which is why it looks the way it does (besides the rapidly declining player count, there are a lot of new negative reviews on steam).

I really like this game, but good luck finding the golden mean now - it's definitely not crossplay, because at the end of this road everyone will come to the same conclusions. I wish for myself and you that the situation will improve, although I am starting to doubt it

Avran_Sylt · July 25

P0m3k wrote: »

I spent +6 hours in IC and Cyro during the current Whitestrake event.

Literally 90% of people are playing: assassination (merciless/surprise), animal companions (deep), storm calling (streak/overload). Previously, each class had one, maybe two, three, builds, which most considered endgame. Now, all classes use the same one, and consider one skill line an extra, unless they're in one of the above. Today, in IC, out of 25 fights I fought, only one didn't use streak

No one can convince me otherwise. Anyone who participates in the event can see what's happening. It looks more like the game has been reduced to a single class.

Don't get me wrong, I've been anticipating this since the meetings with the developers when this sub update was announced – questions about balance ended with "we'll keep an eye on it," which is why it looks the way it does (besides the rapidly declining player count, there are a lot of new negative reviews on steam).

I really like this game, but good luck finding the golden mean now - it's definitely not crossplay, because at the end of this road everyone will come to the same conclusions. I wish for myself and you that the situation will improve, although I am starting to doubt it

Yeah, I expect a lot of the forum malding over Lightning Form losing Major Resolve were a bunch of PvP enthusiasts annoyed that they were going to lose out on easily accessible defense on their triple-damage subclass.

Which is ironic because Streak is also a form of defense as of those three skill-lines it's the only easily sourced unblockable/undodgeable stun too (literally the only non-ultimate stun our of all three subclasses while also being the only unblockable undodgeable stun), while also being a disengage, and engage, it's a bloody overloaded skill

Sorcs Stormcalling line is by far the most survivability focused damage-oriented skill-line I can think of lol. Plox add Shadow Image to the Assassination skill-line and let it cause an AoE unblockable stun on activation too!

Blackrim · July 26

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

If it's the new burst damage meta, it needs an indicator, or something to telegraph when it's going to pop up, not instant damage.

New is hilarious

Urzigurumash · July 26

Blackrim wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

If it's the new burst damage meta, it needs an indicator, or something to telegraph when it's going to pop up, not instant damage.

New is hilarious

Agreed, lets take a trip back in time to 2018 when there was one Stam spec to rule them all (back then the Stam morph had Breach too).

Urzigurumash · July 26

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

P0m3k wrote: »

I spent +6 hours in IC and Cyro during the current Whitestrake event.

Literally 90% of people are playing: assassination (merciless/surprise), animal companions (deep), storm calling (streak/overload). Previously, each class had one, maybe two, three, builds, which most considered endgame. Now, all classes use the same one, and consider one skill line an extra, unless they're in one of the above. Today, in IC, out of 25 fights I fought, only one didn't use streak

No one can convince me otherwise. Anyone who participates in the event can see what's happening. It looks more like the game has been reduced to a single class.

Don't get me wrong, I've been anticipating this since the meetings with the developers when this sub update was announced – questions about balance ended with "we'll keep an eye on it," which is why it looks the way it does (besides the rapidly declining player count, there are a lot of new negative reviews on steam).

I really like this game, but good luck finding the golden mean now - it's definitely not crossplay, because at the end of this road everyone will come to the same conclusions. I wish for myself and you that the situation will improve, although I am starting to doubt it

Yeah, I expect a lot of the forum malding over Lightning Form losing Major Resolve were a bunch of PvP enthusiasts annoyed that they were going to lose out on easily accessible defense on their triple-damage subclass.

Nah, don't put it all to the whim of today's meta chasing, this skill had a 11 year old tradition of being the source of Resolve for a Sorc, nka PureSorc. Some of us enjoy this idea of Class Traditions.

Urzigurumash · July 26

I'm totally down for more indication on Shalks though. 100% better than nerfing the skill outright.

ESO_Nightingale · July 27

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I'm totally down for more indication on Shalks though. 100% better than nerfing the skill outright.

yeah i would hope it also would double for for caster as well to see exactly where it's going to go.

Sluggy · July 28

Again, I'd like to stress that it has not one but three MASSIVE indicators that any skilled opponent will recognize in a heartbeat. The animation, the sound, and a circle around your feet. As soon as they see it, they are already moving laterally, pushing through you, or turtling up.

Warden have traditionally been one of the easiest classes to avoid their damage because the setup can be seen coming a mile away. Even the roll dodge trick I mentioned might not actually work (I've never verified if it actually hides the effect on other clients and even if it does it likely doesn't sync so it might just be randomly based on when the other player receives network packets and plays back the animations).

P0m3k · July 29

Sluggy wrote: »

Again, I'd like to stress that it has not one but three MASSIVE indicators that any skilled opponent will recognize in a heartbeat. The animation, the sound, and a circle around your feet. As soon as they see it, they are already moving laterally, pushing through you, or turtling up.

Warden have traditionally been one of the easiest classes to avoid their damage because the setup can be seen coming a mile away. Even the roll dodge trick I mentioned might not actually work (I've never verified if it actually hides the effect on other clients and even if it does it likely doesn't sync so it might just be randomly based on when the other player receives network packets and plays back the animations).

In theory, yes, but I agree with the Warden-only build. You're describing an ideal world. As a PvP player, I have a number of workarounds, assuming I were one of those who uses copy-past builds. Currently, I'd use skill (deep) and, at the right moment, use charge (temp), leap (dk), or even streak (sorc). A few hours of training and you'll master it in a way that even more experienced players will have trouble avoiding, especially in more chaos. Nothing extraordinary or complicated, but difficult to avoid with minimal CC and dealing unimaginable damage. Again, I boil it down to one thing: if literally over 90% of players use the same few skills, something is wrong. The subclass system has brought it down to this same level perfectly and deserves a correction, which, by the way, will probably destroy class-only builds.

CameraBeardThePirate · July 29

P0m3k wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Again, I'd like to stress that it has not one but three MASSIVE indicators that any skilled opponent will recognize in a heartbeat. The animation, the sound, and a circle around your feet. As soon as they see it, they are already moving laterally, pushing through you, or turtling up.

Warden have traditionally been one of the easiest classes to avoid their damage because the setup can be seen coming a mile away. Even the roll dodge trick I mentioned might not actually work (I've never verified if it actually hides the effect on other clients and even if it does it likely doesn't sync so it might just be randomly based on when the other player receives network packets and plays back the animations).

In theory, yes, but I agree with the Warden-only build. You're describing an ideal world. As a PvP player, I have a number of workarounds, assuming I were one of those who uses copy-past builds. Currently, I'd use skill (deep) and, at the right moment, use charge (temp), leap (dk), or even streak (sorc). A few hours of training and you'll master it in a way that even more experienced players will have trouble avoiding, especially in more chaos. Nothing extraordinary or complicated, but difficult to avoid with minimal CC and dealing unimaginable damage. Again, I boil it down to one thing: if literally over 90% of players use the same few skills, something is wrong. The subclass system has brought it down to this same level perfectly and deserves a correction, which, by the way, will probably destroy class-only builds.

Ok but you could say the same about literally any of the delayed burst abilities. Of course its unavoidable if you time your stun correctly; that's the point and that's where your player skill comes in.

90% of people are using Shalks because of the sustain you get from having Animal Companions, not Shalks itself. Get rid of the free sustain on that line and there would be a pretty even split between Grave Lord and Animal Companions.

Urzigurumash · July 29

Take off Major and Minor Breach and maybe you'd see equal Blastbones. Most people just wanna pugstomp so I don't think Sustain is THE reason

CameraBeardThePirate · July 29

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Take off Major and Minor Breach and maybe you'd see equal Blastbones. Most people just wanna pugstomp so I don't think Sustain is THE reason

You still need sustain to pugstomp.

Urzigurumash · July 29

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Take off Major and Minor Breach and maybe you'd see equal Blastbones. Most people just wanna pugstomp so I don't think Sustain is THE reason

You still need sustain to pugstomp.

The Breaches on DF are the big outliers in AC, by quite a bit. There's no other Breach quite like them.

I just cant agree that a Sustain Passive is dictating the meta during the all time peak of Burst Damage.

Sluggy · July 29

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

P0m3k wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Again, I'd like to stress that it has not one but three MASSIVE indicators that any skilled opponent will recognize in a heartbeat. The animation, the sound, and a circle around your feet. As soon as they see it, they are already moving laterally, pushing through you, or turtling up.

Warden have traditionally been one of the easiest classes to avoid their damage because the setup can be seen coming a mile away. Even the roll dodge trick I mentioned might not actually work (I've never verified if it actually hides the effect on other clients and even if it does it likely doesn't sync so it might just be randomly based on when the other player receives network packets and plays back the animations).

In theory, yes, but I agree with the Warden-only build. You're describing an ideal world. As a PvP player, I have a number of workarounds, assuming I were one of those who uses copy-past builds. Currently, I'd use skill (deep) and, at the right moment, use charge (temp), leap (dk), or even streak (sorc). A few hours of training and you'll master it in a way that even more experienced players will have trouble avoiding, especially in more chaos. Nothing extraordinary or complicated, but difficult to avoid with minimal CC and dealing unimaginable damage. Again, I boil it down to one thing: if literally over 90% of players use the same few skills, something is wrong. The subclass system has brought it down to this same level perfectly and deserves a correction, which, by the way, will probably destroy class-only builds.

Ok but you could say the same about literally any of the delayed burst abilities. Of course its unavoidable if you time your stun correctly; that's the point and that's where your player skill comes in.

90% of people are using Shalks because of the sustain you get from having Animal Companions, not Shalks itself. Get rid of the free sustain on that line and there would be a pretty even split between Grave Lord and Animal Companions.

This ^.

I used shalks because it gave AoE major and minor pen debuffs. Free sustain just by having it slotted. Even more sustain and a purge via netch (I can even sprint and sneak without draining stam that way). And finally and mostly importantly the crit bonuses - because having 149% crit damage right now is pretty stronk. The damage from the shalks itself is ancillary at best and is probably the least significant portion of my combo. The downside is that if you nerf any of that, anyone that was still playing a pure warden would be in for a world of hurt. It's almost like these skill lines were all designed within the confines of the class structure they were placed in and taking that leash off has completely destroyed everything.

Silvains_Demon · July 29

Sounds like the best fix to this situation is to limit subclassing to only 1 extra skill line (so 3 skill lines + 1 skill line chosen from other classes) and then go from there. It might fix the issue to a degree and allows classes to maintain some form of identity.