Will Vengeance be the new PVP model?

MincMincMinc · July 22

Arrow312 wrote: »

I can only speak for myself, but a Cyrodiil without sets and everything else makes no sense to me. For me, it would be the final nail in the coffin. I only play PvP because I just can't see anything else after umpteen runs. Housing has never interested me.
If you give me a version without sets etc. then I might as well play something else. Because the PvE is then completely irrelevant, as I don't need anything else from it.

Well hate to disappoint you, but they wont be adding sets to vengeance for probably another 4 or more tests. Even if they do, it will be basic sets like Hundings or maybe the noproc campaign sets.

Test 1 - class skills
Test 2 - weapon & Alliance skills, noticeable lag likely due to resto heal stacking in groups
Test 3 - Guild & armor skills, background testing for skyshards, mounts, achievements, random systems in general (maybe they think they are updating too much during pvp or something?)
Test 4 - ??? Expecting skill lines like vamp, WW, psijic based on the Survey
Test 5 - ??? Maybe different Aoe cap rules based on Livestreams or more background tests. Damage/stuns have higher cap, heals have a lower cap. Prevents lingering ticks and promotes combat to end group fights and ticks quicker.
Test 6 - ??? Hopefully healing or group tick limitation tests based on Test 2 results. (cross healing outside group, Hot and Buff not stacking, Hot overheal cut)
Test 7 - ??? Skills get damage based on stats instead of flat values
Test 8 - ??? Passives
Test 9 - ??? Mundus

SolarRune · July 22

Wasn't the suggestion feom zos that there would be some sets in vengeance 3??

I think there needs to be great care in over interpreting what's going on here, is vengeance the future direction for PvP, the answer is probably yes. HOWEVER, will it be the vengeance versions we have currently seen be that product, I think is a clear no.
It feels like vengeance is the modal to both recode PvP from the ground up again, and providing a way to separately balance PvP and PvE, both are things that I have seen asked for by people that are anti-vengeance, I just don't get it.

MincMincMinc · July 22

SolarRune wrote: »

Wasn't the suggestion feom zos that there would be some sets in vengeance 3??

I think there needs to be great care in over interpreting what's going on here, is vengeance the future direction for PvP, the answer is probably yes. HOWEVER, will it be the vengeance versions we have currently seen be that product, I think is a clear no.
It feels like vengeance is the modal to both recode PvP from the ground up again, and providing a way to separately balance PvP and PvE, both are things that I have seen asked for by people that are anti-vengeance, I just don't get it.

No there has been no mention of sets for vengeance 3....sets are going to be probably the last thing introduced, but it is what people want the most because it makes people feel like they have a choice.

Elendir2am · July 22

Vengeance mode is on paths to much clearer state, when servers will be able keep up with what's happening at large scale fights. But it will also be clearer for the developers to navigate and really try to keep the game in a somewhat balanced state.

Balance is something that got on slippery slope years ago and is getting worse and worse with every updates.

Arrow312 · July 24

MincMincMinc wrote: »

SolarRune wrote: »

Wasn't the suggestion feom zos that there would be some sets in vengeance 3??

I think there needs to be great care in over interpreting what's going on here, is vengeance the future direction for PvP, the answer is probably yes. HOWEVER, will it be the vengeance versions we have currently seen be that product, I think is a clear no.
It feels like vengeance is the modal to both recode PvP from the ground up again, and providing a way to separately balance PvP and PvE, both are things that I have seen asked for by people that are anti-vengeance, I just don't get it.

No there has been no mention of sets for vengeance 3....sets are going to be probably the last thing introduced, but it is what people want the most because it makes people feel like they have a choice.

Thats the point i dont like this template. I want to build my own build. How many said ZOS should take a look at HoTs and shields? Imo we need a cap of HoTs when you see a BG status bar there are min 5 Hots running at the same time. This stacking make them unkillable because the damage they get will never be higher the heals.

Tigor · July 24

They know what they are doing. No more quibbling about builds, just pvp. Pure entertainment.

Avran_Sylt · July 24

Joy_Division wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

You say that with such conviction, yet ZOS has said nothing to that effect. Not at all.

It pains for me to say this as a PvP main, but you are far overstating the importance of the tiny PvP community. If we had any impact on ZOS's bottom line, it would not have taken them 6 years to offer a single update to Battlegrounds (and then subsequently ignore it) and ten years since, what 1.2, to finally get serious in embarking on a attempt to do something about lag.

The moment it is deemed essential to bribe people to do the content rather than play and enjoy it for its own sake, that is pretty much the death knell.

How much you wanna bet Vengeance and "addressing PvP lag" is in part to facilitate larger PvE overland content. Like, I dunno, the Writhing Wall?

You don;t want to take that bet. In no universe is ZOS ever going to use PvP as an incentive to get people to PvE

What?

No, I mean server performance to allow a greater number of players and trash mobs in a location at once with less lag to really give a feeling of scale for what might essentially be a PvE "warzone".

As in, utilizing their netcode improvements across both isles.

JustLovely · July 24

Will always be wondering why ZOS hasn't even tried limiting heal and shield stacking BEFORE putting time into this vengeance nonsense.

Iriidius · July 24

Doesnt seem Vengeance will replace Grey Host for some time other than 1 week tests as ZOS did not add Vengeance even as an option during Midyear Mayham.

Iriidius · July 24

There will be heavy lag and many players without PvP builds trying to get event tickets and probably the highest population for half a year so everyone could profit from optional Vengeance:
Players without build because they can have fair fights and players with build because they actually get in main campaigns.

Iriidius · July 24

But somehow ZOS is unable to let players choose which mode they prefer despite enaugh queue in Vengeance to to fill multiple Standart campaigns on first days and most players preferring one playstile not playing the other.

SolarRune · July 25

Just been looking through various patch notes, for Vengeance 3 there is this line:

'A new armor skill line has been added which includes all three active abilities for light, medium and heavy armor, tailored for performance.'

This is why I thought armor was being included - apologies for the confusion

Quackery · July 25

I hope it becomes the new mode, because PvP is unplayable right now. Came back after a hiatus, but imagine my surprise when people were unkillable. It was so much fun to see everyone use Negate and Streak...

Back to hiatus I go! Well, until Vengeance mode is part of the game.

AngryPenguin · July 25

Quackery wrote: »

I hope it becomes the new mode, because PvP is unplayable right now. Came back after a hiatus, but imagine my surprise when people were unkillable. It was so much fun to see everyone use Negate and Streak...

Back to hiatus I go! Well, until Vengeance mode is part of the game.

Vengeance mode will drive most of the PvP mains from the game if it's mandated. So ZOS is creating a real pickle for themselves if they ever decide to mandate vengeance mode.

Quackery · July 25

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

I hope it becomes the new mode, because PvP is unplayable right now. Came back after a hiatus, but imagine my surprise when people were unkillable. It was so much fun to see everyone use Negate and Streak...

Back to hiatus I go! Well, until Vengeance mode is part of the game.

Vengeance mode will drive most of the PvP mains from the game if it's mandated. So ZOS is creating a real pickle for themselves if they ever decide to mandate vengeance mode.

How so? It'll allow for a much larger player base where non-pvp players can take part and not feel overwhelmed.

AngryPenguin · July 26

Quackery wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

I hope it becomes the new mode, because PvP is unplayable right now. Came back after a hiatus, but imagine my surprise when people were unkillable. It was so much fun to see everyone use Negate and Streak...

Back to hiatus I go! Well, until Vengeance mode is part of the game.

Vengeance mode will drive most of the PvP mains from the game if it's mandated. So ZOS is creating a real pickle for themselves if they ever decide to mandate vengeance mode.

How so? It'll allow for a much larger player base where non-pvp players can take part and not feel overwhelmed.

You answered your own question. Non PvP players aren't going to start suddenly start enjoying PvP. The number of players who will take up PvP and stick with it is very minimal. Where as forcing vengeance mode will drive away virtually every PvP main. Vengeance is a lose lose for everyone proposition.

colossalvoids · July 26

Quackery wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

I hope it becomes the new mode, because PvP is unplayable right now. Came back after a hiatus, but imagine my surprise when people were unkillable. It was so much fun to see everyone use Negate and Streak...

Back to hiatus I go! Well, until Vengeance mode is part of the game.

Vengeance mode will drive most of the PvP mains from the game if it's mandated. So ZOS is creating a real pickle for themselves if they ever decide to mandate vengeance mode.

How so? It'll allow for a much larger player base where non-pvp players can take part and not feel overwhelmed.

Honestly as someone who is "pro-testing" I'd agree with it actually driving away current PvP mains who particularly enjoy this kind of PvP we have in the last 4-5 years. One reason I don't really think having just one campaign and ruleset would work for everyone as clearly there's now an audience for something we quit from years ago. At the same time a lot of ex PvP mains are wanting to return and there's no place for them currently with death of no-CP campaigns. New folks also don't seem particularly interested as it's pretty dead to begin with. The caps are low, no pop even for those minimal caps in place, years of bad decisions are still there and player behaviour and habits are even worse than they ever were, and are supported by the lack of any attention to the mode. There's literally no way without making it again from scratch to have a chance for a healthy PvP again, where people do want to stick around. And that's still a maybe as trust is broken years ago, not everyone is ready to dive in again to just end up as previously dumped away for the new audiences with new needs.

Elendir2am · July 26

Quackery wrote: »

How so? It'll allow for a much larger player base where non-pvp players can take part and not feel overwhelmed.

Because they would have to start using their skills to win again and they are too used to relying on broken sets now to go with it.

Blackrim · July 26

Quackery wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

I hope it becomes the new mode, because PvP is unplayable right now. Came back after a hiatus, but imagine my surprise when people were unkillable. It was so much fun to see everyone use Negate and Streak...

Back to hiatus I go! Well, until Vengeance mode is part of the game.

Vengeance mode will drive most of the PvP mains from the game if it's mandated. So ZOS is creating a real pickle for themselves if they ever decide to mandate vengeance mode.

How so? It'll allow for a much larger player base where non-pvp players can take part and not feel overwhelmed.

As someone who has spent over a decade on PvP games when something that aims to be inclusive to all players occurs a casual player will immediately state: This is good for the game.

The problem that occurs after is two months after release that activity is completely dead because the casual player literally does not care about the game. They only care about the two months of experiencing that event.

The experienced players will return everyday to play. I know a few guilds that have been running SINCE LAUNCH in Cyrodiil almost every day.

This is a very unique community and it will perish if something like vengeance came to simplify and make a rare PvP environment mundane like every other game that exists.

This is the one thing that ESO has somewhat done right (not without its flaws).

MincMincMinc · July 29

Blackrim wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

I hope it becomes the new mode, because PvP is unplayable right now. Came back after a hiatus, but imagine my surprise when people were unkillable. It was so much fun to see everyone use Negate and Streak...

Back to hiatus I go! Well, until Vengeance mode is part of the game.

Vengeance mode will drive most of the PvP mains from the game if it's mandated. So ZOS is creating a real pickle for themselves if they ever decide to mandate vengeance mode.

How so? It'll allow for a much larger player base where non-pvp players can take part and not feel overwhelmed.

As someone who has spent over a decade on PvP games when something that aims to be inclusive to all players occurs a casual player will immediately state: This is good for the game.

The problem that occurs after is two months after release that activity is completely dead because the casual player literally does not care about the game. They only care about the two months of experiencing that event.

The experienced players will return everyday to play. I know a few guilds that have been running SINCE LAUNCH in Cyrodiil almost every day.

This is a very unique community and it will perish if something like vengeance came to simplify and make a rare PvP environment mundane like every other game that exists.

This is the one thing that ESO has somewhat done right (not without its flaws).

The thing all the doomsday posts miss is that there are multiple possibilities:

1. Zos does no action and leaves live as a proc soup where pvp cap consists of around 60 players a faction (~5 groups) With a barely functioning server. No pugs ever play or start playing. Eventually ball groups without anyone to fight get bored and log out.
2. Zos implements pure vengeance template pvp as is with no changes....... Which cuts off all monetary gains from having a consistent playerbase that buys dlc, race changes, alliance changes to stay relevant.
3. Zos iterates on vengeance bringing back all the systems as normal after hard passes are done. Imagine live except now the underlying skills have been cleaned up and redone. Systems like Mundus are rebalanced. Food is balanced finally. ETC.
4. Maybe there is somewhere inbetween where the are now PvP specific gear sets. This concept doesn't work well with the monetary issue though because in some way zos has to make sure pvp players buy the dlc.

colossalvoids · July 29

Blackrim wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

I hope it becomes the new mode, because PvP is unplayable right now. Came back after a hiatus, but imagine my surprise when people were unkillable. It was so much fun to see everyone use Negate and Streak...

Back to hiatus I go! Well, until Vengeance mode is part of the game.

Vengeance mode will drive most of the PvP mains from the game if it's mandated. So ZOS is creating a real pickle for themselves if they ever decide to mandate vengeance mode.

How so? It'll allow for a much larger player base where non-pvp players can take part and not feel overwhelmed.

As someone who has spent over a decade on PvP games when something that aims to be inclusive to all players occurs a casual player will immediately state: This is good for the game.

The problem that occurs after is two months after release that activity is completely dead because the casual player literally does not care about the game. They only care about the two months of experiencing that event.

The experienced players will return everyday to play. I know a few guilds that have been running SINCE LAUNCH in Cyrodiil almost every day.

This is a very unique community and it will perish if something like vengeance came to simplify and make a rare PvP environment mundane like every other game that exists.

This is the one thing that ESO has somewhat done right (not without its flaws).

While I do agree with this fully, I guess the issue is that years of decisions cannot be undone without some kind of a rework nowadays, starting from the block one adding and subtracting things to see what works, performs and is attracting players.
Also a huge factor here is that the active audience is so low and new blood is non existent which wasn't the case years back - no bad decision or change was able to shake the general population significantly for quite some time.

Yes, dedicated players would be there no matter what every evening but their numbers are so small now it's just not sustainable anymore and a compromise should be taken somewhere for the new audiences that zos attracted throughout the last five years to start joining the larger game or attract new or old players alike back at it if that's even possible on a larger scale. It's either worked on or left to rot until there's literally no one left with such a pase.

JonesHeathen · September 30

In my opinion doing Vengeance as a performance test is fine.
Hell, doing it as an occasional PvP Event is also fine.

But changing PvP from including all sets and abilities to having pre-sets is just plain dumb.
If we wanted to play PvP with presets we would have played a MOBA game.

Yes, there will always be some sort of meta and counter-meta, but beauty of MMORPG PvP and especially ESO PvP is possible uniqueness and variety that different setups allow. Skill and good setup should always be rewarded.

Skill and good builds should be rewarded not restricted, with a dose of common sense of course.

Muizer · September 30

JonesHeathen wrote: »

Skill and good builds should be rewarded not restricted, with a dose of common sense of course.

Do those things go together though? If I wanted to know which of two players is more skilled I would have them both play the very same build or at the very least the same build options. I would most definitely not allow one player to bring better gear to the fight than the other.

Reverb · September 30

Is the future of PvP only 6 DC players online during peak prime time hours and an entirely red map? Probably.

Tigor · September 30

Reverb wrote: »

Is the future of PvP only 6 DC players online during peak prime time hours and an entirely red map? Probably.

Why would the map be red if there are only 6 DC players online? Those 6 DC players are turning the map blue and no one wants to play against them for good reason.

Mayrael · October 6

Muizer wrote: »

JonesHeathen wrote: »

Skill and good builds should be rewarded not restricted, with a dose of common sense of course.

Do those things go together though? If I wanted to know which of two players is more skilled I would have them both play the very same build or at the very least the same build options. I would most definitely not allow one player to bring better gear to the fight than the other.

Then go play Dota, LoL or dozens of other such games if you want to have same setups for everyone. This is an MMORPG where your build and gear are part of your skill as a player. Knowing your strengths, weaknesses, and how to use them effectively is also a key part of skill. Otherwise, why does one player have a better build than another? Knowledge is power—not just quick clicking.

Muizer · October 6

Mayrael wrote: »

This is an MMORPG where your build and gear are part of your skill as a player.

Oh I don't have any problem with theory crafting being considered a skill, but since people can just look effective builds on YouTube or something, that doesn't actually show up in game. So what skill remains then? Is grinding to keep up with the latest meta skill?

Also, plz don't move the goalposts. Just because something is often part of a MMORPG doesn't mean it requires skill. Plenty of things evidently just require investing a lot of time, and sometimes real world money. Would be rather pathetic to mistake that for skill, don't you think?

JonesHeathen · October 7

Muizer wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

This is an MMORPG where your build and gear are part of your skill as a player.

Oh I don't have any problem with theory crafting being considered a skill, but since people can just look effective builds on YouTube or something, that doesn't actually show up in game. So what skill remains then? Is grinding to keep up with the latest meta skill?

Also, plz don't move the goalposts. Just because something is often part of a MMORPG doesn't mean it requires skill. Plenty of things evidently just require investing a lot of time, and sometimes real world money. Would be rather pathetic to mistake that for skill, don't you think?

There is close to non "gear grind to keep up with meta" in ESO. Gear here is easy to get in comparison to most other MMOs where the gear grind is the whole point of the game. And where you have meta you will always have countermeta.
Saying that you are loosing because someone has a better gear then is not a thing in ESO.
( Literally got Null Arca in 90min via Group Finder )

As for people looking up builds online. Did you even visit Cyro? Most of the people play random stuff of builds they like to play. Also, there is one thing copying someone's build, the whole other thing is using it effectively.
With that being said, since this is group PvP, it generally also means using it effectively alongside group of people that you are playing with.

YandereGirlfriend · October 9

JonesHeathen wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

This is an MMORPG where your build and gear are part of your skill as a player.

Oh I don't have any problem with theory crafting being considered a skill, but since people can just look effective builds on YouTube or something, that doesn't actually show up in game. So what skill remains then? Is grinding to keep up with the latest meta skill?

Also, plz don't move the goalposts. Just because something is often part of a MMORPG doesn't mean it requires skill. Plenty of things evidently just require investing a lot of time, and sometimes real world money. Would be rather pathetic to mistake that for skill, don't you think?

There is close to non "gear grind to keep up with meta" in ESO. Gear here is easy to get in comparison to most other MMOs where the gear grind is the whole point of the game. And where you have meta you will always have countermeta.
Saying that you are loosing because someone has a better gear then is not a thing in ESO.
( Literally got Null Arca in 90min via Group Finder )

As for people looking up builds online. Did you even visit Cyro? Most of the people play random stuff of builds they like to play. Also, there is one thing copying someone's build, the whole other thing is using it effectively.
With that being said, since this is group PvP, it generally also means using it effectively alongside group of people that you are playing with.

100%.

There are so many good Crafted sets and easily acquired monsters that there really isn't an excuse to not have a basic and strong PvP build.

More importantly, as you said, even if you were just looking to copypasta some YouTuber, the player is still the decisive factor. Like I could copy Malcolm's MagSorc builds all day long back in the day, but, sadly, that didn't magically give me all of his skill along with it. Ditto for Alcast PvE builds before that.

You can wear the gear but if you can't execute with it then none of it matters at all. Even worse, it might actually be a hindrance to your performance versus using something simpler.

ADawg · October 12

All this defense on vengeance is funny, because when I watch people play vengeance its super high health builds going at it for what seems 15-20 minutes. No one dies and it feels like the "tank meta" which seems to plague the game.

What I personally cannot stand in this game (PVP-wise) is when you go full min-max on a damage build you feel like your damage is never enough. Im talking full-bore pedal to the metal damage, crit chance, crit value, penetration, all of it. You roll up to a 1vXer who laughs at your damage, presses 1 a few times to pop a burst heal to full health then utterly melts you.

Then you have literally 15-20 people diving on a 1vXer who shrugs off the damage, pops corrosive (totally balanced) armor and turns around and has 12 seconds of ROFL LAWL TEE HEE WIN time then sprints off with streak into the horizon.

You (ZOS) are giving the player SPEED, POWER, DAMAGE, DEFENSE, HEALS, UTILITY, GODMODE in a build. There is no risk vs reward in the build. There is simply [find the path to broken power] each patch then rinse and repeat.

The fundamental #1 problem with builds in this game is simple: Healing power scaling off damage. It is absolutely ridiculous that offensive stats make HEALING more powerful.

Stacking all defensive sets should....SHOULD make you tankier than a broken 1vX build, but it doesn't. It makes no LOGICAL sense from a build design perspective. Yet the answer is to scrub all of it and make everyone tanky with 70k health.

How about you fix the foundation before you patch the roof.