Negate Magic Shouldn't Have An AoE Cap

NordJitsu · May 2014

So I know there is a long on going thread of people railing against AoE caps in general, but I wanted to take the time to focus on one ability in particular: Negate Magic.

I think its down right absurd to place a cap on this ability. Its an area of denial ability that does absolutely no damage.

For those who don't remember, this ability also used to damage opponents in the radius (in early Beta.) Back then, it was pretty much the single best Ultimate available to the Sorcerer.

Then, it received a justifiable nerf. Now it simply dispels effects and silences enemies (also stunning monsters.)

In PvP, its a great Area of Denial zerg busting technique. Smart Sorcs use it on gaps when a zerg is rushing into a keep. The other day, a group of DC was trying to take Arrius Keep from us where we held a scroll. They broke down the inner gate and rushed in to the right where they all grouped up in a corner, away from the LoS of the NPCs.

The plan seemed to be to group up and then push out all together. I saw that coming so I lead my group over there, dropped a negate magic on them in the corner, and we started slaughtering. Most of them died and the remaining few rushed out of the AREA OF EFFECT and back out of the keep.

And that's the part that keeps this skill balanced. You can leave the area. It doesn't do any damage. It just keeps you from casting spells while you're in that little bubble.

With a cap of six targes I honestly can't imagine myself using this any more. What good will it do me to drop this thing on a group of 20 players when 14 of them can still freely hit me? How does the skill decide who gets silenced? What if it silences 6 bash spamming stamina based DKs? What good has that done me if the healers and the ranged DPS can still fire off spells to their hearts content?

I suppose AoE caps are not the end of the world on some of the abilities that already have them (Impulse for example.) But I really, for the life of me, cannot understand adding a cap to an ability that doesn't do any damage.

If you're going to cap this skill, you really need to add back the damage component or you'll see it completely fall to the wayside in PvP.

NordJitsu · May 2014

I'd also like clarification on exactly which effects are being capped. Is it everything?

For example, Suppression Field grants spell resistance to allies in the area. Is that also going to be capped to affect only 6 allies?

Kililin · May 2014

there should be no aoe cap at all

Its that simple and an overwhelming majority agrees.

ruzlb16_ESO · May 2014

Agreed - can can kinda see having the cap on damaging AOEs (even though I disagree with it), but for negate it's stupid.

NordJitsu · May 2014

And if you aren't going to reverse your decision on this one ZOS, I'd really like to have these skill points refunded.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ and @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Do you plan to refund skill points for changes like this? You're doing it for the bash spammers, but their style is still viable, just not OP (seen it in action on the PTS, bash spam is still great.)

This skill on the other hand is going from "very useful in limited situations" to "why would I ever touch that?"

Luvsfuzzybunnies · May 2014

I cant suprees the entire enemy zerg while nuking them anymore you must be joking? If you nerf this it will only put our sorc class further behind cause then I will have to actually get hit while I bolt around and spam impulse and crystal shards while one shotting noobs. They are noobs btw I prove it by one shotting them. I mean come on there are hardly any sorcs playing right now as it is and if you make slight changes like this then it will only decrease the amount even further.

Luvsfuzzybunnies · May 2014

So yeah nerf dks, nerf templars, and nerf nightblades for sure. Sorcs are fine as is though in fact if anything they may need a slight damage buff and bolt escape magicka cost decrease to put them on par with the rest of the classes in this game. Can you please please make people see this?

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO · May 2014

There should be no cap whatsoever for all the skills in the game.

You nailed it in the head. Its true that the cap breaks some skills alot more then others. Only strenghtens my belief that it was never intended to have it this way and the 6 cap was just a poor excuse they came up with.

Its stil fun to use it on smallscale and it has such a sweet synergy when paired with caltrops and a dk talons/banner, 2 bad its utterly useless vs large groups. Dont get me wrong, i stil have it on my bar and use it, its just that its not worth dropping if you fight against organized groups.

NordJitsu · May 2014

@Luvsfuzzybunnies‌

I'm not sure what your rant has to do with Negate Magic or AoE Caps.

You seem to be randomly spewing nonsense about general class balance.

If you'd like to continue doing so, I suggest doing it in another thread. You're off topic and if it continues I'll be reporting it as such.

Anyway, this isn't a Sorc thing. I also think Caltrops should have a much higher target cap or none at all since its an AoE. Nova and Dragon Knight standard should have no caps. Basically anything ground based that can be moved out of.

ChairGraveyard · May 2014

Yep, Negate Magic is already limited in usefulness in PvP - with a 6 target cap it will be basically useless entirely.

It also makes it very weak in PvE, as right now it's a semi-effective "Oh crap!" skill to get you out of trouble, but if it only affects a handful of mobs, e.g., in a 4-man dungeon, it won't be useful for that either.

NordJitsu · May 2014

ruzlb16_ESO wrote: »

Agreed - can can kinda see having the cap on damaging AOEs (even though I disagree with it), but for negate it's stupid.

Pretty much how I feel.

I don't like the caps much to begin with, but they are bearable on some skills.

Capping Negate Magic will instantly make it trash though. Might as well replace it with something else if you're not going to add a SERIOUS damage component to it as well.

Zintair · May 2014

I agree 100% with this thread. Negate magic is a bubble and is therefore dictated by GTAoE rules and not casting on an enemy or anything like that.

It should effect ANY who are inside the bubble. Other skills I don't have a problem with the 6 cap such as DK standard. However with Negate Magic I feel this needs to remain powerful so that it will help destroy turtle balls.

One turtle zerg of 30 players on top of each other is owned with focused Negate Magic and siege/AoE damage.

NordJitsu · May 2014

@Zintair‌

Hit the nail on the head.

I'd really like some comment on this.

This skill will be completely broken by this change for any fight involving more than 6 targets.

Luvsfuzzybunnies · May 2014

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Luvsfuzzybunnies‌

I'm not sure what your rant has to do with Negate Magic or AoE Caps.

You seem to be randomly spewing nonsense about general class balance.

If you'd like to continue doing so, I suggest doing it in another thread. You're off topic and if it continues I'll be reporting it as such.

Anyway, this isn't a Sorc thing. I also think Caltrops should have a much higher target cap or none at all since its an AoE. Nova and Dragon Knight standard should have no caps. Basically anything ground based that can be moved out of.

Don't be mad at me for pointing out your logic of I can't kill everything they must be OP( I need a buff in this case since all other aoe abilities will have a cap but I dont want mine to have one). I killed you haha stfu noob that you seem to say everyone else has. You call for nerfs on most other classes but say sorcs are fine. I get it you play a sorc and want to be able to kill everything(you say you want it balanced but your arguments prove otherwise). You're biased towards your class as has been stated and why not be you play that class, and you want it to be good right? I am just trying to point out how hypocritical you are being. Then to try to defend your crying by saying I'm just making suggestions... What are all the other people who are proposing good fixes for the abilities you so vehemently defend doing? Oh thats right they are gonna change the game for the better and make your class slightly less powerful so then you threaten to quit. Omg don't let him quit we need him he is defending the OP abilities and accusing others of being bad we need him here. So I say report me if you want for being off topic when I am clearly saying that all aoe abilities need a target cap(which happens to be on topic). Maybe more than 6 targets but whatever it is it needs to be standardized for all AOE abilities not just the templar heals. So sure I could have just come out and said that plainly but I chose to poke fun a bit for you insisting that sorcs are fine as is except they need to not have AOE caps.

TL:DR
The jist of the post is. If someone speaks against your point of view is it incoherent babble you don't understand cause it's not gonna help you. Sorry you couldn't see I was posting on the hypocrisy of your laments of other classes while crying for buffs to yours. Which is pretty well on topic if not for any other reason to disagree with your OP AOE should have a target cap on it.

Mykah · May 2014

If negate magic had no cap a single sorc could negate the efforts of 100 other players with a single keystroke. Pretty OP.

6 players countered by 1 player pushing 1 button is pretty powerfull as it is.

NordJitsu · May 2014

@Luvsfuzzybunnies‌

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NordJitsu · May 2014

Mykah wrote: »

If negate magic had no cap a single sorc could negate the efforts of 100 other players with a single keystroke. Pretty OP.

6 players countered by 1 player pushing 1 button is pretty powerfull as it is.

Well the only way you could ever hit 100 players is if they all turtled up on top each other.

Even then, the Counter to Negate Magic is simple, like it is for Dragon Knight standard: WALK OUT OF IT.

I don't think either of those skills should have a target cap. If you stay in the Area, you should get affected.

TheGrandAlliance · May 2014

This thread is stupid: Without AoE cap limits you would just use the "turtle" strategy in reverse. One use of the skill would heal an entire raid.

AoE caps are there for a reason. Stop /elitewhine over this nonsense and accept the Inconvient Truth.

Gloran · May 2014

AOE cap in general is quite the disappointment, for anything, do not approve.
But I guess we'll have to bear with it, zergers wanna zerg.
"Elitists" will ruin all the fun and gameplay experience for normal "casual" players.
They pay the bills, it's a financial decison.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO · May 2014

ChairGraveyard wrote: »

Yep, Negate Magic is already limited in usefulness in PvP - with a 6 target cap it will be basically useless entirely.

It also makes it very weak in PvE, as right now it's a semi-effective "Oh crap!" skill to get you out of trouble, but if it only affects a handful of mobs, e.g., in a 4-man dungeon, it won't be useful for that either.

Actualy in pve you will nearly not notice any difference since you wont be fighting more then 5-6 mobs at the same time. 15 seconds of normal mobs doing (bosses, giants, etc, are not affected by it) is plenty of time to finish them off withouth even getting hit.

In dungeon there are sittuations where there are waaay more then 5 mobs, for that sittuation is useless and you're better off using atronarch or overcharge, its not only negate magic that is affected by the cap limit, its all skills, they artificialy made some dungeon sittuations into a dice rolling c**p, if you're lucky and skills land on whom they should you win, if not..well..wipe and repeat.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO · May 2014

Gloran wrote: »

AOE cap in general is quite the disappointment, for anything, do not approve.
But I guess we'll have to bear with it, zergers wanna zerg.
"Elitists" will ruin all the fun and gameplay experience for normal "casual" players.
They pay the bills, it's a financial decison.

Give them time

more and more will start to understand just how bad aoe capping is.

ruzlb16_ESO · May 2014

I'd also be happy if they kept the 6-taget cap and moved it from an Ultimate to a normal Majicka ability. Or even if they moved it to Mage's Guild so everyone can use it. But with a target cap, Negate simply doesn't compete with the other ultimates.

Compare it yourself:

Storm Atro costs less, causes a stun on players (not just monsters) for just as long, causes very high damage on top, and summons a taunting, very tough tank for half a minute. Oh, and just in case that's not enough, it has a synergy.

Energy Overload allows you to restore mana from light weapon attacks at a tiny ultimate cost per shot, empowers those attacks, and costs next to nothing to activate.

Negate Silences 6 random people under a dome and removes Placed AOEs from the ground beneath it.

Negate either needs it's cost reduced MASSIVELY (it's 250 Ulti ffs), or needs to do more than silence/stun 6 random targets under the dome if it's supposed to be an ultimate. Otherwise we're going to be seeing a lot more atronarchs around.

NordJitsu · May 2014

@TheGrandAlliance‌

Elite whine is a new concept for me, lol. Seems its usually "noob whine" that ruins MMOs. I know that people have already left this game because they're concerned that AoE caps will remove the ability of small, organized, and skilled groups to take out large, mindless, unskilled zergs.

But on this ability in particular I just don't understand the rationale behind it.

Like I said earlier though, I'd settle for AT LEAST a bit of clarification about how the target cap system works in this game.

Say there are 10 players rushing through a keep breech. Of these 10 players 6 of them are shield spamming stamina based DKs (FOTM right now.) The other four are split evenly between 2 magicka based healers and 2 magicka based ranged DPS'ers.

Now if I drop Negate Magic on that group, how does the game determine who gets hit? What if it hits the 6 stamina based DKs? What good has the spell done me if the healers can still heal and the damagers can still damage.

If someone else drops a second Negate Magic, will it hit the 4 unaffected targets? Or is the process random, meaning that there could be overlap, leading to some of the magicka based characters being unaffected? You'd hope two Negate Magics with a 6 target cap each can hit 10 people if they are overlaid. But who knows?

NordJitsu · May 2014

ruzlb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd also be happy if they kept the 6-taget cap and moved it from an Ultimate to a normal Majicka ability.

That's not a half bad idea actually.

They could replace Daedric Mines or Rune Prison with Negate Magic and then give us a real Ultimate instead.

The other option would be to return Negate Magick to its Beta forum which included a damage component as well.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO · May 2014

NordJitsu wrote: »

@TheGrandAlliance‌

Elite whine is a new concept for me, lol. Seems its usually "noob whine" that ruins MMOs. I know that people have already left this game because they're concerned that AoE caps will remove the ability of small, organized, and skilled groups to take out large, mindless, unskilled zergs.

But on this ability in particular I just don't understand the rationale behind it.

Like I said earlier though, I'd settle for AT LEAST a bit of clarification about how the target cap system works in this game.

Say there are 10 players rushing through a keep breech. Of these 10 players 6 of them are shield spamming stamina based DKs (FOTM right now.) The other four are split evenly between 2 magicka based healers and 2 magicka based ranged DPS'ers.

Now if I drop Negate Magic on that group, how does the game determine who gets hit? What if it hits the 6 stamina based DKs? What good has the spell done me if the healers can still heal and the damagers can still damage.

If someone else drops a second Negate Magic, will it hit the 4 unaffected targets? Or is the process random, meaning that there could be overlap, leading to some of the magicka based characters being unaffected? You'd hope two Negate Magics with a 6 target cap each can hit 10 people if they are overlaid. But who knows?

Completly random, the same way as aoe damage split is decided, not very reliable but what is with a 6 cap...

Luvsfuzzybunnies · May 2014

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Luvsfuzzybunnies‌

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Hey if you think anything of what i said was hurtful or slanderous please link it. Tell me where i was bashing and I will review my comment and make amends as needed. But when I point out what is happening and there is written proof then there is no slander only recapping the facts. I was being constructive. I said I agree with a cap to AOE as long as it is the same across the board. Correct I didn't agree with your argument, but discussions are rarely one sided. So basically none of what you highlighted in the Code of Conduct was infringed upon. In an argument you have to be willing to see the case in point from both sides and you clearly do not. Sorry you feel a disagreement was meant to hurt your bum it was not intended that way. Carry on but do not expect me to just sit here and say oh yeah the overpowered abilities are ok and this guy has so many valid points when you haven't made any regarding this ability so far. Gotta be able to take disagreement as well as give it I hear or you just come off sounding like a whiny baby.

It seems I made it pretty clear for people who didn't wanna read my wall of text in the TL:DR portion. I disagree with unlimited AOE if all classes have the same cap there is no reason to complain from a balance standpoint. If you wanna refute that give me good reason for and and try to change my mind don't try to scare me by threatening me with things I did not do(it won't work i am capable of thinking).

beowulfsshield · May 2014

If I can't negate and nuke spam 47 mobs or players at once, I'll just unsub. It will completely wreck the class.

NordJitsu · May 2014

@beowulfsshield‌

No need to exaggerate. It will only ruin this ability and the corresponding builds.

eliisra · May 2014

It's not about Negate Magic. You can't have GT spells with a 6-man cap, it's a horrible design. You have no control over who gets the buff, heal, dispel etc.

Point of GT spells is standing in them (if friendly) or dodging out (unfriendly).
Now it will be based on rng. I can stand in a protective circle and die, because rng decides I'm not one of the 6 players important enough to get the effect.

If their all hooked on implementing this cap, they also have to give us more control over targeting. Otherwise the combat system will be all about randomness and luck.

ruzlb16_ESO · May 2014

NordJitsu wrote: »

That's not a half bad idea actually.

They could replace Daedric Mines or Rune Prison with Negate Magic and then give us a real Ultimate instead.

I'd be entirely happy to dump Mines for it, tbh. Or for Negate to be a much more reasonable 90 Ulti so you could use it 2-3 times in a fight. But uncapped it just about justifies its absurdly high cost compared to the other two Ultimates; with a 6-random-target cap it really doesn't unless it goes up to a full stun in excess of 6 seconds (otherwise, the atro will still be a way better choice, given he stuns 6 people for 3 seconds and then proceeds to punch them in the face).

And again, if people are concerned about this buffing sorcs too much, I'd be entirely happy to see it in mage's guild so everyone can use it - Negate Magic would probably be a better choice than the horrendously powerful Meteor, which is probably gonna be a target for nerf spam in a couple of weeks too (once people have actually bothered going and finding the books for MG10 and start chain-casting it with the Shooting Star Ulti rebate morph and ulti cost reduction gear).

NordJitsu · May 2014

eliisra wrote: »

It's not about Negate Magic. You can't have GT spells with a 6-man cap, it's a horrible design. You have no control over who gets the buff, heal, dispel etc.

Point of GT spells is standing in them (if friendly) or dodging out (unfriendly).
Now it will be based on rng. I can stand in a protective circle and die, because rng decides I'm not one of the 6 players important enough to get the effect.

If their all hooked on implementing this cap, they also have to give us more control over targeting. Otherwise the combat system will be all about randomness and luck.

@eliisra‌

I agree. GTAoE spells in general shouldn't have an AoE cap. I just thought that given what this ability actually DOES for you, an AoE cap is particularly absurd in this case.

Its not even "which random targets am I going to heal" or "which random targets am I going to damage" its "which random targets am I going to silence." For a skill that's only good against casters, this makes it pretty trash in big fights.

I'm liking @ruzlb16_ESO‌ 's ideas. Adding back the damage would work, making the stun apply to players as well as monsters could kinda help a little bit, reducing the cost could help, moving it out of the sorcerer tree would be fine by me, or leaving it as is but turning it into a normal non-ultimate are all viable options as far as I'm concerned.