Is it worth it to lose customers just to close threads that give feedback about ZOS?

Ruj · July 16

Whenever I think about returning to ESO, I check out the forums.

1) I remember there is no section for housing, so I have to go browse through all kinds of topics to read what I want. (Any updates on furniture item increase, the ability to remove pre-existing buildings, or being able to purchase making any outdoor home have 700 slots)

2) Almost every thread I click on because I'm interested in has been closed down by a forum moderator because it's a "duplicate" (yet they all have had new news or an interesting topic, etc)

These are 1) frustrating and 2) leave an awful impression.

I'm left with an impression of ZOS that they don't believe in free speech, which is wild because I thought the company was in the Seattle area? Since when do people in my area behave like tyrannic overloads on freedom of speech?

None of these topics had anything hateful, rude, offensive, etc.

I keep hoping ZOS shapes up. I check back every few months. Every few months, I'm both relieved I unsubscribed and heartbroken because I obviously love what this game has the potential to offer in housing.

How does a company leave such a bad impression on customers that even those who love an aspect of the game feel like we have to morally not give the company money?
I have zero issue throwing money at a game's subscription or cosmetic cash shop, but ESO forums treat players so badly that I'd feel like an awful person giving the company even a penny.

I ask ESO players how they handle this. Most have told me that they discuss ESO on Reddit or in their private Discords.
Essentially, ZOS has robbed itself of the most valuable thing the company could freely obtain: player feedback.

Clearly the company's shareholders are happy enough with the current profit margin that they don't want more profit. The forums are filled with moderators basically making sure players quit ESO.

LunaFlora · July 16

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/gamesystems
Game Systems is the forum category for Housing posts.

you can look at all the different categories here ↓
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/

ZOS closes down duplicate threads so they can more easily find feedback as it's then only in one thread. it's why there's an official Overland difficulty feedback thread.

Malyore · July 16

LunaFlora wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/gamesystems
Game Systems is the forum category for Housing posts.

you can look at all the different categories here ↓
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/

ZOS closes down duplicate threads so they can more easily find feedback as it's then only in one thread. it's why there's an official Overland difficulty feedback thread.

The confusing part is they will also often ask you to instead make duplicate threads and close down current threads that have all sorts of good information, simply because the thread was made a while ago. I've seen ones that are less than a year old get closed and asked by mods for a new one to be made, which completely takes out any momentum in the discussion being had.

karthrag_inak · July 16

Khajiit cannot fathom even thinking "since the forums don't measure up to exacting standards, this one will not play the game, so there -pbpbpbpbt-", let alone saying it out loud.

MasterSpatula · July 16

Microsoft is in the Seattle area (Redmond, to be precise, IIRC), but I believe Bethesda is in Maryland.

Over-moderation of this forum, to the detriment of the performance its function, has been a complaint around here for years. There've been promises to address it, but the problem seems only to grow worse.

Of course, I'm not a particularly big fan of the term over-moderation. It implies moderator actions are excessive, when quite often it would be more accurate to call them completely unwarranted. Moving threads to sub-fora where they have little to no relevance, punishing posters who call out bad behavior while leaving the bad behavior untouched, and of course the sadly-consistent laughable misuses of the word bashing are a depressingly regular occurrence around here.

It shouldn't affect my affection for the game itself, but it does. Particularly egregious bad behavior here has led to a couple of vacations from the game for me. I'm getting to the point where I feel if I ever give up the game for good, it'll be due to bad behavior here more than bad decisions by the devs.

Vonnegut2506 · July 16

Anyone quitting the game over the forums was just looking for a reason to quit the game.

spartaxoxo · July 16

Most every game forum closes outdated posts and spam on their forums. I don't personally know any game that does not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Cooperharley · July 16

I don't think i've ever met anyone that quit the game because they didn't like the forums. Crazy.

Wish ya the best, peace!

MorallyBipolar · July 17

I've never been a member of a forum that is moderated as this one is. Never.

And yes, ZOS has absolutely lost customers because of the treatment they get on this forum. This forum is part of the game and part of ZOS. Can't be on the forum if we don't own the game. The moderators are representatives of ZOS and what they do is representative of how ZOS thinks of their customers.

scrappy1342 · July 17

Ruj wrote: »

I ask ESO players how they handle this.

i dropped my sub, which was the only money they'd been getting from me since i don't agree with the way they do their expacs or the pricing on them. i'd just wait for them to go to eso+. i'm still going to do that. i just have to wait for free trials now lol. i just log in for daily bonus and check the forum when i have my coffee. it always makes me feel better about dropping my sub.

Elvenheart · July 17

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit cannot fathom even thinking "since the forums don't measure up to exacting standards, this one will not play the game, so there -pbpbpbpbt-", let alone saying it out loud.

Agreed. Nothing anyone ever says or does on any game’s forums could ever make me stop playing a game if I really enjoyed it. I would sooner just stop reading the forums first. Not playing the game would be like cutting off my nose to spite my face and I would look really funny without a nose.

SeaGtGruff · July 17

Malyore wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/gamesystems
Game Systems is the forum category for Housing posts.

you can look at all the different categories here ↓
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/

ZOS closes down duplicate threads so they can more easily find feedback as it's then only in one thread. it's why there's an official Overland difficulty feedback thread.

The confusing part is they will also often ask you to instead make duplicate threads and close down current threads that have all sorts of good information, simply because the thread was made a while ago. I've seen ones that are less than a year old get closed and asked by mods for a new one to be made, which completely takes out any momentum in the discussion being had.

I wish there were a way for them to merge "duplicate" threads instead of just closing them down, as is possible with some forum software. I don't know if the software used here has that capability, and I realize that it isn't always a good idea to just merge two separate-but-similar conversations together, but it seems like locking 'duplicate" threads is one of the things that can set some people off.

Liukke · July 17

In regards of the housing section, as already mentioned it's there in the Game Systems category, they might word it better but it exists.

As for closing posts I can't blame forums mods for that, they have a tough life

We're like children quite often, if we're left to splurge our frustrations on every topic, things would get so toxic you wouldn't definitely want to login.

I see a healthy amount of discussion here, with negative feedbacks always being rather visible and uncensored (heck I really have to insult somebody to have the mods edit my posts).

Also don't forget that forum mods are not the developers, they can't reply every question or be "useful". The best they can do is to collect data and forward it to whoever has the job of translating it to the developers, and to inform us when decision have been made.
If they close posts, if they take drastic measures, there's a reason and they are always polite and biased towards us.

Give them a break :P

Synaptic · July 17

They are absolutely against free speech. Look up the whole PvP chat ban debacle, that one's always good for a laugh

But yeah, what happens on the forums shouldn't really affect your experience with the game that much.

Destai · July 17

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/gamesystems
Game Systems is the forum category for Housing posts.

you can look at all the different categories here ↓
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/

ZOS closes down duplicate threads so they can more easily find feedback as it's then only in one thread. it's why there's an official Overland difficulty feedback thread.

The confusing part is they will also often ask you to instead make duplicate threads and close down current threads that have all sorts of good information, simply because the thread was made a while ago. I've seen ones that are less than a year old get closed and asked by mods for a new one to be made, which completely takes out any momentum in the discussion being had.

I wish there were a way for them to merge "duplicate" threads instead of just closing them down, as is possible with some forum software. I don't know if the software used here has that capability, and I realize that it isn't always a good idea to just merge two separate-but-similar conversations together, but it seems like locking 'duplicate" threads is one of the things that can set some people off.

I have suggested to Kevin numerous times that they post a link to the closed discussion in the master thread. So far, that suggestion hasn’t been acknowledged or implemented.

Tandor · July 17

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/gamesystems
Game Systems is the forum category for Housing posts.

you can look at all the different categories here ↓
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/

ZOS closes down duplicate threads so they can more easily find feedback as it's then only in one thread. it's why there's an official Overland difficulty feedback thread.

The confusing part is they will also often ask you to instead make duplicate threads and close down current threads that have all sorts of good information, simply because the thread was made a while ago. I've seen ones that are less than a year old get closed and asked by mods for a new one to be made, which completely takes out any momentum in the discussion being had.

I wish there were a way for them to merge "duplicate" threads instead of just closing them down, as is possible with some forum software. I don't know if the software used here has that capability, and I realize that it isn't always a good idea to just merge two separate-but-similar conversations together, but it seems like locking 'duplicate" threads is one of the things that can set some people off.

What would be better would be if people checked the front page of the forum and if they found an existing thread covering their point then added to it rather than thinking that their opinion was so important that it merited launching a duplicate thread.

In other words, if the locking of duplicate threads is a problem then the solution is in the players' own hands, and always has been.

LootAllTheStuff · July 17

Malyore wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/gamesystems
Game Systems is the forum category for Housing posts.

you can look at all the different categories here ↓
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/

ZOS closes down duplicate threads so they can more easily find feedback as it's then only in one thread. it's why there's an official Overland difficulty feedback thread.

The confusing part is they will also often ask you to instead make duplicate threads and close down current threads that have all sorts of good information, simply because the thread was made a while ago. I've seen ones that are less than a year old get closed and asked by mods for a new one to be made, which completely takes out any momentum in the discussion being had.

Speaking as a former forum moderator for a different game, there is always some tension between "no necros" and "no duplicates". I don't know if ZOS moderators have an agreed policy for how long is too long, but there does come a point at which it's better to start a new thread. In the case of ESO, I'd suggest one consideration is when updates have sufficiently changed something that the original discussion is no longer accurate or relevant.

And to answer another question in this thread, I had asked at one point if the Vanilla forum platform supported things like thread merge, and the answer was "no". I would guess that this also means it doesn't support thread splitting either.

Four_Fingers · July 17

Vanilla forums most certainly does support thread merging.
https://success.vanillaforums.com/kb/articles/96-manage-posts-with-split-merge

Heren · July 17

It can be debated but I don't think free speech should mean no moderation whatsoever. There is often a ( genuine or not ) complain, mostly from some people, that free speech should be an absolute thing, even when there is actual laws, not just the TOS of a company, but laws in nations that both guarantee a degree of free speech ( and often a ery high degree of it ) and define, and enforce some limits of that freedom of speech.

You can't have total freedom of expression, maybe even more so in a place such as these forums. A balance is needed, between enough freedom ( and there is a high degree of freedom of speech here I think ), civility ( it's also important ), compliance with some laws ( I would say it's obvious, but hey ), and readability.

Now I agree that sometime, moderation is a bit over-agressive, but it may also just be a 'stick to the rules' thing - prune every duplicate in sight without other consideration. In the end, I guess most moderator are just agents, they don't make judgments, they enforce the rules.

But there could more subtle approaches indeed.

Now as for the question in the title ( which is a bit... baity ), I don't think people quitting over ( perceived ? ) excessive moderation are that important. And more often I'd say, it's ( perceived ? ) excessive moderation in addition with a lot of other grudges, so the moderation part is most likely not that relevant.

But while I'm saying that, I will also add that I don't think everything is perfect in the way ZOS communicate with / respond to their customers, and I understand some people can grow disappointed with ZOS.

ToddIngram · July 17

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/gamesystems
Game Systems is the forum category for Housing posts.

you can look at all the different categories here ↓
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/

ZOS closes down duplicate threads so they can more easily find feedback as it's then only in one thread. it's why there's an official Overland difficulty feedback thread.

The confusing part is they will also often ask you to instead make duplicate threads and close down current threads that have all sorts of good information, simply because the thread was made a while ago. I've seen ones that are less than a year old get closed and asked by mods for a new one to be made, which completely takes out any momentum in the discussion being had.

I wish there were a way for them to merge "duplicate" threads instead of just closing them down, as is possible with some forum software. I don't know if the software used here has that capability, and I realize that it isn't always a good idea to just merge two separate-but-similar conversations together, but it seems like locking 'duplicate" threads is one of the things that can set some people off.

The forum I moderated had a merge thread option, and that was over 10 years ago. Can't imagine a newer vanilla forum not having the same feature.