HOT TAKE: Make RAVENWATCH NO-PROC again

ADawg · July 9

I'm reading the overwhelmingly obvious gushing for vengeance being a good thing and it makes me wonder....

If the vast majority of you all enjoy a more SIMPLE Cyrodiil...where were you when RAVENWATCH was no proc? We had a solid small community that really enjoyed the simplicity of NO-CP and NO PROCS. I am seeing comment after comment how the main CP+Proc campaign is not "FUN"...uhhh AGREED and that's EXACTLY why we loved old RAVENWATCH!!!!!

The previous ruleset was great in my OPINION because it did the following:

1. Simplified gearing. No new DLC sets to worry about "breaking" PVP, just oldschool stat sets with some mild procs and a few selectable mythics
2. NO-CP. Just like BATTLEGROUNDS (which many enjoy for PVP) it didn't matter how much CP you had, because it was disabled. Just get your 160 for gear, easy!
3. New players: I personally got several people not only into ESO, but into PVP. Getting them a lvl 50/CP160 character was low effort compared to grinding out DLC dungeons and CP to be "meta"

Now if you want to make Cyrodiil PERFECT (according to me) this is what we need:

1. NO-CP
2. NO procs (like before)
3. Expand the allowable list to include group buff sets and food/drink sets ie: Nearby group members gain x health or mag recovery, etc. That's not exactly a "proc"
4. Remove Volendrung for the love of GOD (especially in low population scenarios). Its a meme and its annoying
5. Improve base DEFENSE mechanics, especially for HOME TRI KEEPS! this gives under-populated factions a chance versus larger zergs.
6. Expand on the Lumber Mill, Farm, Mine mechanics and keep leveling system to reward defenses further.
7. Keep a running list of no kidding approved sets made available to the community so there is no confusion of allowed sets.

CameraBeardThePirate · July 9

The big issue was ZOS simply didn't provide any sort of information on what sets did or did not work in No-CP, and they did not keep the list up to date, meaning that there were plenty of sets that shouldn't have worked there that did, and plenty of sets that should have worked there but didn't. Players shouldn't have to search the web to find out what sets did or didn't work, especially when the logic behind which sets worked wasn't remotely consistent.

Plus, Cyrodiil's population is just too low at this point to sustain multiple campaigns. It's obvious at this point that the first campaign listed will be the only one that gets any action no matter what the rulesets are.

MincMincMinc · July 9

What needs to happen is condense the campaigns down to two. (unless crossplay happens and we need a 3rd). Cyrodil was never designed to function with low populaitons. The map layout, the bonuses, etc. The only reason cyro live GH feels remotely populated is because mounts move 3x faster so respawn times are insignificant.

A major PvP issue is that no new players are able to start and learn cyrodil even though it is the biggest eye candy for new players. Lowbie doesn't work because people level out of it too fast with modern XP structure. No guilds run there anymore so the population gets unstable and one faction flips the whole map because the winning faction gets combat bonuses.

Just have GH and then a nocp campaign where new players and under cp500 players are FORCED to play. Letting new players who dont know better que into cp pvp is only hurting retention. Sure there will be niche scenarios where a god tier player makes a new account and cant play GH for a month or two.... thats a shame that you need to relevel, but so be it.

MincMincMinc · July 9

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The big issue was ZOS simply didn't provide any sort of information on what sets did or did not work in No-CP, and they did not keep the list up to date, meaning that there were plenty of sets that shouldn't have worked there that did, and plenty of sets that should have worked there but didn't. Players shouldn't have to search the web to find out what sets did or didn't work, especially when the logic behind which sets worked wasn't remotely consistent.

Plus, Cyrodiil's population is just too low at this point to sustain multiple campaigns. It's obvious at this point that the first campaign listed will be the only one that gets any action no matter what the rulesets are.

TBF half of their newer designs require you to go to 3rd party wiki's. Plenty of dungeon mechanics make no sense. Things like offbalance still have no definition, even the wiki's are all over the place. Plenty of sets ingame are tooltipped wrong. Quite a few skills that dont function how the tooltips are written.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

blktauna · July 9

This is where I'd like the Vengence pyp campaign to be. Template sets, pvp only skills, no CP, no hammer. For no cheese, no busted BS balance I like the idea of PVP versions of sets and skills so they can be balanced better and not dependent on extra calcs from battle spirit.

ADawg · July 10

blktauna wrote: »

This is where I'd like the Vengence pyp campaign to be. Template sets, pvp only skills, no CP, no hammer. For no cheese, no busted BS balance I like the idea of PVP versions of sets and skills so they can be balanced better and not dependent on extra calcs from battle spirit.

My issue is I play this game to theory craft builds and use those unique builds in PVP. I don't chase META, never have. I was playing Bow Necro back when bow AND Necro were D tier at best. Why? because I WANTED TO. I made the build I WANTED to play.

Template PVP turns this MMORPG into not an MMORPG, but more of a MMO-Arena.

Limiting choices because people cant [offensive opinion incoming] "figure it out" is not my problem.

That's like saying "your NFL receiver is too fast, we should limit run speed in football to make it fair." WHAT!? orrr you could train/research/test things like the rest of us and find a combo that works.

ADawg · July 10

MincMincMinc wrote: »

What needs to happen is condense the campaigns down to two. (unless crossplay happens and we need a 3rd). Cyrodil was never designed to function with low populaitons. The map layout, the bonuses, etc. The only reason cyro live GH feels remotely populated is because mounts move 3x faster so respawn times are insignificant.

A major PvP issue is that no new players are able to start and learn cyrodil even though it is the biggest eye candy for new players. Lowbie doesn't work because people level out of it too fast with modern XP structure. No guilds run there anymore so the population gets unstable and one faction flips the whole map because the winning faction gets combat bonuses.
Just have GH and then a nocp campaign where new players and under cp500 players are FORCED to play. Letting new players who dont know better que into cp pvp is only hurting retention. Sure there will be niche scenarios where a god tier player makes a new account and cant play GH for a month or two.... thats a shame that you need to relevel, but so be it.

Just make all PVP no CP. Thats how BGs are and we all like it. I don't see an issue. CP is a crutch for build design anywya. IMO it makes people lazy because they go "Oh i'll just get sustain in CP, or ill balance out my defense with CP". No, design your build better.

Also, hopping from BGs to CP GH means your stats are always different between the 2.

Again, my point in this thread is: Majority wants simple/limited Vengeance when Ravenwatch no proc LITERALLY simplified it while retaining build choice...

Joy_Division · July 10

ADawg wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

What needs to happen is condense the campaigns down to two. (unless crossplay happens and we need a 3rd). Cyrodil was never designed to function with low populaitons. The map layout, the bonuses, etc. The only reason cyro live GH feels remotely populated is because mounts move 3x faster so respawn times are insignificant.

A major PvP issue is that no new players are able to start and learn cyrodil even though it is the biggest eye candy for new players. Lowbie doesn't work because people level out of it too fast with modern XP structure. No guilds run there anymore so the population gets unstable and one faction flips the whole map because the winning faction gets combat bonuses.
Just have GH and then a nocp campaign where new players and under cp500 players are FORCED to play. Letting new players who dont know better que into cp pvp is only hurting retention. Sure there will be niche scenarios where a god tier player makes a new account and cant play GH for a month or two.... thats a shame that you need to relevel, but so be it.

Just make all PVP no CP. Thats how BGs are and we all like it. I don't see an issue. CP is a crutch for build design anywya. IMO it makes people lazy because they go "Oh i'll just get sustain in CP, or ill balance out my defense with CP". No, design your build better.

Also, hopping from BGs to CP GH means your stats are always different between the 2.

Again, my point in this thread is: Majority wants simple/limited Vengeance when Ravenwatch no proc LITERALLY simplified it while retaining build choice...

I don't think you understand the appeal of Vengeance. People liked it because there was a big population, epic battles, and the barrier to entry was not sky high as it is on Live. The builds that a re possible with the powercreep that has entered the game makes ESO PvP is very unforgiving and all but impossible for an average player to accomplish anything except getting farmed. It's still possible to have these powerful builds with no weaknesses without CP and procs; especially so with sub-classing. They didn;t run to RW then and won't if the campaign ever came back

colossalvoids · July 10

Thinking that after "some" refinement veng is what no-cp would become as it was already dead and buried couple of times. Was a main of that campaign years ago but there's no audience now to hop back no matter what you do, you need new or forced audience first to bring something back. Honestly I see no point in no cp no proc as is (even if I liked the environment) if there's still same pop caps, GH minded audience and overall the same ruleset (cross healing etc).

Heren · July 10

I hate to say that, for I was happy in no-proc Ravenwatch, but it became absolutely dead in the end and if reenabled as a no-proc campaign it will be a dead one ( I don't know how it fare currently, but I would be surprised it is thriving ). Like other have said, ESO population is just too low at this point, and this need to be accounted for.

Sluggy · July 10

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The big issue was ZOS simply didn't provide any sort of information on what sets did or did not work in No-CP, and they did not keep the list up to date, meaning that there were plenty of sets that shouldn't have worked there that did, and plenty of sets that should have worked there but didn't. Players shouldn't have to search the web to find out what sets did or didn't work, especially when the logic behind which sets worked wasn't remotely consistent.

Plus, Cyrodiil's population is just too low at this point to sustain multiple campaigns. It's obvious at this point that the first campaign listed will be the only one that gets any action no matter what the rulesets are.

Quoted for truth and emphasis.

blktauna · July 10

RW problem was no one knew what worked and what didn't. So it was the same BS cheese as GH and Blackreach.

I'd love a non broken build, non exploiting separate from pve skillset campaign.

Iriidius · July 24

Ravenwatch was already dead the moment procset got disabled because everyone wanting procbuilds instantly left and everyone wanting to stay first had to make new build and everyone wanting to change from cp campaign had to leave everyone he knows behind to resettle a dead campaig.
Ravenwatch is even more dead after reenabling procs.

Iriidius · July 24

They should have turned blackreach into noproc campaign as it was not very populated anyway nor balanced and more of a empfarm / guest campaign when main campaign is full.
Few players and less guilds favored it and would have missed it so not much to destroy.
Ravenwatch was a campaign full of proc enjoyers and groups in groupbuilds.
Nocp makes procs stronger and the only way to get many things while with cp you could have used occult overload to bomb replacing VD/plaguebreak.
Siege in nocp is also weaker reducing another way to kill outnumbered.

Iriidius · July 24

At least during Midyear they could have made one of the 2 new nocp campaigns noproc or maybe one of the 2 new cp ones.
Player numbers are bigger and event campaign still dead anyway.

Iriidius · July 24

But somehow ZOS is against choice. When noproc was a thing nocp IC was noproc too and during Midyear Mayham even on both campaigns.
Noproc not that great for fighting IC NPCs that are still as strong as with procs.

Iriidius · July 24

Group buff sets including those without condition should stay disabled. They favor big groups with higher numbers zerging and still have to calculate if group members are in range or not.

MincMincMinc · July 24

The "newer" player servers are non functional mainly because they do not have a flow of new players. BGs are far more new player friendly than modern day cyrodil. Cyrodil as it stands simply doesnt work when a population loses balance....which happens all the time with new players since waves come and go.

Players level so fast now adays that u lvl 50 pvp is a ghost town since it takes a day to hit lvl50 and go to vet GH. Noproc gameplay wise was much better for learning, but there was nothing to teach or introduce new players into it. At the same time players just flock to the horde which was GH pop lock.

Make live have 2 campaigns. One VET CP and one NOCP. With the caveat that players under 750cp can't even see the VET CP campaign.
For noproc to work there has to be an introduction or list or easy way to make the gear. For example there could be an AP vendor that sells all of the enabled gear. The problem is that the list of gear they made is all over the place, consisting of crafted, dungeon, zone, etc. If all crafted gear was enabled that is much easier to understand and go setup. Or if the only enabled gear came from a vendor you can go look at whats available and get it.

Diundriel · July 24

and before no proc, no cp campaign (sotha sil back then) was actually one if not the most played campaign.
atleast on PC EU most of the good ball groups and a lot of smallscalers played proc no cp.

in the end it all comes down to shrinking player base... and sth to think about maybe the player base is not just shrinking but rather shifting towards solo questers etc...
maybe it is all coming down to a simplistic vengeance campaign in the future ...

or maybe those kind of new players actually need a warning that they need to change their oakensoul quester builds to sth that can survive in solo pvp to not quit it after 5min

Diundriel · July 24

ADawg wrote: »

Now if you want to make Cyrodiil PERFECT (according to me) this is what we need:

1. NO-CP
2. NO procs (like before)
3. Expand the allowable list to include group buff sets and food/drink sets ie: Nearby group members gain x health or mag recovery, etc. That's not exactly a "proc"
4. Remove Volendrung for the love of GOD (especially in low population scenarios). Its a meme and its annoying
5. Improve base DEFENSE mechanics, especially for HOME TRI KEEPS! this gives under-populated factions a chance versus larger zergs.
6. Expand on the Lumber Mill, Farm, Mine mechanics and keep leveling system to reward defenses further.
7. Keep a running list of no kidding approved sets made available to the community so there is no confusion of allowed sets.

i think the easiest way to
- stay close to the current system
- but make newbies feel more powerful
- while not completly breaking the game for group play in keeps

would be:
- nerf plague break completly; keep VD and other sets as is
- buff siege damage dot damage extremly
- make PURGE viable again in group play as old/new counterplay

--> basically META before they introduced plague break

as long as plague break exists it is imposssible to make purge viable counterplay in any pvp scenario ...ball groups just stay heal over times (and completly dropped purge bots) and noobs continue nuking themelves - and all around them - with plague break. They would be better of sieging with even more OP dot damage siege weapons while organized groups still get to have a counterplay (if played well).

but that is just my POV from a group play perspective ...

still mad at them for nerfing the templar heal ultimate completly for cyrodil group play - if you stay static the ultimate shouldnt be negatable - but what do i know ...

CaperGuy · August 20

ADawg wrote: »

I'm reading the overwhelmingly obvious gushing for vengeance being a good thing and it makes me wonder....

If the vast majority of you all enjoy a more SIMPLE Cyrodiil...where were you when RAVENWATCH was no proc? We had a solid small community that really enjoyed the simplicity of NO-CP and NO PROCS. I am seeing comment after comment how the main CP+Proc campaign is not "FUN"...uhhh AGREED and that's EXACTLY why we loved old RAVENWATCH!!!!!

The previous ruleset was great in my OPINION because it did the following:

1. Simplified gearing. No new DLC sets to worry about "breaking" PVP, just oldschool stat sets with some mild procs and a few selectable mythics
2. NO-CP. Just like BATTLEGROUNDS (which many enjoy for PVP) it didn't matter how much CP you had, because it was disabled. Just get your 160 for gear, easy!
3. New players: I personally got several people not only into ESO, but into PVP. Getting them a lvl 50/CP160 character was low effort compared to grinding out DLC dungeons and CP to be "meta"

Now if you want to make Cyrodiil PERFECT (according to me) this is what we need:

1. NO-CP
2. NO procs (like before)
3. Expand the allowable list to include group buff sets and food/drink sets ie: Nearby group members gain x health or mag recovery, etc. That's not exactly a "proc"
4. Remove Volendrung for the love of GOD (especially in low population scenarios). Its a meme and its annoying
5. Improve base DEFENSE mechanics, especially for HOME TRI KEEPS! this gives under-populated factions a chance versus larger zergs.
6. Expand on the Lumber Mill, Farm, Mine mechanics and keep leveling system to reward defenses further.
7. Keep a running list of no kidding approved sets made available to the community so there is no confusion of allowed sets.

I’m just saying…if they were ever to redo no-proc…I’m not maintaining the list of sets this time! lol… it would be someone else’s turn! Though there’s addons now so it could be easier to make it a bit more obvious what works…

RW on Xbox-NA is almost as dead as I’ve ever seen it unfortunately. It’s taken me many years but I’m finally giving up and branching off to BR and GH and BGs.

. RIP Ravenwatch!

xylena_lazarow · August 20

ADawg wrote: »

Now if you want to make Cyrodiil PERFECT (according to me) this is what we need

1: Give Xylena god mode. That's all. FTFY.