MincMincMinc wrote: »

NB doesnt need any combo now. You spam surprise attack and merciless. Hardly a long winded combo.

I see you're being intentionally disingenuous, ignoring the first part of my post: healing being way more overtuned than raw damage. But if pointing the finger at how easy sorc is to play, even (especially?) in 2025 is what you're focusing on... Then I ask you what is easier to play than a crystal weapon bow spam? And somehow it's the 10k merciless shot that is the problem? Which is ironically harder to follow up on a pure NB than it is on a Sorc who dipped into Assassination. Also bold to assume there aren't arcanists out there abusing shields. Or DKs for that matter but they too dipped into Sorc: storm calling specifically.

I realize I'm not gonna get many to agree on my topic. But I didn't expect someone to intentionally nit pick my train of thought. Especially since I did concede, to a point, that a high damage meta is still preferable to a healing one.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Healing on live is just not a major issue. Burst by far exceeds healing in the new meta.

Videos online and posts on other forums disprove this argument. There's a lot of well deserved enmity towards healing. As for your remark regarding the crystal weapons: you do know that is more or less spammable while merciless is not. Not to mention that the numbers are simply not true. If I can crit a surprise attack higher than what merciless crits, then that scaling is just on paper. Although I really doubt the veracity of the stats you provided. Not that it matters because to truly stop a healer fully leaning into... healing. You need to stick several surprise crits into an incap, that wasn't dodged! into a merci crit. I mean this as someone desperately trying to believe everybody telling me that base NB is good: that rarely happens. The results that you are getting are from subclassing Assassination and not by relying on it.

The only reliable way to combat healing is anti healing sets. You know they know healing is a problem if they make broken sets to counteract broken healing.

Last but not least. The people popping powerful ults/shields/heals. When they fight you, do they use one skill then take a break?

Any given problem you can think of on Gray Host is really dozens of other problems in a trench coat.

Erinyes_60 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

NB doesnt need any combo now. You spam surprise attack and merciless. Hardly a long winded combo.

I see you're being intentionally disingenuous, ignoring the first part of my post: healing being way more overtuned than raw damage. But if pointing the finger at how easy sorc is to play, even (especially?) in 2025 is what you're focusing on... Then I ask you what is easier to play than a crystal weapon bow spam? And somehow it's the 10k merciless shot that is the problem? Which is ironically harder to follow up on a pure NB than it is on a Sorc who dipped into Assassination. Also bold to assume there aren't arcanists out there abusing shields. Or DKs for that matter but they too dipped into Sorc: storm calling specifically.

I realize I'm not gonna get many to agree on my topic. But I didn't expect someone to intentionally nit pick my train of thought. Especially since I did concede, to a point, that a high damage meta is still preferable to a healing one.

Who are you fighting to not see higher than 10k spec bows? That skill is literally the hardest hitting skill in the game.

Erinyes_60 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You gave the example of 3 players attacking one and blaming healing because yall couldnt kill them. That is purely a problem on your end, not healing. As Dark just pointed out again, the only issue really is cross heals and over time stacking, which doesn't apply in your scenario as it was a single player.

Once again you're conveniently leaving out entire parts of someone else's statement. That person said "1 player will have 4-5 healing sources equipped as a high damage player". After that they brought up the issue of cross healing.
You shouldn't have high damage if you have high heals and vice versa. That person contributed with a sensible statement instead of defending the same meta since release.

Btw 8k+ tooltip (only on the first hit) for the easiest spammable in the game is the quintessence of balanced... Given how many people rushed to agree with you, there's a general fear of taking away people's easy mode.

I dont even know what you are arguing, its all relative. What difference does it make if they have 20 healing sources of 40 healing sources?

Taking away what? Your statements have been bouncing around too randomly to move in any direction, i'm sorry.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

On the same build
Crystal weapon tooltips for 10513 + 4205
Dizzy tooltips for 15792
merciless tooltips for 26221
dawnbreaker tooltips for 23542

Yeah if I know 2+2 as well as I think I do, I think 26k is higher than 10k+4k

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Erinyes_60 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Who are you fighting to not see higher than 10k spec bows? That skill is literally the hardest hitting skill in the game.

Who were you fighting if spectral is your highest hitting skill? 'Cause I definitely hit harder with less hassle than I did with spectral.

Thats just not how the game works though lol. Again, Merciless is the hardest hitting non-ultimate skill in the game. That's not opinion, that's just fact.

merci was the highest hitting ultimate NB had and its not even an ultimate. Now it has been doubled and given to everyone lol

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Erinyes_60 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Who are you fighting to not see higher than 10k spec bows? That skill is literally the hardest hitting skill in the game.

Who were you fighting if spectral is your highest hitting skill? 'Cause I definitely hit harder with less hassle than I did with spectral.

Thats just not how the game works though lol. Again, Merciless is the hardest hitting non-ultimate skill in the game. That's not opinion, that's just fact.

merci was the highest hitting ultimate NB had and its not even an ultimate. Now it has been doubled and given to everyone lol

Pretty much, there are very few ultimates (like fewer than 5) that hit harder than Merciless, and Merciless can be fired every 5 seconds. There are zero non ultimate single target skills that hit harder than Merciless. In fact, there might not be any skill (I can't find the base tooltip value of Ele Explosion) that hits harder than Merciless outside of ultimates.

Only conclusion to draw here is to nerf a dead sorc skill obviously

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Erinyes_60 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Who are you fighting to not see higher than 10k spec bows? That skill is literally the hardest hitting skill in the game.

Who were you fighting if spectral is your highest hitting skill? 'Cause I definitely hit harder with less hassle than I did with spectral.

Thats just not how the game works though lol. Again, Merciless is the hardest hitting non-ultimate skill in the game. That's not opinion, that's just fact.

merci was the highest hitting ultimate NB had and its not even an ultimate. Now it has been doubled and given to everyone lol

Pretty much, there are very few ultimates (like fewer than 5) that hit harder than Merciless, and Merciless can be fired every 5 seconds. There are zero non ultimate single target skills that hit harder than Merciless. In fact, there might not be any skill (I can't find the base tooltip value of Ele Explosion) that hits harder than Merciless outside of ultimates.

Only conclusion to draw here is to nerf a dead sorc skill obviously

Don't forget the absolute hassle of needing to wait 5 seconds before your first Merciless. What ever will nightblades do??

And the worst part is that they have to keep one of the worst skill lines if they still want to use merciless. No good passives, no broken ult/execute/spammable that also happens to proc off balance, no nothing D;

Erinyes_60 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

On the same build
Crystal weapon tooltips for 10513 + 4205
Dizzy tooltips for 15792
merciless tooltips for 26221
dawnbreaker tooltips for 23542

Yeah if I know 2+2 as well as I think I do, I think 26k is higher than 10k+4k

So a spammable designed to reduce costs, so more spam, reaching the tooltip of dizzying - which is just in melee range - is perfectly ok to you. I've had blighted blastbones sometimes do more damage than merciless. Which would be perfectly ok. If it weren't AoE damage. And defile. But let's be honest, you neglecting to mention that Dawnbreak is also an AOE a DOT and potentially a stun speaks volumes... All of these being better tools against healers than spectral, which was my original point btw.

But the numbers?! Ofc a single target wind up skill will has a higher tool tip. Do you even take averages into account tho? Sorcs...

Pvp has not been in a sustained spammable damage meta, well actually since vengeance. Otherwise last I remember was back in like 2015. A skill that scales worse and does less wont do any better after 20x or 30x its all relative. The only thing that matters now adays is waiting for your proc dlc gear and then doing a boring rehearsed ult drop rotation. Not sure why we all had to turn to this playstyle, but zos commands it.

Your original point was you couldn't kill someone. IMO just post your build so we can help point out issues and help you learn more.

Erinyes_60 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

On the same build
Crystal weapon tooltips for 10513 + 4205
Dizzy tooltips for 15792
merciless tooltips for 26221
dawnbreaker tooltips for 23542

Yeah if I know 2+2 as well as I think I do, I think 26k is higher than 10k+4k

So a spammable designed to reduce costs, so more spam, reaching the tooltip of dizzying - which is just in melee range - is perfectly ok to you. I've had blighted blastbones sometimes do more damage than merciless. Which would be perfectly ok. If it weren't AoE damage. And defile. But let's be honest, you neglecting to mention that Dawnbreak is also an AOE a DOT and potentially a stun speaks volumes... All of these being better tools against healers than spectral, which was my original point btw.

But the numbers?! Ofc a single target wind up skill will has a higher tool tip. Do you even take averages into account tho? Sorcs...

Can blastbones hit harder than Merciless in the right circumstances? Sure, but run CMX and you'll find that Merciless will hit harder on average and reach higher peaks. Blastbones has a much lower coefficient than Merciless. Yes, you may see it hit harder occasionally but you're either not paying attention or being disingenuous if you're trying to say that it hits harder than Merciless consistently, because that's objectively false.

Erinyes_60 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Erinyes_60 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

On the same build
Crystal weapon tooltips for 10513 + 4205
Dizzy tooltips for 15792
merciless tooltips for 26221
dawnbreaker tooltips for 23542

Yeah if I know 2+2 as well as I think I do, I think 26k is higher than 10k+4k

So a spammable designed to reduce costs, so more spam, reaching the tooltip of dizzying - which is just in melee range - is perfectly ok to you. I've had blighted blastbones sometimes do more damage than merciless. Which would be perfectly ok. If it weren't AoE damage. And defile. But let's be honest, you neglecting to mention that Dawnbreak is also an AOE a DOT and potentially a stun speaks volumes... All of these being better tools against healers than spectral, which was my original point btw.

But the numbers?! Ofc a single target wind up skill will has a higher tool tip. Do you even take averages into account tho? Sorcs...

Can blastbones hit harder than Merciless in the right circumstances? Sure, but run CMX and you'll find that Merciless will hit harder on average and reach higher peaks. Blastbones has a much lower coefficient than Merciless. Yes, you may see it hit harder occasionally but you're either not paying attention or being disingenuous if you're trying to say that it hits harder than Merciless consistently, because that's objectively false.

When did I say consistently? You're the ones claiming Merciless is ult level damage every time. Which is not true.

Except this is true.

If you have a Merciless cast that does less damage than expected, an ult cast at the same time would have done even less.

Again, Merciless has a higher tooltip than almost any other skill in the game. Thats not opinion, that's fact.

I'm also not sure why you think Merciless is some "on occasion nuke", when it can be used every 5 seconds, and can sometimes be used back to back.

Erinyes_60 wrote: »

When did I say consistently? You're the ones claiming Merciless is ult level damage every time. Which is not true.

But it IS true.

Here's the base level numbers for the following ultimate abilities that have upfront burst components, (i.e. not pure damage over time). These tooltips (as can be referenced on the Wiki build editor linked in spoiler below), are with base tooltips only, with zero modifiers (removing additional factors like MR damage stacks, incap debuff or the assassination passives that buff MR even further):

• Leap (DK) - 4241 (or 5037 for the take flight morph)
• Dawnbreaker - 2904 + 580/s DoT (or 3600 + 719/s DoT for DBoS morph)
• Meteor - 4065 + 1161/s ground based DoT (4620 + 1319 for frost morph)
• Berserkers Strike (2h) - 3486 damage (3600 when morphed)
• Death Stroke (NB) - 3716 damage (3840 for incap or 4223 when incap + 120 or more ult)
• Sweep (Plar) - 2323 damage + 580/s DoT (DoT is 1161 but only ticks every 2 seconds instead of every second)
• Bear secondary ability (Warden/wild morph) - 3697 damage

Here is Grim Focus tooltip, base tooltip, zero modifiers:

• Grim Focus - 4182 (4752 if Merciless Resolve morph) (ranged) can be stacked to hit twice back to back

Here are some commonly compared abilities to Spec bow:

• Curse - 2999 damage (haunting morph) with a secondary hit 5 seconds later for same damage (ranged)
• Armaments - 3452 (863 x 4) can save for "double cast" like MR (ranged)
• Frags - 2483 (4121 for frags proc) (ranged)
• Blast Bones - 3600 damage (+ diseased status) (ranged)
• Whip - 2323 (4238 when at 3 stacks) (melee)
• Deep Fissue - 2591 with a secondary hit 6 seconds later for 3600 damage

Given that spec bow can be double cast, lets also look at multi-hit abilities totals instead of individual hits:

• Spec Bow has a base tooltip of 8364 damage (or 9504 for the MR morph).
• Curse has a tooltip (assuming both procs hit) of 5998 damage
• Frags only hits once and is RNG based (so might be lucky for 2 back to back, but can also get 10+ casts without a single proc) for a tooltip of 4121
• Blast bones is a single hit per cast of 3600
• Whip is a single proc'd hit for 4238, but is melee range only
• Armaments can be saved for double cast and has 6904 if all 8 hits land (which takes nearly 3 seconds)
• Deep Fissue has 6191 damage assuming both hits land

For the Ultimates listed above that also have a DoT component as well as the burst component, lets assume ALL ticks of the DoT lands:

• DBoS is 7914 damage over 6 seconds
• Meteor is 16836 (over 11 seconds, so can full stack MR again in this duration for 4 total casts of MR over this same duration of Meteor)
• Sweep is 5806 over 6 seconds
• Leap, berserkers strike, Incap and bear secondary ability don't have bonus DoTs, so numbers remain as above.

As we can see:

• The closest non-ultimate ability to MR in terms of raw damage (not counting secondary effects or other outside buffs) is Bound Armaments that takes a full 2.5 seconds (basically 3 GCDs) to deal all of its damage, and that is still ~28% weaker than MR that deals it's damage over 2 GCDs.
• The only burst ultimate ability that beats MR, has a long duration ground based DoT that skews the damage numbers since it can be easily walked out of due to being ground locked and the DoT ticks for long enough that realistically it's possible to cast and restack MR multiple times over the same duration as that single ultimate which brings it even more back in favor of MR on top of that ultimate's burst components being behind a single MR cast.

Spec Bow (especially the Merciless Resolve morph) IS an ultimate level ability in terms of base damage alone, not even including all the secondary effects it grants (full heal if melee + additional weapon/spell damage) or can take advantage of (incap debuff, assassination passives, cloak guaranteed crit, etc). It also doesn't matter which way we look into the numbers, the numbers will always show that Spec Bow is dealing ultimate levels of damage (more than most ultimates, especially since it can be double cast now which puts it way ahead of the one ultimate that did deal more damage than it before U46) and also does significantly more (minimum 28% more) damage than any comparable non-ultimate ability, most of which have forced delays that MR doesn't have thanks to being able to hold 2 casts for a back to back proc.

Wiki build editor linked in following spoiler, so anyone/everyone can see/compare the tooltips for themselves: