Vengeance Campaign: Not much testing when one faction has overwhelming numbers

HumbleThaumaturge · July 3

The purpose of the Vengeance campaign is to collect data, yes?

At times (like right this moment as I type this) one faction vastly outnumbers the other two factions. Not much useful test data I would imagine. And, since Vengeance campaign is not alliance locked for its 24-hour duration, players are (naturally) swapping characters to the faction with the most numbers.

So how about this for Vengeance testing: When a player logs in, they are assigned to one faction, and faction assignments are altered to give balanced numbers in all three factions? Wouldn't you get better test data? How much test data can you get when 4 dozen players steamroller 1 dozen players? When one faction takes the whole map during a double-AP event, it pretty much puts an end to the event-play until they eventually log off.

LPapirius · July 3

Vengeance mode is a no skill zerg fest. It's more like PvE. Vengeance mode the only thing that matters is who has the bigger......um, group.

Malyore · July 3

Turning a corner and seeing a group of 50 Dominion players buzzing around like angry hornets...

LadyGP · July 3

This is what happens when you put everyone on the same playing field and make it even.

Everyone shouts from the roof tops "no ball groups no pulls" but then complains because the game is a zerg fest.

You literally can only win a fight if you're a zerg. It's just a front line wins PVP MMO - not sustainable or fun.

They need diversity in play styles......

Oblivion_Protocol · July 4

ZoS isn’t using Vengeance to test gameplay. They’re testing performance and seeing what, exactly, is contributing to the lag. They don’t care about zergs or ball groups or faction stacks, and really never have.

katanagirl1 · July 5

I wondered about it being faction locked, I did not check.

Regardless, I would not want to be assigned to a faction to even out the population. I want to fight with the players I know who are my usual teammates.

Markytous · July 5

Regardless of who's winning, the server is supporting the play of overwhelming numbers. That means the servers are maintaining these said numbers. Working as intended.

AngryPenguin · July 5

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I wondered about it being faction locked, I did not check.

Regardless, I would not want to be assigned to a faction to even out the population. I want to fight with the players I know who are my usual teammates.

Vengeance mode is not faction locked.

AngryPenguin · July 5

Markytous wrote: »

Regardless of who's winning, the server is supporting the play of overwhelming numbers. That means the servers are maintaining these said numbers. Working as intended.

No it's not.

Server performance this time around is notably WORSE than normal live Cyrodiil PvP. Latency and frame rate are both way worse in vengeance mode this time around than it is regular Cyro.

Markytous · July 5

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Regardless of who's winning, the server is supporting the play of overwhelming numbers. That means the servers are maintaining these said numbers. Working as intended.

No it's not.

Server performance this time around is notably WORSE than normal live Cyrodiil PvP. Latency and frame rate are both way worse in vengeance mode this time around than it is regular Cyro.

You keep saying this but it's just wrong. You and your 8 friends with a narrative to protect your ballgroups, procs and blocktanks.

ForumBully · July 5

Markytous wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Regardless of who's winning, the server is supporting the play of overwhelming numbers. That means the servers are maintaining these said numbers. Working as intended.

No it's not.

Server performance this time around is notably WORSE than normal live Cyrodiil PvP. Latency and frame rate are both way worse in vengeance mode this time around than it is regular Cyro.

You keep saying this but it's just wrong. You and your 8 friends with a narrative to protect your ballgroups, procs and blocktanks.

Lie or not, it will be supported by data or it won't be. If it's a lie, I see no benefit when data will show otherwise. I haven't experienced poor performance on Xbox NA at all during Vengeance.

Varana · July 5

From my experience, even when your side is temporarily on a losing streak, it will balance out again, relatively soon. Usually because some group just goes on the offensive somewhere, and there's enough groups running around to sustain that (unlike normal Cyrodiil where "one group" is more or less the entire population).

Jaavaa · July 5

There is no difference in Performance on xbox eu. There is a much worse performance on xbox na for me.

Minnesinger · July 5

LadyGP wrote: »

This is what happens when you put everyone on the same playing field and make it even.

Everyone shouts from the roof tops "no ball groups no pulls" but then complains because the game is a zerg fest.

You literally can only win a fight if you're a zerg. It's just a front line wins PVP MMO - not sustainable or fun.

They need diversity in play styles......

This type of a message is mistakenly often citated when the map turns into a color of red, blue or yellow. The type of ball groups I have seen playing in GH/ NA run at the head of general zerg and do contribute more to the imbalanced game rather than balance. Why! Because they have fixed times when they play and the campaign is locked for the duration. What is needed to balance is the equal populations and as little ball groups as possible or that they actually seek to play other ball groups rather that just farm pugs.

katanagirl1 · July 5

AngryPenguin wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I wondered about it being faction locked, I did not check.

Regardless, I would not want to be assigned to a faction to even out the population. I want to fight with the players I know who are my usual teammates.

Vengeance mode is not faction locked.

I understand that. Wondered = past tense.

katanagirl1 · July 5

Markytous wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Regardless of who's winning, the server is supporting the play of overwhelming numbers. That means the servers are maintaining these said numbers. Working as intended.

No it's not.

Server performance this time around is notably WORSE than normal live Cyrodiil PvP. Latency and frame rate are both way worse in vengeance mode this time around than it is regular Cyro.

You keep saying this but it's just wrong. You and your 8 friends with a narrative to protect your ballgroups, procs and blocktanks.

Performance has been worse for me on PS NA. I’m on PS5.

AngryPenguin · July 5

Markytous wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Regardless of who's winning, the server is supporting the play of overwhelming numbers. That means the servers are maintaining these said numbers. Working as intended.

No it's not.

Server performance this time around is notably WORSE than normal live Cyrodiil PvP. Latency and frame rate are both way worse in vengeance mode this time around than it is regular Cyro.

You keep saying this but it's just wrong. You and your 8 friends with a narrative to protect your ballgroups, procs and blocktanks.

You're clearly just tired of getting rolled in regular live PvP. So your thinking is to strip the system down and remove the skill gap in PvP so you can compete.

On PC NA the server performance has been as bad or worse than regular cyrodiil live. That's just an unfortunate fact.

FullMax · July 5

In another thread I suggested adding another Daedric artifact to Cyrodiil, Wabbajack, to give the weaker team a chance to win.
Everyone voted against it)

Desiato · July 5

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

ZoS isn’t using Vengeance to test gameplay. They’re testing performance and seeing what, exactly, is contributing to the lag. They don’t care about zergs or ball groups or faction stacks, and really never have.

They're slowly expanding functionality to see what is sustainable.

In the bigger picture for the next test, they should identify PVP communities in other games that would enjoy open world pvp and issue a limited number of invite codes for a standalone vengeance client. This should be easy to do.

Half the problem right now are the players. This game doesn't have a real pvp audience. Even most cyro regulars probably don't play other pvp games outside of eso. These are contemporary eso players who need a reward for every single thing they do. Fans of pvp games just want good fights. In this forum there are players complaining the login rewards aren't good enough!

Remember early cyro? oticks were tiny. If you wanted ap, players had to die.

TheMajority · July 6

Desiato wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

ZoS isn’t using Vengeance to test gameplay. They’re testing performance and seeing what, exactly, is contributing to the lag. They don’t care about zergs or ball groups or faction stacks, and really never have.

They're slowly expanding functionality to see what is sustainable.

In the bigger picture for the next test, they should identify PVP communities in other games that would enjoy open world pvp and issue a limited number of invite codes for a standalone vengeance client. This should be easy to do.

Half the problem right now are the players. This game doesn't have a real pvp audience. Even most cyro regulars probably don't play other pvp games outside of eso. These are contemporary eso players who need a reward for every single thing they do. Fans of pvp games just want good fights. In this forum there are players complaining the login rewards aren't good enough!

Remember early cyro? oticks were tiny. If you wanted ap, players had to die.

thats not even a sustainable games model if you do something then get rewarded otherwise a total waste of time

"hard core" pvp players ask about rewards all the time don't pretend somehow people who dont are better at pvp or more real pvp player, thats just not truth

Kartalin · July 6

Performance on PC/NA has been great for the most part. Once it gets to 350-400* people in one place fighting it dips a bit.

*based on Miat’s player counter (part of the Miat’s addon)

HumbleThaumaturge · July 6

AngryPenguin wrote: »

On PC NA the server performance has been as bad or worse than regular cyrodiil live. That's just an unfortunate fact.

I've been playing a lot in the Vengeance campaign on both the North American PC server and the EU PC server. I'd say 99 percent of the time performance has been great. Just 5 times in maybe 30 to 40 hours of game play did I have a problem: In the middle of combat, pressed a button and nothing happened. Personally, I've been really impressed with the performance. I've been getting over 200 frames per second on both the NA PC and EU servers and have not noticed pauses or stutters or jumps other than the very few times the keys stopped operating for a second or two.

Actually, since the lack of key response only occurred during combat . . . I wonder if the cause was . . . I was dead on the server, but my computer hadn't updated for that fact yet???? Evidence of a bit of lag, maybe? But, as I said, it only occurred maybe five times.

A few years ago, I was angry at ZOS for poor performance in Cyrodiil. But then game performance improved massively when I replaced my modem and router. Who knew?

If you experience lag, you might try resetting your modem and router. Also, if the option is available, set your router to give your gaming computer top priority. You might also turn off most Add-Ons while you are in Cyrodiil. Lastly, you could try a web search for: ESO fps hacks.

BXR_Lonestar · July 7

LadyGP wrote: »

This is what happens when you put everyone on the same playing field and make it even.

Everyone shouts from the roof tops "no ball groups no pulls" but then complains because the game is a zerg fest.

You literally can only win a fight if you're a zerg. It's just a front line wins PVP MMO - not sustainable or fun.

They need diversity in play styles......

This isn't true per se....

So in MOST instances, in Vengeance, the group with bigger numbers is going to win. The exception to that general rule though, is keep defenses, where smaller numbers of players, if played right, can hold a keep against larger numbers. I've seen several fights in Vengeance now where a smaller force held the inner keep because the players holding it knew what they were doing. They knew how to run siege, use crowd control to maximize the effect of the seige, etc. But this is just in ONE situation only - playing defense.

In all other situations, the only thing that will dictate wins and losses is numbers

ForumBully · July 7

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

This is what happens when you put everyone on the same playing field and make it even.

Everyone shouts from the roof tops "no ball groups no pulls" but then complains because the game is a zerg fest.

You literally can only win a fight if you're a zerg. It's just a front line wins PVP MMO - not sustainable or fun.

They need diversity in play styles......

This isn't true per se....

So in MOST instances, in Vengeance, the group with bigger numbers is going to win. The exception to that general rule though, is keep defenses, where smaller numbers of players, if played right, can hold a keep against larger numbers. I've seen several fights in Vengeance now where a smaller force held the inner keep because the players holding it knew what they were doing. They knew how to run siege, use crowd control to maximize the effect of the seige, etc. But this is just in ONE situation only - playing defense.

In all other situations, the only thing that will dictate wins and losses is numbers

I played a healer at several points during Vengeance and found that dedicated healers were often able to able to turn the tide in outnumbered fights.

GloatingSwine · July 7

It's my understanding that vengeance is a performance stress testing environment.

That being the case, getting huge balls of players all spamming the maximum amount of abilities and having maxed out siege engines working full time is the best way to generate data.

xylena_lazarow · July 7

LadyGP wrote: »

Everyone shouts from the roof tops "no ball groups no pulls" but then complains because the game is a zerg fest.

Uh no all we asked for is Meatbags which would solve most of the problem, not broken unfun crap that only a handful of sweatlords with a love for hours and hours of outside-game logistics are ever going to ever access.

Ostonoha · July 7

It was always going to turn into a Zerg v Zerg

As much as I would love to return to the old 500v500v500 map. The game does not have that kind of PvP population anymore. Yes on weekends during prime time and of course when there are rewards and the added novelty of a new system the population can reach those numbers.

But from what I’m seeing reported a lot of people enjoy the vengeance style PvP. But in terms of the population caps. in 2-3 months after these numbers are increased the map will be painted by one faction based on who has the superior numbers.

Unless the population that pvps on a daily basis increases overnight. Which I hate to say it is not going to happen. You will almost always have one faction steamrolling the map with numbers. The low pop cap is the only thing that prevents that from happening. Unless we had dynamic pop caps based on ques.

ForumBully · July 7

It's hard to believe after more than 10 years people are outraged by zerg v zerg. That IS the game. There were more windows for small scale and solo play when barely anyone was interested in the campaign, that's for sure. There were absolutely no tools to help deal with zergs in Vengeance, but that is something that can be added without calls to return to a format that was losing players.

Sluggy · July 7

TheMajority wrote: »

thats not even a sustainable games model if you do something then get rewarded otherwise a total waste of time
...

Not sustainable? Waste of time? That's the definition of games!

What's the reward for years of playing Chess? Mario Brothers? DnD? Am I wasting my time while playing them? Was the enjoyment I got from the simple act of playing them completely invalid?

If the game itself isn't reward and incentive enough then either the game is not well made or the player playing it isn't the target audience of what it offers.

wenchmore420b14_ESO · July 7

Kartalin wrote: »

Performance on PC/NA has been great for the most part. Once it gets to 350-400* people in one place fighting it dips a bit.

*based on Miat’s player counter (part of the Miat’s addon)

Agree^ I have experienced great performance (PCNA) during event. I have crashed twice during event so far and that was with HUGE amounts of people during a siege . Hope Cyrodiil will play this nice when it goes back live.

TheMajority · July 7

Sluggy wrote: »

TheMajority wrote: »

thats not even a sustainable games model if you do something then get rewarded otherwise a total waste of time
...

Not sustainable? Waste of time? That's the definition of games!

What's the reward for years of playing Chess? Mario Brothers? DnD? Am I wasting my time while playing them? Was the enjoyment I got from the simple act of playing them completely invalid?

If the game itself isn't reward and incentive enough then either the game is not well made or the player playing it isn't the target audience of what it offers.

DnD is rewarded with items discovered during play and character development

Mario Brothers rewards the player by winning levels and beating the game

Chess players have professional reward systems too

PVP system needs a reward system or people are not going to be drawn to it. It needs a way to show you "won" plain and simple, as all these other games do.