To The Hard Core End Game PvP Group

JohnRingo · July 6

Gentlemen and ladies, for context, I am a level 2500+ 2x Grand Warlord on console. PvP solo main for 10 years. Now with that out of the way, if I may offer my humble opinion, my people in this game are console end game PvP dedicated soldiers who have spent countless hours grinding to optimize their builds. Years of dedication to our PvP craft. We deserve a space in whatever ESO ultimately decides. Why roll out subclassing and then restrict it from the main PvP campaign (Vengeance)? I do not see this as a binary choice. If Vengeance is successful in testing then let it exist in a separate campaign along with current Cyrodil LIve. Perhaps, a training ground for Cyrodil Live PvP as it exists today.

But mark my words, and I believe I know my veteran PvP brothers, those who have fought with me and against me for years, we see you PvP tourists taking this opportunistic way to attack the unrestricted PvP that we have invested in for years. This is where we end game PvP players live and where we have toiled years. We take pride in our status. If you want to experience true PvP, instead of mindless stripped down PvP Vengeance nonsense, join my bothers in current live Cyrodil following Vengeance testing and we will welcome you.

May I quote @Indigogo from several years ago on these forums regarding tourists in our Cyrodil: "Offer them no patience. Show them no mercy. Take no prisoners and leave no survivors. Defend the keeps and castles with every last arrow. This is our land and no one shall take it from thee. We will not relent nor shall we show compassion. No sign of weakness shall emanate from our souls. For we have nothing else left but the will and might of our army. With our strength we shall defend this land. This is our home. This is Cyrodil" (much respect to @Indigogo).

Sorry for the strong language, gents but this is how I feel. I am a PvP main and I like our world for bad or good. These appear to be interesting times for the future of end game PvP. Best not to be silent.

Heren · July 6

M'kay.

xR3ACTORx · July 6

Agree. First rolling out subclassing without a double xp bonus, then restricting builds.. Seriously?

On top of that there is a trading event going on and the most anticipated pvp gear since subclassing can't be bought at cyro vendors.

Not to forget there is only one Imperial City instance in Xbox EU for tel var farming during this trading event, cause non cp IC is broken since vengeance.

Tbh ZOS really didn't do well on planning this properly on consoles.

Stoney_McGeee · July 6

ya i cant believe they are even considering this kinda change.

Spent years grinding to be able to login and just go on my master crafter , and make a build, take it to pvp.

Now its completely pointless to even grind in pve? lmao

make it make sense.

Darethran · July 6

They are literally just doing this for testing cyrodiil performance. Why are you all acting like the world ends on the 8th?

MincMincMinc · July 6

"I am a dedicated PvPer" 2s later "no i do not want zos to test and try to improve pvp to what it used to be"

Mindless is quite the choice of a word too. Imo after 10 years of solo and small man pvp basically everyone I ran into preferred vengeance. The illusion of choice on live is a joke for theory crafting. Combat where the only "skill" comes with having the right proc tracker addons isn't any less mindless. Theory crafting in general has boiled down to bug hunting and exploiting. Otherwise numerically if you are not running acuity+onslaught or acuity+balorgh you are at 1/2 your potential.

Not that I want the current vengeance as the final experience, however there are many who like eso because of the combat skill system. Probably just as many who like the gear system. I certainly prefer combat through and through, but gear I would prefer a more stat driven system that plays into the skill system. Atleast during the fury, 7th, ravager, briar, clever, Sword-singer, dancer era there were far more choices and they all depended on you actively using skills to make use of the sets. After Fury got changed to the weird timer buildup concept zos got it in their heads that people in pvp want to stare at cooldowns while being defensive for "fun combat" It is boring, slow and enables stall tank type gameplay.....which is why every other week people complain about Oh its a tank meta.

So imagine taking vengeance as the blank slate. Then going through adding back in systems and redoing the code as you go. Cutting the decade of patching and hotfixing. Not to hard to rebalance to a current standard. Perhaps 99% of the population wont just use triglyphs anymore, maybe they get balanced. Maybe Mag+health or Mag+stam or Stam+health glyphs get added. etc etc etc.

Blackrim · July 6

I'm happy you like the test but I don't believe this is a genuine solution to problems.

I think Zenimax needs to buff certain damage related subclasses to make them all equal to one another. It will result in faster fights and less lag overall. More importantly, it will encourage more creativity in the long run. As it is right now PvP is overpopulated with the population cap. If they ever raise the cap for PvP at night in Greyhost there would be double the amount of players on the field playing as there are currently.

wenchmore420b14_ESO · July 7

Ok, I'm just gonna jump in here. You realize what the Vengeance campaign is about, right? This is NOT a replacement for GH or other campaigns.
It is a "Stress Test" for data gathering to improve Cyrodill and performance in PvP.
I have played since 2013 Beta. I play on PC. The performance and playability on PC has been horrible for many years now.
This test campaign is the most fun Ive had in PvP since 2014-2015.
But my point is, it's a test, not a replacement. Hear it from Brian Wheeler about what it is about. Happy hunting! Huzzah!

xR3ACTORx · July 7

I can see lots of projection going on in some comments.

But hey, everyone knows it's a test.
Does that mean people aren't allowed to have opinions about a test anymore?
Does that means people aren't allowed to speak their concerns anymore?

It's nice that you have fun in vengeance on pc with much higher player population, but on Xbox EU vengeance killed cyro.

That was predictable. Predictable as it was predictable that BG Rework would kill BGs on Console.

Edit:

There ain't any proc trackers on console 🤷

colossalvoids · July 7

Generalisation isn't helping your cause. Instead of "I've eaten this dirt for years, that's my soil!" attitude larger modern PvP community that embraced the current form it took and stayed / joined in recent five years can see an opportunity in this building block that's getting formed. Sure it's a square one, a reset of sorts but population that's fine with current thing is not there anymore. Some set and ruleset adjustments aren't cutting it that's the whole point of it.

Think not only about your personal comfort but about things like other players around you there, are they having fun, the onboarding process and broader picture than your group you're playing with currently. Apparently people do want to PvP still, some want to return to the game they've loved but can't currently die to cascade of bad decisions. While those people are looking around you should strike while it's still somewhat hot to maybe one day make a fire as it was back in the day. If you're the heart of PvP community that stayed or formed recently you'd take an opportunity to decide what's the next building block would be installed of throwing this one into the dirt. But that's my 2c, you do you.

MincMincMinc · July 7

Blackrim wrote: »

I'm happy you like the test but I don't believe this is a genuine solution to problems.

I think Zenimax needs to buff certain damage related subclasses to make them all equal to one another. It will result in faster fights and less lag overall. More importantly, it will encourage more creativity in the long run. As it is right now PvP is overpopulated with the population cap. If they ever raise the cap for PvP at night in Greyhost there would be double the amount of players on the field playing as there are currently.

Nobody has said it is a solution, just people like to create their own fantasy to hate. Wild how you can oppose the test to improve performance, and then in the same thought process ask to improve performance.

The current meta that popped up within the first week of pts subclassing only shows how bad live is in terms of power creep and stat balance. People these days are just going down the list of stacking the clearly unopposed best stats. Simply adjusting stats would do nothing to improve performance. Making the TTK shorter could even worsen performance. With the recent vengeance test we can see that group healing, buffing, stacking of effects makes an obvious drain on the server. Forcing players to huddle for warmth even more may only reinforce the playstyle causing issues in the first place. To begin making claims like this you first need data.....which you get from tests.....which people oppose

Pvp is hardly overpopulated, live GH sits at 1/4 the old population. The now extra campaigns are beyond dead and do not have enough population to be remotely functional. IC is dead 99% of the time. BGs die out because mmr is reset so frequently the high mmr players need to spend a week or two every patch before they can fight each other.

Population is only going to dwindle as old players burn out and new players never get started. Again lowbie and nocp Cyro is non functional because it doesn't have a stable population. IC isnt worth the risk. Dueling is rough without a teacher. Bgs WOULD be a good learning experience, except every match has a high mmr reset player going 40/0. Usually the only reason they are not going 50/0 or higher is simply because the time it takes to run between targets or for them to respawn and want to drop down.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · July 7

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Blackrim wrote: »

I'm happy you like the test but I don't believe this is a genuine solution to problems.

I think Zenimax needs to buff certain damage related subclasses to make them all equal to one another. It will result in faster fights and less lag overall. More importantly, it will encourage more creativity in the long run. As it is right now PvP is overpopulated with the population cap. If they ever raise the cap for PvP at night in Greyhost there would be double the amount of players on the field playing as there are currently.

Nobody has said it is a solution, just people like to create their own fantasy to hate. Wild how you can oppose the test to improve performance, and then in the same thought process ask to improve performance.

The current meta that popped up within the first week of pts subclassing only shows how bad live is in terms of power creep and stat balance. People these days are just going down the list of stacking the clearly unopposed best stats. Simply adjusting stats would do nothing to improve performance. Making the TTK shorter could even worsen performance. With the recent vengeance test we can see that group healing, buffing, stacking of effects makes an obvious drain on the server. Forcing players to huddle for warmth even more may only reinforce the playstyle causing issues in the first place. To begin making claims like this you first need data.....which you get from tests.....which people oppose

Pvp is hardly overpopulated, live GH sits at 1/4 the old population. The now extra campaigns are beyond dead and do not have enough population to be remotely functional. IC is dead 99% of the time. BGs die out because mmr is reset so frequently the high mmr players need to spend a week or two every patch before they can fight each other.

Population is only going to dwindle as old players burn out and new players never get started. Again lowbie and nocp Cyro is non functional because it doesn't have a stable population. IC isnt worth the risk. Dueling is rough without a teacher. Bgs WOULD be a good learning experience, except every match has a high mmr reset player going 40/0. Usually the only reason they are not going 50/0 or higher is simply because the time it takes to run between targets or for them to respawn and want to drop down.

I understand where you’re coming from, and I completely agree that performance is a huge issue, especially after subclassing went live. I’m not against the idea of testing to gather data. But honestly, based on how the devs are talking about it this time, it really sounds like they’re considering making Vengeance a permanent addition in some form down the line.

From talking with other endgame PvP players and reading the forums, it’s clear most of the dedicated community doesn’t enjoy Vengeance at all. I get the concern about new players and low populations—those are real problems. But anything close to what Vengeance is offering right now just isn’t enough for the current open-world PvP base. Small scalers, solo players, and ball groups I’ve spoken with have no interest in playing these tests.

You can’t strip away so much of the game and expect people to have the same experience they get in regular PvP. If they want Vengeance to work long-term, they have to retain the endgame community too. At the pace they’re adding content, it could take years before it even comes close.

They needed a much more aggressive approach this time—adding sets, all the simplified skills, maybe even scribing and subclassing. The community clearly wants way more depth and variety than what Vengeance currently offers. If the plan really is to make it permanent someday, they need to find a real balance between attracting new players and keeping the dedicated PvP crowd engaged.

Sluggy · July 8

Blackrim wrote: »

...As it is right now PvP is overpopulated with the population cap. If they ever raise the cap for PvP at night in Greyhost there would be double the amount of players on the field playing as there are currently.

Wha? Huh? Are we talking about live here? Are we even talking about the same game? Some nights I'd search around on a poplocked map for forty minutes and find two fights: one in a tower with a couple of trolls and another on the opposite side of the map with a ballgroups... and that's overpopulated?

JohnRingo · July 9

Anybody notice the Vengeance 3 Test announcement? Seems to be moving along quite quickly to me:

Cyrodiil Vengeance Testing Round 3!

Various systems have been turned on for this testing round to see what overhead they could contribute to overall performance. Skyshards, Mount Selection (along with any collectibles allowed in Cyrodiil), Titles, and Achievements have been re-enabled.
Meatbag Catapults are back, however they no longer leave a ground lingering effect and only effect players on impact.
Mages and Fighters Guild lines have been added, again, with tailored abilities for performance.
A new armor skill line has been added which includes all three active abilities for light, medium and heavy armor, tailored for performance.

SeaGtGruff · July 9

JohnRingo wrote: »

we see you PvP tourists taking this opportunistic way to attack the unrestricted PvP that we have invested in for years.

LOL, wut? So anyone who criticizes the reliance on proc sets or whatever else you consider to be "unrestricted PvP" is a "PvP tourist"? That seems rather dismissive, assumptive, and judgy.

Sluggy · July 9

JohnRingo wrote: »

Anybody notice the Vengeance 3 Test announcement? Seems to be moving along quite quickly to me:

Cyrodiil Vengeance Testing Round 3!

Various systems have been turned on for this testing round to see what overhead they could contribute to overall performance. Skyshards, Mount Selection (along with any collectibles allowed in Cyrodiil), Titles, and Achievements have been re-enabled.
Meatbag Catapults are back, however they no longer leave a ground lingering effect and only effect players on impact.
Mages and Fighters Guild lines have been added, again, with tailored abilities for performance.
A new armor skill line has been added which includes all three active abilities for light, medium and heavy armor, tailored for performance.

Good! They needed to be pumping out tests like every month at the minimum! Make em shorter if they think it will disrupt normal play. But if they keep at the pace of one every quarter it'll take another two or three years at that rate!

Coo_PnT · July 9

Please tell us specifically what you think true PvP is.

I love the Vengeance campaign because it allows beginners and seasoned players to fight on the same playing field. I also think it's great that there is no PvP performance rating, so you can play very casually. I think ZoS will continue to focus on the Vengeance campaign, but I hope they will steer the ship in a direction that will keep people from leaving and increase the player base.

Darethran · July 9

JohnRingo wrote: »

Anybody notice the Vengeance 3 Test announcement? Seems to be moving along quite quickly to me:

Cyrodiil Vengeance Testing Round 3!

Various systems have been turned on for this testing round to see what overhead they could contribute to overall performance. Skyshards, Mount Selection (along with any collectibles allowed in Cyrodiil), Titles, and Achievements have been re-enabled.
Meatbag Catapults are back, however they no longer leave a ground lingering effect and only effect players on impact.
Mages and Fighters Guild lines have been added, again, with tailored abilities for performance.
A new armor skill line has been added which includes all three active abilities for light, medium and heavy armor, tailored for performance.

Where did you find this? There's no mention of it on the forums, site, or launcher.

Edit: Also the whole PvP tourist thing is hilariously sad. A player that has to rely on his damage formula being higher from nerding out on PvE for years vs other players complains about character stats & gear being equalised. If you actually enjoy PvP, you want a good fight based on who plays their character better.

But if you want your better gear stats and your champion points to carry you, you don't like PvP, you just want to win and someone to lose. Then there's us who actually enjoy a good fight, winning or losing doesn't matter because it's all good fun when it's down to how you play, not how many years you've invested in grinding.